Eurofighter Typhoon

[Scorpion82]

You don't understand what it's all about, but I don't care to explain because you don't want to hear it anyway.

Oh quite wrong, I understand exactly what it's about. It is about anti F-35 'critics' desperate to make a story out of nothing. Critics who don't know the facts and are therefore coming off looking pretty foolish when confronted with this statement by those who DO KNOW infinately more than them about the situation:

"the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme"

Give it up pal, your making a fool out of yourself banging on about nothing.

Sorry but you understand nothing. The UK might have what it needs now, that doesn't mean they will receive the source codes demanded later on and the US has already made it clear that they won't release all source codes. Wether they will release sufficient source codes remains yet to be seen. Sure the UK will be able to operate the aircraft without source codes, but it will be reliant on the US for upgrades and that's where the UK wants a certain souvereignity. If the US doesn't allow that now the british were fauled by the last US government as the transmission of relevant source codes was a must meet condition to commit for the PSFD phase. As simple as that.

[shep1978]

Sorry but you understand nothing. The UK might have what it needs now, that doesn't mean they will receive the source codes demanded later on and the US has already made it clear that they won't release all source codes. Wether they will release sufficient source codes remains yet to be seen. Sure the UK will be able to operate the aircraft without source codes, but it will be reliant on the US for upgrades and that's where the UK wants a certain souvereignity. If the US doesn't allow that now the british were fauled by the last US government as the transmission of relevant source codes was a must meet condition to commit for the PSFD phase. As simple as that.

I understand it totally unlike you; we the UK have everything we need at this stage of the program. Now, you might have a point if we didn't ever get that source code but as it is at this stage of the program we have everything we need. You are obviously hoping and wishing for source code to be an issue but it is not at the moment as has been stated over and over and over and over and over again by our people.
To argue otherwise makes you look immensly stupid and extremely troll-like to all that can comprehend what they read.

Just to note we in the UK as i've already mentioned do not have source code to our Apache's yet that is a non issue. You really need to stop being so incedibly biased. C-130J, C-17 , AIM-120 and Trident all fall in the same catagory as Apache too but only outrage about the F-35 source code I notice...

Give it up.

[Scorpion82]

I understand it totally unlike you; we the UK have everything we need at this stage of the program. Now, you might have a point if we didn't ever get that source code but as it is at this stage of the program we have everything we need. You are obviously hoping and wishing for source code to be an issue but it is not at the moment as has been stated over and over and over and over and over again by our people.
To argue otherwise makes you look immensly stupid and extremely troll-like to all that can comprehend what they read.

Just to note we in the UK as i've already mentioned do not have source code to our Apache's yet that is a non issue. You really need to stop being so incedibly biased. C-130J, C-17 , AIM-120 and Trident all fall in the same catagory as Apache too but only outrage about the F-35 source code I notice...

Give it up.

I give up nothing, just because you ignorant chap are incapble to get the point I won't shut up to your pleasure.
If you would actually bother to comprehend what other people say you might get behint it, but you don't and instead continue with your meaningless brabbling.

This has nothing to do with bias, anti critics or hoping for anything. And the situation isn't compareable to the purchase of the C-130J, C-17, AIM-120 or whatever US equipment the UK procured before, because all of this equipment is directly purchased off the shelve. In the case of the JSF programme the UK is a partner, not someone, but the oldest, largest and sole tier 1 partner. They are involved in the development and manufacturing processes and spent quite some money for their involvment. It's just understandable that they aren't going to accept as being treated like a foreign purchaser who hasn't contributed anything to the programme so your comparison is moot to say the least. Their commitment to the PSFD phase was made on base of the US government's promise to release the source codes required to maintain and upgrade the UK's F-35 fleet independently from the US. It's fine that they have what they need now, but that doesn't answer the question wether they'll get what they were promised to get before and all those reports doesn't sound to encouraging. If it turns out that the UK will finally get what they are asked for the better, if not the US would have fooled them.

[shep1978]

"JSF is progressing well and the UK currently has the JSF data needed at this stage of the programme, and is confident that in future we will continue to receive the data needed to ensure that our requirements for Operational Sovereignty will be met.

This remains the basis of the agreements reached with the US in 2006. " -
Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued Dec. 1, 2009

Stop being a clown.

[fasteagle]

Just been reading about Tiffie vs F-35 in the F-35 section of the forum - seems to be a parrallel discussion going on

[shep1978]

Good point fasteagle, lets get back to the Typhoon topic.

Latest news is Typhoon got a sound thrashing over in the Al Dahfra excersises. Truck loads of of excuses are being rolled out for the poor performance against the Rafale with promisises by highly questionable pro-Typhoon journalists (undoubtable on the BAE payroll in my opinion) that "the truth will be revealed" but at the moment it does seem Typhoon is nothing like as impressive as it was made out to be and Rafale a far better performer than made out to be.

A weak excuse of an email has been sent by the Eurofighter GmbH trying to deny/excuse away the result but it'd be a complete double standard to believe them, afterall, anything from LM, Boeing or the USAF is an outright lie so the same applies here

All in all it's a very interesting and rather amusing story worth watching as it unfolds...

[Scorpion82]

Good point fasteagle, lets get back to the Typhoon topic.

Latest news is Typhoon got a sound thrashing over in the Al Dahfra excersises. Truck loads of of excuses are being rolled out for the poor performance against the Rafale with promisises by highly questionable pro-Typhoon journalists (undoubtable on the BAE payroll in my opinion) that "the truth will be revealed" but at the moment it does seem Typhoon is nothing like as impressive as it was made out to be and Rafale a far better performer than made out to be.

A weak excuse of an email has been sent by the Eurofighter GmbH trying to deny/excuse away the result but it'd be a complete double standard to believe them, afterall, anything from LM, Boeing or the USAF is an outright lie so the same applies here

All in all it's a very interesting and rather amusing story worth watching as it unfolds...

So you admit you are admitting and spreading outright lies?
And what exactly has Rafale vs Typhoon do to with the discussion about Typhoon and F-35?

[shep1978]

So you admit you are admitting and spreading outright lies?
And what exactly has Rafale vs Typhoon do to with the discussion about Typhoon and F-35?

LOL
Do you follow me round the forums trying to pick holes in my posts, sure feels that way but no, I have made no admission of telling tall tales, merely repeating what i've read elsewhere.
Oh BTW, you must have slipped on your nit picking game because this is not the Typhoon vs F-35 thread, thats up in the F-35 forum section...

[Scorpion82]

LOL
Do you follow me round the forums trying to pick holes in my posts, sure feels that way but no, I have made no admission of telling tall tales, merely repeating what i've read elsewhere.
Oh BTW, you must have slipped on your nit picking game because this is not the Typhoon vs F-35 thread, thats up in the F-35 forum section...

I could say the same about you :-p. You are right this isn't the Eurofighter vs F-35 topic my bad, but funny enough it ended up to be something like that and you contributed quite a lot to that.

[shep1978]

You are right this isn't the Eurofighter vs F-35 topic my bad, but funny enough it ended up to be something like that and you contributed quite a lot to that.

Ok lets see, start with post #1 in which topic starter Peter G asks the question "Well the Typhoon is Europe's answer. How do you think it compares with it's rivals?"
I than replied on post #4 explaining that whilst typhoon compares well to other 4th gen fighters I thought it was an unwise buy for the UK and not fit for high threat conflicts.
Lo and behold post #5 you are there again within an hour or so rebutting my posts in an unhappy manner full of sarcasm as i'd seemingly insulted your favourite fighter by pointing out its shortcomings. We had a few back and forth posts and that was that.
Then we had the F-35 source code non-story that you got upset over after being shown official statements showing that it was nonsense.

Anyway, all in all I don't think it was unfair to compare the F-35 to the Typhoon especially considering the thread was started by someone wanting to know how it compares with it's rivals. So for you to say I contributed quite a lot to that, as in implying that I caused a massive derail of the thread is really rather silly as you have contributed just as much, read back through and see for yourself, post #1 would be a good starting point....

[Scorpion82]

I than replied on post #4 explaining that whilst typhoon compares well to other 4th gen fighters I thought it was an unwise buy for the UK and not fit for high threat conflicts.

Lo and behold post #5 you are there again within an hour or so rebutting my posts in an unhappy manner full of sarcasm as i'd seemingly insulted your favourite fighter by pointing out its shortcomings. We had a few back and forth posts and that was that.

That is the simplified version leaving out the relevant details. I was explaining to you the status of potential enemies and that the Typhoon is actually not an entirely useless asset as you appear to think it is.

Then we had the F-35 source code non-story that you got upset over after being shown official statements showing that it was nonsense.

I didn't got upset and explicitely said:
"Wether they will release sufficient source codes remains yet to be seen...If the US doesn't allow


And being confident as claimed in the press release is fine, but is no guarantee that it will happen in the end. I haven't said it won't happen, but explained the problems if it doesn't happen and given the complaints over the years one wonders from where they come and wether it must be all lies or has a certain substance.

Anyway, all in all I don't think it was unfair to compare the F-35 to the Typhoon especially considering the thread was started by someone wanting to know how it compares with it's rivals. So for you to say I contributed quite a lot to that, as in implying that I caused a massive derail of the thread is really rather silly as you have contributed just as much, read back through and see for yourself, post #1 would be a good starting point....

It was just a hint at that "this is not the Eurofighter vs F-35 thread", which is indeed true, though matters concerning both aircraft including comparisons in some fields were included. So in the end it turned out to be a bit a F-35/Eurofighter topic being discussed. I didn't said I haven't contributed to that.

[spazsinbad]

Five page PDF article about Spanish Typhoons & upgrades from AirForces Monthly Magazine Oct 2019 No.379

Spanish ‘spaceships’: Honing the Typhoon [Ejército del Aire Eurofighters]
Oct 2019 Salvador Mafé Huertas

"The Typhoon is proving a formidable combat aircraft for the Spanish Air Force and has completely replaced the Mirage F1. The air force is mastering its swing-role capabilities, embarking on an ambitious upgrade programme and even eyeing further orders, as Salvador Mafé Huertas reveals...."

Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine Oct 2019 No.379

[vilters]

Servicable is one thing.
Flyable is another thing.
Combat ready is yet something else.

Facts and figures about "Combat ready" are the only ones that count.

Germany needed 128 of them to get 4 (four) combat ready.

Documented facts and figures please.
All the rest are just blanco words in a forum.

[mixelflick]

From the outside looking in, Typhoon seems to have succeeded in its design objective - be capable of dispatching members of the Flanker family. Initially...

But those pesky Russians/Chinese continue to incrementally upgrade them with thrust vectoring, more powerful engines, longer ranged weapons and improved radars. Typhoon was slow to integrate an AESA and Meteor, although that's apparently (finally) happening. As it stands today, I'd say the two are much closer to a draw in capability vs. one holding distinct advantages vs. the other.

I'd also agree Typhoon doesn't hold significant advantages vs. say, upgraded F-15's. The F-15SA/QA rolling off production lines now is at least as good in the air to air realm, and vastly superior in the strike fighter role. A look at the Saudi inventory is quite telling..

F-15S/SA 167 (25 more on order)
F-15C 61
Typhoon 72

Now let's look at Quatar..

F-15QA 72
Typhoon 24

Quatar is an even more telling case, given they also operate the Rafale. On original order for 24 was placed, and a second order was placed for 12 more. The option for 36 more is still pending..

So of the air arms in the middle east with the $, we see significant interest/fielding of the F-15, some interest in the Typhoon and after they got their hands on both, Quatar opting for more Rafale's - not more Typhoons.

BOTTOM LINE

Typhoon is a very capable 4+ gen fighter, which should be able to hold its own vs. Russian/Chinese models. Mix in some S-400 batteries though and a squadron or two of SU-57's, and it's going to be a long day for Typhoon and its pilots..

[marsavian]

Typhoon has not been designed well for the strike role with its fuel tank wing store being the only heavy wing store capable of carrying cruise missiles leading to an either choice between the two. Also only light supersonic fuel tanks have been developed so far so it really is only a light strike fighter, Rafale embarrasses it with all of its air to ground options and fully utilizes the capacity of the twin engined airframe of its class unlike Typhoon. Typhoon really still after all this time primarily only shines as a fast interceptor.