F-5A Freedom Fighter vs F-100 Super Sabre

[alfakilo]

Impressive many thanks AK - were you in the F-4 or F-104 against the MiGs?

In both Gail Pecks and Steve Davies books on the Red Eagles the pilots seems to really love flying the MiG-21F13 - even over the F-7Bs they got later due to its handling.

Were you familiar with the term Buck Fever? - pilot know exactly what to do but tries to turn with the MiG regardless - I trust you were better than that anyway

While I flew both the 104 and F-4, I was in an A-10 on that day. Red Flag, 1985.

One thing I learned was that turning to excess wasn't a good idea. I think someone said it well in this thread when he noted that real world engagements were seldom 1v1's.

"Buck Fever" is a good discussion point. Many such examples, both pro and con. I think it all boils down to training. Chennault seems to have trained that out of his pilots, whereas the Brits in the early part of the war in Pacific failed to appreciate the maneuverability of the Japanese fighters or the skill of the Japanese pilots at what we refer to as "turning and burning". For Brit Spitfire pilots whose training was based on European conditions, too often turning was followed by burning.

Early on, we had similar issues until tacticians such as Thach managed to show folks the light.

But these lessons take a long time to find acceptance. I went thru F-4 RTU in the summer of 1972 when the air war over the North was in full swing. We had a number of years of experience against NV fighters but what I was taught in RTU was Fighting Wing and Finger Four. Fluid Two/Four was still in the future.

[basher54321]

Sorry had totally forgotten you flew A-10s - I take it this was part of the large Red Flag exercise and the MiGs were part of the aggressors. But you still gunned one down in your story yes


That's interesting - I really haven't looked into how Spits were used in the Pacific - I would guess being the energy fighter and having heavier firepower that using them in a similar fashion to how Chennault used P-40s was the way to go - ideally with minimal turning.

Thatch weave seems to be a great example of using tactics to offset the Zeros energy and angles advantages with mutual support and heavier firepower.

I do wonder if Buck Fever is an inherent human limitation - e.g. if I took a few weeks out of martial arts then went to fight I would make real basic mistakes - it would take while to get back to speed - trouble is you don't get chance to get to speed if you try to out turn a MiG-17 in an F-111 I guess.

The Red Eagles books also mention that old formations were still being used at that time - you sort of gasp in despair!

[alfakilo]

Sorry had totally forgotten you flew A-10s - I take it this was part of the large Red Flag exercise and the MiGs were part of the aggressors. But you still gunned one down in your story yes

In those days, it wasn't unusual for some of the Red Flag participants to be scheduled with Red Eagle sorties...these were not part of the Red Flag scenario as I remember. I will always remember mine as one of the high points of my time in fighters. Sorry, but I don't remember getting any MiGs in my gunsight that day!!

[outlaw162]

What's needed here is someone who actually flew the old girl against the F-5A.

[basher54321]

What's needed here is someone who actually flew the old girl against the F-5A.

I have an idea which one I would rather be in - what did you think of the F-100 (D?). Are you going to tell us about your moment of glory?

[outlaw162]

I have an idea which one I would rather be in

Same idea here, but I had 2000 hours in the F-100 and the pay was good. And they expected you to lose so those occasional times you won you were a hero. We had guys with anywhere from 2000-5000 hours in the machine which could make up for some performance deficiencies.

The ANG politicked aggressively to get F-5s to replace the tired old Huns, but at the time the ANG charter was to fly the 'junk', though with ANG MX it was immaculately maintained junk.

The picture is a 'D' with nothing hanging on the wings and 4 internal M-39s. The F-5A's performance advantage was not particularly overly decisive against a clean D. And with 1/2 flaps out it was probably just as good a slow fighter as an F-5A. And in a descending rolling scissors, use of full rudder and a smidgen of opposite aileron while pumping the stick to cycle the airload slats in and out could move the nose at embarrassing times for the opponent. The D was actually a better slow fighter than the no-flap C, it flew final 20 knots slower than the C. The F-100 was a decent MiG-19 simulator and an adequate MiG-17 simulator against the F-4.

Contrary to some comments about corner velocity, the F-100 7.33 corner was 50 knots lower than the hardwing F-4 at 390 to 440. I've got 2000 hours in the F-4 also and would never consider getting in and turning with a Hun. The Hun had a second instantaneous turn rate boost when the airload slats came out at between (IIRC) 290-220ish depending on g-load.

But the two best things about the F-100 were that it had every bad handling characteristic you could possibly have and took a reasonable amount of finesse to fly. And it was a chick magnet at those little bars just outside the podunk civilian airports where most of the ANG Huns were operated from.

(I had my first real 'moment of glory' when I got in the F-16A.)

[basher54321]

Nice - thanks outlaw especially on the low speed handling - I did wonder about that because on paper it looks to have similar wing loading to the MiG-19 but just seemed to lack in the T/W department (like the F-5A I guess).

Have read a comment the engine could compressor stall in AB at higher AoA. Was that relevant to the type you flew or had that been improved upon by then?

[johnwill]

outlaw, glad to see you posting again. How many years has it been? Haven't had any good yuks here since you stopped.

[outlaw162]

Hi johnwill,

Still here, been reading the good stuff, but haven't had anything to add. I'm out of the flying business entirely now which is why back in the day I never turned down a flight, even (gasp) a night flight.

Hope you're doing well.

[outlaw162]

Have read a comment the engine could compressor stall in AB at higher AoA. Was that relevant to the type you flew or had that been improved upon by then?

basher, very true

I flew the C & D (& F of course) at first with the old -21 AB and then with the -23 AB. There were two problems, high AOA airflow problems, more likely when AB was selected at high AOA anytime, less prevalent if already stabilized in AB unless really slow. The old original Rube Goldberg -21 eyelid/iris nozzle type afterburner assembly with a large number of rollers and petals would expand when it was hot and the nozzle would hang up if the AB was cycled in and out and in again rapidly. The hotstreak AB light was not sequenced or prevented with the nozzle closed. The AB light would generally blow the nozzle open however, with accompanying audio and visual effects. Although I think the flame coming out the intake could be temporarily distracting to an opponent in a scissors and maybe take him off his game. But tough on engines.

With the -21, It was always recommended to unload if possible when you went outboard and ease back to min burner until it lit. This problem actually went away when some clever Arizona ANG MX guy suggested retro-fitting the F-102 -23 AB with IIRC only 6 petals to the Hun. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) the F-100 was retired shortly after....

As far as an air-to-ground capability comment, the runway performance on a 90 degree day with 2X335 drops and 4 MK-82s was truly eye-watering.....

.....not in a good way.

[johnwill]

Hi johnwill,

Still here, been reading the good stuff, but haven't had anything to add. I'm out of the flying business entirely now which is why back in the day I never turned down a flight, even (gasp) a night flight.

Hope you're doing well.

I've been told that black air is heavier than blue air. Is that true? I'm doing fine, enjoy every day. Hope you do too.

[basher54321]

I flew the C & D (& F of course) at first with the old -21 AB and then with the -23 AB. There were two problems, high AOA airflow problems, more likely when AB was selected at high AOA anytime, less prevalent if already stabilized in AB unless really slow. The old original Rube Goldberg -21 eyelid/iris nozzle type afterburner assembly with a large number of rollers and petals would expand when it was hot and the nozzle would hang up if the AB was cycled in and out and in again rapidly. The hotstreak AB light was not sequenced or prevented with the nozzle closed. The AB light would generally blow the nozzle open however, with accompanying audio and visual effects. Although I think the flame coming out the intake could be temporarily distracting to an opponent in a scissors and maybe take him off his game. But tough on engines.

With the -21, It was always recommended to unload if possible when you went outboard and ease back to min burner until it lit. This problem actually went away when some clever Arizona ANG MX guy suggested retro-fitting the F-102 -23 AB with IIRC only 6 petals to the Hun. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) the F-100 was retired shortly after....

As far as an air-to-ground capability comment, the runway performance on a 90 degree day with 2X335 drops and 4 MK-82s was truly eye-watering.....

.....not in a good way.

Many thanks outlaw - didn't realise they used the -23AB.

Most photos from SEA tend to show lower drag Hun loadouts, not many with TERs. Understandable if you want to take off I guess.