164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

nikolaos

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 53
  • Joined: 06 Mar 2015, 07:01

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 13:27

A question to tomcooper, are all these losses posted by oldiaf in the two previous posts included in the Iraqi document Analytical study...?
Offline
User avatar

tomcooper

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 234
  • Joined: 17 Jul 2014, 10:51
  • Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 15:40

nikolaos wrote:A question to tomcooper, are all these losses posted by oldiaf in the two previous posts included in the Iraqi document Analytical study...?

Except in one case, that 'Analytical study' is not citing specific losses, i.e. it's no 'blow-by-blow', but a 'summary account' (so and so many MiG-21s, lost for this and that reason, under this and such circumstances etc.).

And, again: it does not mention any kind of 'unknowns'.

oldiaf wrote:Some examples of Iraqi Aircrafts lost during the war with Iran for unknown reasons:
Based on what document? What's the title of that document, when was that document issued, and by what authority?

Or is it so that reasons for these losses are 'unknown' to the author of whoever is writing down such losses?

(I appreciate the work of the person in question - and then a lot - and I appreciate your effort to translate it; but I need clarity if this is _officially confirmed data_ or, 'oral-type recollections'?)

Furthermore:
1- MiG-21UB
There is no 'MiG-21UB', and there was never any. IrAF has got MiG-21UMs and FT-7s.

And nobody sane would've sent any MiG-21UMs for a training mission over the Persian Gulf.

2- MiG-21 Squadron 39
No. 39 was a MiG-23MS squadron, from its establishment in 1976, until it was re-equipped with MiG-23MFs, in 1983.

4- MiG-21 Squadron 39 1980 Lt. Jasim Daikh
Lost while in recon mission
Only MiG-21Rs were used for recce: others were not equiped for such purposes.

And all IrAF MiG-21Rs were flown by No. 70 Squadron only.

2-Super Etendard 1983 or 1984 squadron 76 Captain Kamel Husain Kadhum Alansari
Hit the water in combat mission while attack on a ship with Exocet missile
This means that it's the author who does not know about the reason, i.e. this is no 'official conclusion'. Official IrAF conclusion was that this SuE was shot down by 'Saudi F-15' (for which there was no evidence either, but that's another story).

10- Tu-22 Squadron 18 1984 Lt.Col. Ibraheem Alfargahi ( squadron commander ) and Navigator Lt. Ali Jasim
This happened already in September 1980, not in 1984: Tu-22s were never deployed again to attack Tehran (or Esfahan and other places) after two were lost (to F-14s, and this is something the IrAF confirmed) in October 1980.

11- Tu-16 Squadron 10 Sep. 22 1980 Crew : Colonel Adel Othman ( Squadron leader ) - Major Azhar Abdulkareem - Navigator Captain Mohanad Abdulrazaq - Navigator Lt. Abas Gitran - Sgt. Khalid and Sgt. Anwar Rzoqy..
Hit mountains near the Iranian city of Somar in the first day of the war
'Hit mountains' is not the same like 'unknown reason'.

That said, 'crashes during combat sortie' are also not cited in that study.

BTW, actually, this Tu-16 was intercepted by F-4Es while attempting to attack TFB.3, during the opening Iraqi strike on IRIAF air bases. Col Othman was the highest-ranking IrAF officer KIA during the entire war.

Ah yes: and what's with names of the other two or three crewmembers of that Tu-16? It's at least 10 years since I've heard of this loss for the first time: these officers and other ranks have given their lifes for the 'defence' of Iraq - and it's still so that nobody can recall them?

Hm...

oldiaf wrote:Examples of fratricide kills...

Not one case of fratricide fire was mentioned in that 'Analytical Study', and not a single crash (for whatever reason or wherever it occurred). Means: add these to the 168 cited in that study - and we're a (small) step closer to actual IrAF losses of that war.
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
Offline

oldiaf

Banned

  • Posts: 1434
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 23:28

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 16:03

I also suprised regarding MiG-21 in squadron 39 since I know its a MiG-23 squadron shifted after the war to MiG-29
Offline
User avatar

tomcooper

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 234
  • Joined: 17 Jul 2014, 10:51
  • Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 16:15

oldiaf wrote:I also suprised regarding MiG-21 in squadron 39 since I know its a MiG-23 squadron shifted after the war to MiG-29

For me, No. 39 Squadron is one of better-known IrAF units (I've got their unit insignia too). The few things I do not know about that unit, but would like to find out would be serial numbers of its MiG-23MS' and MFs that wore kill markings. Also, I would like to learn more about the backgrounds of why one pilot defected to Iran flying a MiG-23 in.... I think it was in 1984?

Don't know his name, but he flew that MiG straight to TFB.3...

(BTW, that defection is not cited in that Analytical Study, so this is another case you can add to that figure of 168.)

Otherwise, 'peace-time attrition' of MiG-23MS' was heavy in all countries that operated this variant, early on. Up to 12 out of the first 16 delivered to Iraq should've been written off in different accidents already before the war. It was similar in Libya and Syria too.

Problems were multiple, but primarily related to poor manufacturing quality, lack of useful manuals and technical documentation (Libyans even hired US pilots to test-fly their MiG-23MS' and write manuals for them), and then too high expectations (caused by Soviets praising MiG-23 as 'better' than anything US-made, including F-14s and F-15s).

MiG-23UBs (two-seat conversion trainers) were nothing better. Particularly accidents like that in Libya in 2010 were frequent (aircraft falling out of skies while pilot attempted to make a roll and inverting the MiG).

So, no surprise if another few examples were lost in accidents already after the start of the war with Iran.
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
Offline
User avatar

tomcooper

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 234
  • Joined: 17 Jul 2014, 10:51
  • Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 16:30

Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:

- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?

This was an old unit, established back in 1964, and flying Hunter F.Mk.59s. It participated in wars with Israel in June 1967, then with Kurds and again with Israel, in October 1973.

In mid-1970s, it was re-equipped with MiG-23BNs. It went into the war with Iran still equipped with that type. Originally, No. 29 Squadron had a beautiful patch with a Hawk's head, number 29 and a silhouette of a Hunter (later MiG-23BN) against the background of 'land and sea' as its crest. Later 'MiG-23BN only' (on a green pentagram, outlinned in red).

So far, everything OK. But, there's no trace - nobody can recall this squadron - after about 1983 or so. It's not listed on any ORBATS for 1991 either: the only MiG-23BN unit still active as of that time seems to have been No. 49 Squadron.

So, any clue waht happened to No. 29?
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
Offline

oldiaf

Banned

  • Posts: 1434
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 23:28

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 16:51

Some accidents involving MiG-23 or MiG-21 IrAF
1- 1992 Captain Ali Aied
MiG-23UB Squadron 93
Bakr AB Balad

2- 1979 Major Basim Kadhum
MiG-23MF or MS Squadron 29
Ali AB

3- 1979 Captain Saad Khaleel Abdullah - Lt. Osama Mohammed
MiG-21U Squadron 70
Waleed AB

4-1990 Lt. Najeeb Alkubaisi
MiG-23 Squadron 29
Ali AB

5- 1971 Captain Sobhi Alkubaisi
MiG-21 squadron 11
Waleed AB

6- 1982 Captain Mehsen Alsabti - Lt. Moafaq Mohammed Yaseen
MiG-23UB Squadron 49
Tammuz AB

7- 1974 Captain Adel Khalaf Aldulaimy - Lt.Riadh
MiG-21U
Squadron 14
Crashed in Habaniya Lake near Tammuz AB during Airshow

8- 1967 Hatam Nema Alubaidy
MiG-21 Squadron 11
Habaniya AB
Last edited by oldiaf on 20 Sep 2015, 18:04, edited 2 times in total.
Offline

oldiaf

Banned

  • Posts: 1434
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 23:28

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 16:52

tomcooper wrote:Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:

- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?

This was an old unit, established back in 1964, and flying Hunter F.Mk.59s. It participated in wars with Israel in June 1967, then with Kurds and again with Israel, in October 1973.

In mid-1970s, it was re-equipped with MiG-23BNs. It went into the war with Iran still equipped with that type. Originally, No. 29 Squadron had a beautiful patch with a Hawk's head, number 29 and a silhouette of a Hunter (later MiG-23BN) against the background of 'land and sea' as its crest. Later 'MiG-23BN only' (on a green pentagram, outlinned in red).

So far, everything OK. But, there's no trace - nobody can recall this squadron - after about 1983 or so. It's not listed on any ORBATS for 1991 either: the only MiG-23BN unit still active as of that time seems to have been No. 49 Squadron.

So, any clue waht happened to No. 29?

1990 Lt. Najeeb Alkubaisi
MiG-23 Squadron 29
Ali AB
Last edited by oldiaf on 20 Sep 2015, 18:04, edited 3 times in total.
Offline

oldiaf

Banned

  • Posts: 1434
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 23:28

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 16:56

Another example of MiG-21 from Squadron 39 ??!
Captain Kadhum Tariq Hamodi ... Hit by AAA 1980 Faw Peninsula
Offline
User avatar

tomcooper

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 234
  • Joined: 17 Jul 2014, 10:51
  • Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland

Unread post20 Sep 2015, 17:51

oldiaf wrote:1990 Lt. Najeed Alkubaisi
MiG-23 Squadron 29
Ali AB
Very nice.

Is it sure it was No. 29 and not No. 49 Squadron (the other MiG-23BN unit), or perhaps No. 59 Squadron (OCU for MiG-23s)?

And, to understand it better: in what relation was this information, i.e. wwhat was al-Kubaisy doing with MiG-23BNs as of 1990...?

Re. Hamoudy: sry, either he flew MiG-23s with No. 39 Squadron, or MiG-21s with some other unit.
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
Offline

milos984

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 10:39

Unread post21 Sep 2015, 07:41

tomcooper wrote:Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:
- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?
Right, dissapearence of 29th Sqn. is interesting. Its just my guess but "something unpleasant"* happens to planes/flyers of this unit. Maybe similar like to 109th Sqn. which was saved by re-equipping to Su-25 aircrafts.

*...like collisions with water surface???
Offline
User avatar

tomcooper

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 234
  • Joined: 17 Jul 2014, 10:51
  • Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland

Unread post21 Sep 2015, 08:05

No. 109 Squadron is a different story. In its case there's no doubt it has 'spent' (read: lost) all but two of its Su-22s during the war with Iran.

But, there are no reports about No. 29 suffering such losses (if either of two MiG-23BN-equipped units did, then it was rather No. 49; even their CO was shot down and captured by Iranians, early during the war).
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
Offline

oldiaf

Banned

  • Posts: 1434
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 23:28

Unread post22 Sep 2015, 01:23

milos984 wrote:
tomcooper wrote:Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:
- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?
Right, dissapearence of 29th Sqn. is interesting. Its just my guess but "something unpleasant"* happens to planes/flyers of this unit. Maybe similar like to 109th Sqn. which was saved by re-equipping to Su-25 aircrafts.

*...like collisions with water surface???

Squadron 109 is the current squadron of Iraqi AF 12 Su-25
Previous

Return to Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests