164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

[old.iraqi.air.force]

Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Lt. Yunis Motar
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB ...was in CAS mission with other 3 pilots on March 29 1988 .. His Aircraft hit ( unknown by what ) .. Ejected and Iranian troops rushed to him and fired on him so he returned fire with his pistol but he was killed.

For the pilots died in prisons :
Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi ... also Mirage F.1EQ pilot from squadron 91 Abu Ubaida base shut downed over the southern battle field in 1987.... Iran offered to exchange him with anti-regim group probably Mujahidi Khalq but this was refused ... Never heard about him after ... Presumed dead.

Lt. Ali Hameed Aljubori
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wheda AB ..( unknown by what ) Jan 15 1988 over the city of Mot / northern sector ... POW
according to other Pilot from same squadron he was also POW and released after the war ... Died in prison.

Pilot unknown wether in prison or by ground troops
Lt. Ameer Mohammed Mahmood shutdowned
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB was in a mission as No.2 with other Su-22 to attack Shaikh Bdeer camp Oct. 25 1980 but his
aircraft hit the high tension wires while on low flying and had to eject ... No.1 Lt. Mohammed Salman Mohammed saw the Iranian cars rush to him ... Unknown fate wether he was killed on impact or killed by troops or died in prison.

Those who I know about them ... Other pilots unknown fate probably died on impact and Iran never reported their fate....
For examples :
Captain Najdat Ismael Haqi
Su-7 Squadron 8 Abu ubaida AB 1980.... Shutdowned ( unknown cause ) over Saif Saad region ... Unknown fate ... Presumed dead.
Lt. Abdulah Jasim
Su-22 Squadron 5 Wehda AB ... May 2 1982 ....shut downed ( unknown cause ) over Kharomshahr city .. He was No.2 in formation of 2 ...Unknown fate.. Presumed dead

Excuse me be careful and accurate in translation or better not to translated, all the list above on our official website and all these pilots shot down by anti-aircraft guns (which we refer to it in tow characters " م ط ") so the subject talk about air to air kill ratio claim why these names listed here?
The second thing:

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Major Sabah Abdulqadir drop his bombs on taxiing F-4 " and you change the translation to shot down by F-4!!?? and the text clearly mentioned " م ط " means anti-aircraft guns
Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ was reconnaissance Pilot, he was in recon mission filming aluminum plant in Arak benign shot down by SAM and lynched by Iranian people and heir IRGC, which is why Iraqi AF then heavily bombed that city, Iran was proud to show that lynched on television screen
___

how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

[tomcooper]

how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

Sigh... with which we're within realms of science-fiction again...

How would you then describe public hanging of that unfortunate IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah, early during the war?

'Brutality and barbarism', 'war crime', any other ideas...?

Anyway: this (death of that Mirage F.1 pilot in Arak) took place at the height of the II War of the Cities.

Do I have to remind you that Iraqi bombs were killing dozens of Iranian civilians every day at the time...?

Iran has a reasonably free media: if somebody there wants to put a photo showing the body of an Iraqi pilot lynched by a mob, he's free to do so. No religious or military censor is going to object. In this case, it had 'additional effect' of 'warning' Iraqi pilots that were bombing Iranian civilians about what could happen to them if they get shot down while doing so. And, hand at heart: most of Iran-Iraq War was a 'war of messages and signals'.

Again: this is no excuse. But at least the civilians in question have killed a military officer. I.e. a person who volunteered to serve in a military service, a person that knew very well what was he doing, and what could happen to him.

On the contrary; the military officer in question (and his colleagues) were bombing civilians - and that for years. The last I know about such actions, they are considered a 'war crime' in most of civilised world.

This all is simply sad, but absolutely no reason to act beasty and demonise one or the other side.

[oldiaf]

Su-20/22 loss list ( incomplete )

[oldiaf]

Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Lt. Yunis Motar
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB ...was in CAS mission with other 3 pilots on March 29 1988 .. His Aircraft hit ( unknown by what ) .. Ejected and Iranian troops rushed to him and fired on him so he returned fire with his pistol but he was killed.

For the pilots died in prisons :
Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi ... also Mirage F.1EQ pilot from squadron 91 Abu Ubaida base shut downed over the southern battle field in 1987.... Iran offered to exchange him with anti-regim group probably Mujahidi Khalq but this was refused ... Never heard about him after ... Presumed dead.

Lt. Ali Hameed Aljubori
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wheda AB ..( unknown by what ) Jan 15 1988 over the city of Mot / northern sector ... POW
according to other Pilot from same squadron he was also POW and released after the war ... Died in prison.

Pilot unknown wether in prison or by ground troops
Lt. Ameer Mohammed Mahmood shutdowned
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB was in a mission as No.2 with other Su-22 to attack Shaikh Bdeer camp Oct. 25 1980 but his
aircraft hit the high tension wires while on low flying and had to eject ... No.1 Lt. Mohammed Salman Mohammed saw the Iranian cars rush to him ... Unknown fate wether he was killed on impact or killed by troops or died in prison.

Those who I know about them ... Other pilots unknown fate probably died on impact and Iran never reported their fate....
For examples :
Captain Najdat Ismael Haqi
Su-7 Squadron 8 Abu ubaida AB 1980.... Shutdowned ( unknown cause ) over Saif Saad region ... Unknown fate ... Presumed dead.
Lt. Abdulah Jasim
Su-22 Squadron 5 Wehda AB ... May 2 1982 ....shut downed ( unknown cause ) over Kharomshahr city .. He was No.2 in formation of 2 ...Unknown fate.. Presumed dead

Excuse me be careful and accurate in translation or better not to translated, all the list above on our official website and all these pilots shot down by anti-aircraft guns (which we refer to it in tow characters " م ط ") so the subject talk about air to air kill ratio claim why these names listed here?
The second thing:

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Major Sabah Abdulqadir drop his bombs on taxiing F-4 " and you change the translation to shot down by F-4!!?? and the text clearly mentioned " م ط " means anti-aircraft guns
Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ was reconnaissance Pilot, he was in recon mission filming aluminum plant in Arak benign shot down by SAM and lynched by Iranian people and heir IRGC, which is why Iraqi AF then heavily bombed that city, Iran was proud to show that lynched on television screen
___

how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

My apology if I made some mistakes ... But the list is too long and mistakes do happen... My apology again and I count on you to clarify events

[oldiaf]

how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

Sigh... with which we're within realms of science-fiction again...

How would you then describe public hanging of that unfortunate IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah, early during the war?

'Brutality and barbarism', 'war crime', any other ideas...?

Anyway: this (death of that Mirage F.1 pilot in Arak) took place at the height of the II War of the Cities.

Do I have to remind you that Iraqi bombs were killing dozens of Iranian civilians every day at the time...?

Iran has a reasonably free media: if somebody there wants to put a photo showing the body of an Iraqi pilot lynched by a mob, he's free to do so. No religious or military censor is going to object. In this case, it had 'additional effect' of 'warning' Iraqi pilots that were bombing Iranian civilians about what could happen to them if they get shot down while doing so. And, hand at heart: most of Iran-Iraq War was a 'war of messages and signals'.

Again: this is no excuse. But at least the civilians in question have killed a military officer. I.e. a person who volunteered to serve in a military service, a person that knew very well what was he doing, and what could happen to him.

On the contrary; the military officer in question (and his colleagues) were bombing civilians - and that for years. The last I know about such actions, they are considered a 'war crime' in most of civilised world.

This all is simply sad, but absolutely no reason to act beasty and demonise one or the other side.

Of course anything like this is absolute barbarism from any side

[old.iraqi.air.force]

how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

Sigh... with which we're within realms of science-fiction again...

How would you then describe public hanging of that unfortunate IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah, early during the war?

'Brutality and barbarism', 'war crime', any other ideas...?

This thing never happened at all no Iranian pilot or even captured soldier was tortured or hanging (let Iran prove that claims) by videos or photos or their names.
This is one of Iranian barbarism action against Iraqi prisoners during Iraq-Iran war, not to mention killing more than 3,000 Iraqi prisoners between officers and soldiers who have been going around them in the battle of Busaiteen 1 of December 1981 and for that they established the Martyrs Monument in capital Baghdad and became the "Day of the Iraqi martyr"

Do I have to remind you that Iraqi bombs were killing dozens of Iranian civilians every day at the time...?

First you have to remember that Iran who started the war on cities and targeting civilians through shelling city of Basrah by heavy North Korea artillery and other types with rocket launchers and bombing Baghdad by SCUD missiles as well..
Iraqi air force didn't mean to hit or target civilians at all, it was wrong drop bombs caused civilian casualties such as what happened many time in WWII or even in DS 1991.

[oldiaf]

Map of the war of the cities

[old.iraqi.air.force]

My apology if I made some mistakes ... But the list is too long and mistakes do happen... My apology again and I count on you to clarify events

No worry as i always told you, you're more than welcome and feel free if you have any questions and do not hesitate to PM,
And many thanks to all your efforts and your interest with appreciation.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

No. 17 Squadron was an OCU equipped with older variants, such like FLs, PFMs, F-13s, and UMs. It was actually re-activated during preparations for invasion of Iran, with the purpose of protecting Air Academy AB (Tikrit).

All squadron became effective combat units when the war began, even the Su-7 and hawker hunters carried out combat missions early in the war.

With other words: I doubt an-Naqeeb flew a MF on that occassion. Or if: then he didn't serve with No. 17 Squadron.

You mix with another pilot he has the same (family/clan title) name, as well with Nawfal Shaaban you mix with another Nawfal.

So, on what date should he have claimed this F-14?

Earlier months of the war before 1981

Well, there are a few good reasons why you should try to learn more about this gentleman. Primary is that he was trully one of best IrAF fighter pilots ever (and then one not bull-shitting around about his supposed achievements).

Hopefully this part will make sense to the people who never meet or know these pilots in real life, to be an incentive to correct their history properly. To me i grew up under their wills and their tips and we are such one body and one family.
So no need to tell me about both of them, thank you anyway..

Nawfal flew MiG-21bis with No. 47 Squadron, early during the war. Between others, he should've been No. 1 to 1st Lt Abdullah Lau'aybi during a quite famous air combat with F-5s over Suleimaniyah, on 26 October 1980

That's right but Nawfal you refer to is not the same Nawfal Shaaban i mentioned..

Kind of pity... but OK.

This kind of words make no sense if you willing to continue this discussion about aerial combat history.
You know very well English is not my first language and mostly i use google to translate it, so when you ask "Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji" what should i understand it? they're relatives or cousins..etc

[old.iraqi.air.force]

It might sound weird, and is certainly 'news' for many, but Iranian F-14s had no 'heat-seking missiles' as of 1980. They were delivered (in period 1976-1978, i.e. very shortly before the war) together with AIM-54s and M61A-1 Vulcan cannons only: Iranians intended to arm them with AIM-9Ls and AIM-7Fs at a latter date, but these were never delivered - because of 'revolution'...

This is what i informed by the same Su-22 pilot who attack Aghajari power plant, which he was very close of this incident.

No F-14 was lost on that date (that's 100% sure), which is no surprise: R-23 was a terrible weapon ('on pair' only with earlier R-3S, usually described as 'junk' by most of pilots).

OK, if there is no losses on this date or that date..etc, therefore no need to waste our time here,because at the end Iran will deny every single losses to their F-14's (in this case we will enter hot discussion for no reason).
So let's keep this subject on Iranian claims only such 250 kills or 300 or whatever at the end it's just claims no more no less.
Regards

[tomcooper]

This thing never happened at all...

...sigh... so, I do have to search for notes on the name of the pilot in question, plus eye-witness accounts? You insist on all the details to be published here?

First you have to remember that Iran who started the war on cities and targeting civilians through shelling city of Basrah by heavy North Korea artillery...

...which is another pile of nonsense usually spread by 'convinced Iraqis'.

The first to bombard civilians was Iraq, when it hit living quarters of Dezful AB (TFB.4) with Scuds, in late September 1980, killing dozens of civilians. As next, Iraqis obliterated Khorramshahr, Shalamcheh, Howeyzeh, Ardebil and many towns along the border, already in September 1980. Would you like to have a few scans of recce photos showing Iranian towns razed with the ground?

Mind: we're talking here about purely civilian places.

That was the pre-text for 'War of the Cities' (that is: its I Phase), which began with Iranians firing SS-1c Scud-B SSMs (which they've got from Libya) on Baghdad, in early 1985. This enraged Saddam who ordered retaliation - and this came in form of MiG-25RBs bombing Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Qom, Arak, Tabriz etc.

(BTW, North-Korean Koksun long-range cannons calibre 175mm appeared on the battlefields only in 1986.)

Iraqi air force didn't mean to hit or target civilians at all, it was wrong drop bombs caused civilian casualties...

More nonsense.

Given MiG-25RB's nav/attack system was designed for deployment of nukes, it couldn't really 'aim' for anything else but a 'city'. Indeed, if we take their attacks on Khark as an example, crews of No. 84 Squadron were already happy if they've hit that island (and they never hit anything of importance there)... So, the usual story about the aiming point for bombardments of Tehran in 1985 being the IRIAF HQ at Dowshan Tappeh AB is really bullshit: this was not hit even once. Iraqis knew they would never hit it; they knew they were primarily hitting southern disctricts of the city, where poor are living, but they bombed, nevertheless.

And if we go a step further, and - for example - discuss the part of the map posted by 'oldiaf' related to chemical attacks, matters look really bestial for the IrAF. Then, namely, Iraqis have to explain the condition and situation of over 100,000 citizens of cities like Abadan, Ahwaz, Khorramshar and Susangerd that are suffering from intake of Iraqi chemical weapons until today.

The extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraqis eventually proved the actual reason for Tehran accepting the UN-sponsored cease-fire: the IRGC could simply not find enough volunteers to launch any further of its 'final' offensives...

[tomcooper]

All squadron became effective combat units when the war began, even the Su-7 and hawker hunters carried out combat missions early in the war.

So what? I told you how the No. 17 Squadron came into being because you cited some No. 67 Squadron, - which never existed.

You mix with another pilot he has the same (family/clan title) name, as well with Nawfal Shaaban you mix with another Nawfal.

And even if I mix Albanians with Andorans: fact is, there was no MiG-21MF-equipped No. 67 Squadron in al-Kut. OK, you admitted that No. 67 was your tippo, but you're still wrong with your new designation.

Whatever: fact is there was no need to re-deploy MiG-21MFs from any other unit to that base, because this was the home of MiG-21bis-equipped

Summary: this story is nifty. Go back and re-check it.

So, on what date should he have claimed this F-14?

Earlier months of the war before 1981

...sigh...

No wonder you're convinced IrAF shot down 14+ Iranian F-14s: why should one care about such 'unimportant details' like dates? 'It happened during that war', you said so, so it must be 100% truth, Insh'allah...

That's right but Nawfal you refer to is not the same Nawfal Shaaban i mentioned...

Oh, really? So who is then 'that' Nawfal I'm talking about?

OK, if there is no losses on this date or that date..etc, therefore no need to waste our time here,because at the end Iran will deny every single losses to their F-14's (in this case we will enter hot discussion for no reason).

Give me a date that's true (in sense of: some Iraqi claim that really resulted in downing of an Iranian F-14), and I'll confirm it.

Complete data on Iranian F-14-losses is available (only one RIO is missing), and actually known to such researchers like me.

Not my fault if half of claims you've posted (and half the 'Medal of Courage' received by Iraqi pilots) are based on little else but hot air.

And: don't expect from me to give you any tips in this regards. I'll not let you twist your stories to suit your truth.

[milos984]

They did show the MIG-21 gunsight firing the F-14 to the Journalists some of them was Spanish (hopefully anyone of them if still alive till this day can show this picture).

Film from aircrafts guncamera is important part of a proces of verification. But not sufficient. There were many occasions in which gun camera films were presented by IDF/AF and depicting "arab MiG" falling in flames. And suprise, suprise many of this MiG credited to IDF pilots were just demaged. So shoting down even such light-weight like MiG-21 is not easy as presented in mainstream media, even more problematic is shot down of such heavies like F-4 or F-14.
---
So there was gun camera film presented. I say OK, but where is other evidence.

[oldiaf]

Regarding the issue of attacking civilian centers in DS ... I don't think its intentional but rather result from errors ... Only 229 shooter aircraft as I recall were capable of delivering smart weapons and even with these many factors played a role in limiting its effectiveness such as bad weather interfering with LGB ... For example the 80% hit accuracy claimed by the 42 F-117A Nighthawks were scaled back recently to 40-60% at best.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

....sigh... so, I do have to search for notes on the name of the pilot in question, plus eye-witness accounts? You insist on all the details to be published here?

Why not if you have irrefutable evidence (photos,videos) prove Iraqi public hang IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah show it to us, otherwise things such as eye-witness accounts can not be adopted and unreliable. You have good example Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ Kuwaiti lady, who alleged that she had witnessed the murder of infant children by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait, in verbal testimony to the U.S. Congress, in the run up to the 1991 Gulf War. Later became clear it's fake testimony..

...which is another pile of nonsense usually spread by 'convinced Iraqis'.
The first to bombard civilians was Iraq, when it hit living quarters of Dezful AB (TFB.4) with Scuds, in late September 1980, killing dozens of civilians. As next, Iraqis obliterated Khorramshahr, Shalamcheh, Howeyzeh, Ardebil and many towns along the border, already in September 1980. Would you like to have a few scans of recce photos showing Iranian towns razed with the ground?

Great and thank you for this proof (Iraqi forces "Army") start to fire back on Iran in September 1980 as you confirmed now, while Iran start to bombing Iraqi cities and towns and villages since 15 June 1980 this mean Iran who start first the war on cities (and we have official protest notes and telegrams sent by the Iraqi Ministry of Foreign to UN and Iranian embassy) expresses a complaint about Iranian attacks to Iraqi cities..etc
With all that irrefutable evidence, the Iranian F-5 pilot. Hassan Ali Reza Lashkari who was shot down over Diyala city in 7 of September 1980 by Maj. Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge MIG-21, even weeks before the war..
So at the end Iran and it's trumpets has only pile of nonsense as usual with no single evidence proof their empty allegations..
Pictures below shows the moment of delivering Iranian F-5 pilot. Hassan Ali Reza Lashkari to Iran and you can note his health and weight when he was in Iraq and later became skinny in Iran "this is just another evidence prove that Iraqi was treated them excellently..

Given MiG-25RB's nav/attack system was designed for deployment of nukes, it couldn't really 'aim' for anything else but a 'city'. Indeed, if we take their attacks on Khark as an example, crews of No. 84 Squadron were already happy if they've hit that island (and they never hit anything of importance there)... So, the usual story about the aiming point for bombardments of Tehran in 1985 being the IRIAF HQ at Dowshan Tappeh AB is really bullshit: this was not hit even once. Iraqis knew they would never hit it; they knew they were primarily hitting southern disctricts of the city, where poor are living, but they bombed, nevertheless.

We didn't had MIG-25's No. 84 Squadron (as i confirmed to you before) so no need to talk about the rest of the claims.

And if we go a step further, and - for example - discuss the part of the map posted by 'oldiaf' related to chemical attacks, matters look really bestial for the IrAF. Then, namely, Iraqis have to explain the condition and situation of over 100,000 citizens of cities like Abadan, Ahwaz, Khorramshar and Susangerd that are suffering from intake of Iraqi chemical weapons until today.
The extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraqis eventually proved the actual reason for Tehran accepting the UN-sponsored cease-fire: the IRGC could simply not find enough volunteers to launch any further of its 'final' offensives...

The map post by 'oldiaf' is not official and didn't belong to the Iraqi Air Force and we don't use such these maps or English language on it, plus the map format looks modern design by computer, so you can't adopted as official Iraqi AF document and establish matters such chemical attacks..etc
Iraqi Air force never ever used chemical weapons against own people or Iranian civilians, any official document prove that Iraqi Air force used chemical weapons against Iraqi people ( i will be very very grateful to you if you give me copy of it).
The attack was by Iranian AF and which they used sarin gas.but this story re-told by Media and used against Saddam when he invaded Kuwait to mobilize public opinion against him.
Retired army war college professor and CIA-analyst Stephen Pelletiere tolled all the truth about that chemical attack in this video.