JASDF RF-4E/EJs Retire

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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krieger22

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Unread post09 Mar 2020, 14:41

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/03/09 ... -phantoms/

Final sortie flown this morning. While it had been expected for a while, you can't help but be sad to see them go

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mixelflick

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Unread post09 Mar 2020, 17:53

Sad day, but we all knew it was coming.

She served with distincton.... everywhere. It was the F-35 before the F-35, filling so many roles and serving in all 3 major branches of our armed forces. I always thought the German F-4F's were the baddest, given the radar/AMRAAM carriage. When I heard about it giving the newly arrived Eagle a nasty surprise, I was shocked.

McDonnell Douglas really did a great job with the double ugly. And my all time favorite description of such...

"The Phantom II was a triumph of thrust over aerodynamics...".

Classic :mrgreen:
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Tiger05

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 00:26

Sad to see them go... :( I always liked the JASDF RF-4E & EJs and their unique camo schemes. They will be missed.

I believe Iran is now the last country still flying Recce Phantoms.
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weasel1962

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 01:39

JASDF review.

JASDF currently operates 200 F-15s, 40+ F-4 (inc 10 RF-4), 90 F-2s, 12 F-35As, 64 P3Cs, 19 P-1s. 98 F-15s will be upgraded. 105 F-35As and 42 F-35Bs is the F-35 acquisition program on record. The 94 F-2s were produced locally between year 2000 to 2011 and thus would age 8-19 years.

This is organized into 12 fighter squadrons (not incl F-35) with an additional STOVL squadron being formed. This excludes the sole RF-4 sqn (501 Hikkotai) which is retired and other units e.g. OTE (Hiko Kaihatsu Jikken Dan), training schools (1 Jyutsuka Gakko), an F-15 aggressor sqn (Hiko Kyodogun), F-2B training sqn (21 Hikotai) and F-15 training sqn (23 Hikotai).

The 12 fighter sqns comprises 7 F-15J (201, 203, 204, 303, 304, 305, 306 Hikkotai), 1 F-4EJ (301), 1 F-35A (302) and 3 F-2 (3, 6, 8). With the F-15 upgrade and F-35 buys when delivered, would match the intended 13 sqn fighter force structure with 4 F-15J, 4 F-35A, 2 F-35B and 3 F-2 squadrons. The force structure may also instead be 5 F-35As and a single F-35B sqn with a training sqn each.

The F-2 replacement program was announced after 2007 with the US refusal to sell the F-22 (dubbed then by western media as the F-3) and was incorporated into the 2010 midterm development program and subsequent programs ever since reflecting an intent to partner the US for this development since at least year 2013. The “F-3” program can thus be extrapolated today to be ~3-7 sqns worth of replacements (100-200 units). Assuming a 25-30 year airframe life, the production should commence between 2025 to 2030 at the F-2 production rates of under a dozen a year to slightly over a dozen if replacing the F-15s also.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 05:01

Not to split hairs but the future F-2 replacement is to be determined and won't be called the F-3 regardless..... :?
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weasel1962

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 09:36

These emojis...

(3, 6, 8) = (3, 6, 8 ).
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 09:53

The F-3 is still dead.... :wink:
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mixelflick

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 14:04

F-3 to be produced starting in 2025?

Have they even flown a prototype yet? I just don't see this happening, and further don't see anything resulting that'll give them more capability than simply buying more F-35's. 147 F-35's isn't bad, but it won't be enough to tangle with China either. N. Korea sure, but not China.

The F-15's are really getting long in the tooth. If they're so intent on keeping them in the mix, then I'd say opt for the F-15X vs. upgrading the ones they have. How new can they be? Must have a lotta airframe hours! What Japan really needs is the AIM-260 and I'd wholeheartedly support exporting that to them. If Israel gets them (and you know they will), Japan and Australia should as well.

Going to be the only way to keep the F-15/F-18SH viable against up-rated Chinese Flankers and the PL-15/20
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 01:42

mixelflick wrote:F-3 to be produced starting in 2025?

Have they even flown a prototype yet? I just don't see this happening, and further don't see anything resulting that'll give them more capability than simply buying more F-35's. 147 F-35's isn't bad, but it won't be enough to tangle with China either. N. Korea sure, but not China.

The F-15's are really getting long in the tooth. If they're so intent on keeping them in the mix, then I'd say opt for the F-15X vs. upgrading the ones they have. How new can they be? Must have a lotta airframe hours! What Japan really needs is the AIM-260 and I'd wholeheartedly support exporting that to them. If Israel gets them (and you know they will), Japan and Australia should as well.

Going to be the only way to keep the F-15/F-18SH viable against up-rated Chinese Flankers and the PL-15/20




They have a plan in place and it doesn't include the now canceled F-3.... :?


Honestly, it's rather simple....short-term they will retire half of the F-15 fleet. While, upgrading the other half and buying more F-35's. Long-term they will join with a partner or partners. To jointly develop a future 6th Generation Fighter. Which, will replace the F-2's.....


Nothing hard or complex about it....
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weasel1962

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 01:52

The thing about the Japanese is their production in small batches. The first J was delivered in 1980 but the last was in 1998 (DJ being 1999) so there's some airframe life left in the latter batches. This would explain why only 98 are being upgraded with the AESA, DEWs and ADCP II. $4.5b for the upgrade would only afford less than 45 of the X.

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/j ... ernization

It has to be a phased approach to replacement otherwise too many units are out of commission due to conversion. 147 F-35s are already 40+% of the combat aircraft force so that needs time to induct. I think the decision is already taken to buy more F-35s if required, no more F-15 buys. The only question is whether they will replace the 98 upgraded F-15Js with more F-35s or the F-3.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 03:02

Odds favor more F-35's to replace the remaining F-15J's. As the new 6th Generation Fighter (not F-3) won't be ready before 2040 at the earliest.....
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weasel1962

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 03:17

Didn't someone once say that the USAF won't buy the F-15 and to watch that space? I don't know about the odds but what I do note is the track records of some people's predictions...J-31...Mig-41...we'll see.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 04:25

weasel1962 wrote:Didn't someone once say that the USAF won't buy the F-15 and to watch that space? I don't know about the odds but what I do note is the track records of some people's predictions...J-31...Mig-41...we'll see.




I did indeed say the USAF wouldn't buy more F-15's. Why??? Because they said over and over they wouldn't.....making the case better to pursue 5th Generation Fighters like the F-35.


QUOTE:

Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says
By: Valerie Insinna    September 12, 2018


In an exclusive Sept. 5 interview, Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said she believes the service needs to expend its precious financial resources on stealthy, fifth-generation platforms — specifically the F-35 — and thus buying even an advanced fourth generation fighter like the so-called F-15X is not in the cards.

"We are currently 80 percent fourth-gen aircraft and 20 percent fifth generation aircraft,” she said. "In any of the fights that we have been asked to plan for, more fifth gen aircraft make a huge difference, and we think that getting to 50-50 means not buying new fourth gen aircraft, it means continuing to increase the fifth generation.”


What about a new fourth generation plane that would combine the F-35 and F-22?


Wilson shut down that idea as well, saying that proposal "is not something we’re currently considering.”

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/



QUOTE:

The US Air Force doesn’t want F-15X. But it needs more fighter jets.
By: Valerie Insinna    February 28, 2019

ORLANDO, Fla. — The U.S. Air Force wants more fighters. But it didn’t necessarily want the F-15X, and it didn’t intend to buy any in the upcoming fiscal 2020 budget, its top two leaders confirmed Thursday.


“Our budget proposal that we initially submitted did not include additional fourth-generation aircraft,” Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson told reporters during a Feb. 28 roundtable at the Air Force Association’s Air Warfare Symposium.


Wilson’s comments confirm reporting by Defense News and other outlets who have reported that the decision to buy new F-15X aircraft was essentially forced upon the Air Force. According to sources, the Pentagon’s Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation Office was a key backer of the F-15X and was able to garner the support of the Office of the Secretary of Defense.


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... hter-jets/


Yet, politics changed that as Boeing lost it's shirt over the B737 Max. So, Congress thru them a bone...(i.e. Corporate Welfare)

So, yes the USAF is going to by more F-15's. Yet, not because that is what they want.......
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weasel1962

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 04:41

Like I said, track record...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 10:42

I'll debate my "track record" compared to yours any day of the week and twice on Sunday! :wink:

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