"Pedal turn" versus "Conventional turn"

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krorvik

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Unread post21 Jun 2017, 20:22

Also, I distinctly remember "Dolby" Hanche mention that one of the advantages of the F-35 WVR was nosepointing ability. The F-35 seems to have the power in the vertical too...
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gta4

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 04:24

looks like F35 could use this instead of pedal turn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZilHmXU ... e=youtu.be
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lbk000

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 14:49

gta4 wrote:looks like F35 could use this instead of pedal turn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZilHmXU ... e=youtu.be

Nope, fundamentally different uses. The most important feature of the pedal turn is the offbore flight path -- in a sense it may be the holy grail of energy fighting. Traditional diving slashes have always been able to be stymied by a turn inside by the defender; the pedal turn allows the attacker to track the defender's turn without himself getting suckered into the defender's flight path (and therefore energy state).
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quicksilver

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 15:15

The air show hasn't changed anything but perceptions. The engineers at LM didnt wake up a couple months ago and decide to make the jet maneuverable. BFM hasn't become more relevant overnight; SA is still king, and killing other aircraft at range without them seeing you is still preferred (and likely). There still isnt a jet in the world that can turn as fast as a pilot can turn his or her head, thereby targeting for HOBS missiles.

But, it has dispelled some myths and in the process brought into question the credibility of a wide range of haters. It should also provide a cautionary lesson in modern "journalism." It behooves everyone to become a discerning consumer of information and those who might choose to inform us -- on any topic.
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vilters

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 20:38

A pedal turn is always an airshow, low speed, high AOA, crank the nose around the corner thing.

it proves low speed and high AOA controllability during a demo flight.

Combat purpose is on the same level as changing the angle of the Harrier exhausts during combat. => None.
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steve2267

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 21:06

vilters wrote:A pedal turn is always an airshow, low speed, high AOA, crank the nose around the corner thing.

it proves low speed and high AOA controllability during a demo flight.

Combat purpose is on the same level as changing the angle of the Harrier exhausts during combat. => None.


Uhh, based on numerous quotes of F-35 pilots in reference to a "pedal turn" as being ( or implied to be) extremely useful during BFM / dogfighting exercises, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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basher54321

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 22:14

quicksilver wrote:The air show hasn't changed anything but perceptions. The engineers at LM didnt wake up a couple months ago and decide to make the jet maneuverable. BFM hasn't become more relevant overnight; SA is still king, and killing other aircraft at range without them seeing you is still preferred (and likely). There still isnt a jet in the world that can turn as fast as a pilot can turn his or her head, thereby targeting for HOBS missiles.



this 8)
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vilters

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 22:30

@steve2267

Within visual range, perhaps. But the purpose is not to get in there.
Anyway, you loose so much energy, and end up so slow, that you'd better get a shot from it, or it's game over.
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count_to_10

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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 02:20

basher54321 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:The air show hasn't changed anything but perceptions. The engineers at LM didnt wake up a couple months ago and decide to make the jet maneuverable. BFM hasn't become more relevant overnight; SA is still king, and killing other aircraft at range without them seeing you is still preferred (and likely). There still isnt a jet in the world that can turn as fast as a pilot can turn his or her head, thereby targeting for HOBS missiles.



this 8)

Still, the whole situation reminds me of the "pit stop" screen near the end of "Cars".
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
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tailchase

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Unread post01 Jan 2019, 17:13

interesting to compare with the turn here at 4:00

https://youtu.be/IgD4QvxhFyU

(pedal turn and extreme "normal" turn). Which one is the most useful in your mind? In what circumstances?

PS Sion is a very specific place for airshows and should fit very well to F-35 demo (mostly in vertical plan). We haven't seen it yet there, but with the reopening of swiss eval, we will soon i hope.
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lbk000

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Unread post01 Jan 2019, 17:38

I see the pedal turn in the end as an elaboration of the defensive spiral.

In traditional BFM theory the defensive spiral is a suboptimal maneuver because it's a purely energy depleting move with risk outcomes. At the bottom of it you are out of speed and out of altitude and leaves you vulnerable. The winner is whoever comes out of it last, so depending on aircraft characteristics, altitude, and geography the maneuver can be much of a gamble.
However it is a very instinctive maneuver to execute, and while in the maneuver you are relatively safe since gravity is maximizing your rate such that it is difficult to match from a chase aspect. It can be used as a gambit to sucker the other guy down into a low energy state as well if you know you have better low energy performance, or if you want to challenge him to an energy building contest.

The pedal turn is effectively a defensive spiral with minimal radius characteristics. By claiming the inside of the spiral, the pedal turn possesses a positional advantage and mitigates a turning defender's aspect defense.

However there is more than one way to skin a cat -- simpler ways too. The pedal turn is relatively elaborate and an opponent may be reluctant to enter a defensive spiral. The pedal turn is not necessarily a good defensive maneuver either; it's very wasteful from an energy standpoint, like TVC maneuvers. Energy conservative, aerodynamic maneuvers will always be the most desirable maneuvers at the end of the day, it's just that when someone brings the rock against your scissors, you have to pull out the one-off counter for it.
Last edited by lbk000 on 01 Jan 2019, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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steve2267

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Unread post01 Jan 2019, 18:09

lbk000 wrote:
The pedal turn is simply one more option that can be exploited. Its use cases are specific. You cannot, for example, execute an uphill pedal turn.


Are you sure about that? If the pedal turn is related to the Herbst maneuver, there appear to be several ways to exploit a high alpha yawing maneuver, possibly in combination with a velocity vector roll:

viewtopic.php?p=365629#p365629
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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tailchase

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Unread post01 Jan 2019, 18:12

Both lose velocity imho, Rafale before turn, F-35 during. The idea is simply in which situations would you choose to turn a way or another? (sry never did any BFM from my "rallye"). I did not really mean "vs".
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lbk000

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Unread post01 Jan 2019, 18:26

steve2267 wrote:
lbk000 wrote:
The pedal turn is simply one more option that can be exploited. Its use cases are specific. You cannot, for example, execute an uphill pedal turn.


Are you sure about that? If the pedal turn is related to the Herbst maneuver, there appear to be several ways to exploit a high alpha yawing maneuver, possibly in combination with a velocity vector roll:

viewtopic.php?p=365629#p365629

Herbst and the Russian "cartwheel" snaproll are in the family of high alpha yaw maneuvers certainly. I've been strictly regarding our pedal turn as the downhill maneuver since that's the only maneuver that actually seems to be adopted by the services.

I rewrote my original post to explain my line of thinking re: application of VVR. In all of this I keep going back to the SEA joint exercise AAR panel and the lessons drawn about over-reliance on TVC. Pedal turn is not as aerodynamically heinous as TVC but I think it can never fundamentally replace aerodynamic maneuvers.
Last edited by lbk000 on 01 Jan 2019, 18:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post01 Jan 2019, 18:33

lbk000 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
lbk000 wrote:
The pedal turn is simply one more option that can be exploited. Its use cases are specific. You cannot, for example, execute an uphill pedal turn.


Are you sure about that? If the pedal turn is related to the Herbst maneuver, there appear to be several ways to exploit a high alpha yawing maneuver, possibly in combination with a velocity vector roll:

viewtopic.php?p=365629#p365629

Herbst and the Russian "cartwheel" snaproll are in the family of high alpha yaw maneuvers certainly. I've been strictly regarding our pedal turn as the downhill maneuver since that's the only maneuver that actually seems to be adopted by the services.



In air show demos, you never show your best cards...

lbk000 wrote:
I rewrote my original post to explain my line of thinking re: application of VVR. In all of this I keep going back to the SEA joint exercise AAR panel and the lessons drawn about over-reliance on TVC. Pedal turn is not as aerodynamically heinous as TVC but I think it can never fundamentally replace aerodynamic maneuvers.



You are, of course, free to write and post what you wish. However, I point out that since you edited your post 6 minutes after I quoted you, and your original statement was completely removed, future readers of this thread will likely become confused wondering WTF am I talking about / quoting. If you were to put back your original statement and preface your revised post with an “ETA:” line, readers would have an easier time following the conversation. FWIW.
Last edited by steve2267 on 01 Jan 2019, 18:51, edited 2 times in total.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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