Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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mair

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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 23:15

loke wrote:Where did I say the FP journo was lying?

I did not. IF the FP journo is wrong then most likely she was being manipulated.

In other news, the locals have seen traces of the yeti:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 107428.cms

IMHO the credibility of both India and Pakistan is very low... thus I am hesitant to draw any conclusions until a more reliable source (not just an anonymous leak) can comment on the F-16 dispute.

In the meantime, I suggest we all try to find some Yetis. Could be more exciting.

What could a more reliable source possibly be?
The US government has categorically refused to comment on F-16s due to bilateral military deals being confidential.

So unless one of those yetis was in Pakistani Kashmir and filmed the whole thing with an hd video camera,we’ll never know the truth 100%.
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vm

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Unread post01 May 2019, 02:39

The US withdrawal from Afghanistan is complicating the American position in the loss of the f16.
But I sincerely doubt even a American official statement would have a effect on the Pakistani official position.
Look at the narrative Pakistanis believe about the kargil war, where their PM rushed to Washington on the busy 4th of July to beg the American president to deter the Indians from increasing their war effort. Pakistanis believe its a great Pakistani tactical "victory".
Or the 1965 war which was started by pakistani army commondos infilterating kashmir in CIVILIAN CLOTHES. The Pakistanis celebrate that as DEFENSE day, after all the commondos were shot or caught. Haha.
Or Osama bin laden being killed in the pak cantonment area, but a typical Pakistani will claim all this to be a eyewash and that Osama was long dead.
The pak army has such a grip on the nations thinking, that even if a f16 is found crashed, their Baghdad Bob will pass it off as a 737.
No wonder no journalist in Pakistan has in the last 2 months asked their spokesperson why access to the madrassa is still curtailed and where has the 2nd pilot disappeared ? No pointed questions on his latest gaffe of the 2nd plane down, no investigative journalism, no hidden cameras from inside the madrassa, nothing. Can't imagine such a cover of secrecy in any democratic country.
The word of ispr chief is gospel in Pakistan.
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loke

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Unread post01 May 2019, 09:17

mair wrote:
loke wrote:Where did I say the FP journo was lying?

I did not. IF the FP journo is wrong then most likely she was being manipulated.

In other news, the locals have seen traces of the yeti:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 107428.cms

IMHO the credibility of both India and Pakistan is very low... thus I am hesitant to draw any conclusions until a more reliable source (not just an anonymous leak) can comment on the F-16 dispute.

In the meantime, I suggest we all try to find some Yetis. Could be more exciting.

What could a more reliable source possibly be?
The US government has categorically refused to comment on F-16s due to bilateral military deals being confidential.

So unless one of those yetis was in Pakistani Kashmir and filmed the whole thing with an hd video camera,we’ll never know the truth 100%.

Sooner or later the truth will come out -- currently I think the most likely scenario is that no F-16 was shot down, but as stated repeatedly even if I think that scenario is more likely, it is not yet proven... Just because we do not currently have reliable answer there is no reason to jump to conclusions :wink:
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mair

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Unread post01 May 2019, 09:36

loke wrote:Sooner or later the truth will come out -- currently I think the most likely scenario is that no F-16 was shot down, but as stated repeatedly even if I think that scenario is more likely, it is not yet proven... Just because we do not currently have reliable answer there is no reason to jump to conclusions :wink:


Well this i agree with completely. Based off all available evidence it’s highly improbable that an F-16 was downed but as you rightly point out it cannot be stated with 100% certainty(unless data from something akin to wiki leaks unveiled government files at some point in the future, the way to check the credibility would be easy, I.e if they talk about thousands of other documents known or suspected to be true including this it’s true if they speak only about the F-16s and nothing else it’s an Indian troll(like the guy above lol) .
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madrat

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Unread post01 May 2019, 13:12

I think the biggest question that remains in this whole incident is if Sukhois were targeted, They probably were at some point going on superficial sources, but I'm starting to think the only evidence so far alludes to perhaps not.
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Shimud

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Unread post01 May 2019, 14:07

madrat wrote:I think the biggest question that remains in this whole incident is if Sukhois were targeted...


We may never know it. For IAF, admitting an Su-30 down is going to be a big embarrassment.
For PAF, not claiming an Su down is a blessing in disguise. They now know the rules of business. It’s in their interest to not to reveal it. A few IAF MiGs shot down every few years is sufficient to raise the morale of service.
As of now, PAF has not spoken a single word to claim an Su. No official statement.

PAF has played it professionally, safe and smart. Even if they have got one, they don’t have a credible proof in hand to claim it in front of the world. Why bother!
On the other hand, IAF has got nothing concrete either but they are adamant…still claiming an F-16. Not to mention the missing proof for 300 souls either, annihilated during Mirage strikes…

As of writing these lines, the score card is (status quo!):
- 1 Indian MiG down
- 1 Indian Mi-17 down
- 1 Pakistani crow (pun intended, of course) killed on the ground as a result of Indian Mirage-2000 strikes
- A poor Pakistani fella has suffered minor bruises
- 24 PAF jets struck Indian ground targets in Kashmir and returned back safely, as reported by Indian media.
I am badly missing Giora Epstein on the last bit :wink:

A friend has forwarded me a twitter link, claiming that the strikes at Jabba top (specific location in Balakot purported to have been targeted by IAF) were carried out by PAF aircraft instead of IAF Mirages.
https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 17/photo/1

May I suggest the moderators to change the title of this thread to present the factual position on the ground and give due credit to PAF for their sheer hard work :bang:
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pafrocks1

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Unread post01 May 2019, 14:52

Its time to bust some Indian myths.

2x R-77 and 2x R-73 were recovered from Mig-21 wreckage. 1 R-73 did explode but on its own pylon/launch rail and most probably on the ground when the plane was still engulfed in flames. Because of the explosion the left wing flipped upside down exposing the pylon with R-73 tail section stick attached to it.


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vm

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Unread post01 May 2019, 16:57

pafrocks1 wrote:Its time to bust some Indian myths.

2x R-77 and 2x R-73 were recovered from Mig-21 wreckage. 1 R-73 did explode but on its own pylon/launch rail and most probably on the ground when the plane was still engulfed in flames. Because of the explosion the left wing flipped upside down exposing the pylon with R-73 tail section stick attached to it.


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So you are claiming that the downed mig21 was due to malfunctioning of its own missile. Possible. Since no missile trail before impact has been video graphed, this malfunction is a real possibility.
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vm

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Unread post01 May 2019, 17:02

Direct result of the IAF bombing terrorist camps in Pakistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48124693
Masood Azhar: Jaish-e-Mohammed leader listed as terrorist by UN


"Maulana Masood Azhar founded JeM in 1999
The UN has designated the leader of a militant group behind a deadly bomb attack that brought India and Pakistan to the brink of war as a terrorist.
Masood Azhar is the leader of Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM), which carried out a suicide bombing in February killing 40 troops in Indian-administered Kashmir.
The UN move comes after China dropped its objection to the listing. India hailed it as a diplomatic victory."

After years of resisting, China has come on board and withdrawn support from pakistan in this case.
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jedit

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Unread post01 May 2019, 17:12

vm wrote:India has stood by its official statements and not changed them. It has tried to give the evidence it can but since balakot is in Pakistan, and for what ever reason pak army is suspiciously wary about giving access to the "uneffected" madrassa, there will be a question mark on the Pakistani version.
Similarly f16 has been shot down in Pakistan and we know that the Pakistan is a army state, the truth will take time to come out. Remember kargil in 1999. Pakistan has till now not acknowledged it was a army operation and it lost 4000 soldiers.
In the mean time, the ispr Baghdad Bob has changed his statements so many times, it's tragic.
Even today he claimed to have shot down 2 iaf planes, which as per him "everyone" has seen. Not the helio, planes.
He first said 2 pilots are in custody. This was repeated by the pak PM after 7 hours in Pakistan parliament.
Then ispr head said 1 pilot.
Then said in a TV interview that 1 is dead.
So again backtracked.
He is more of a internet warrior than a official spokesperson.


- Standing by a statement by IAF of Balakot strikes is not evidence of the casualty claims.
- Standing by original statement about F16 is not evidence of F16 downing.
- If Indian Army now claims Yeti citing, it does not discredit all their past achievements or claims that actually have credible evidence.
- Pakistan's statement of multiple pilots is not evidence of a F16 downing.

In short,

You cannot say, well this witness has not changed his or her testimony in 2 court cases in the past, so by implication their testimony should be accepted for an unrelated case. It does not work in real world. If you study psychology, you will understand the concept of connecting dots and making projections and projection in most cases leads you to believe the outcome you favor or wish to be true. Indians making this stance is not unexpected, however neutrals or the other party are equally if not more justified in asking for concrete evidence and not believing unverified claims. Your repeated assertions, diversions to topics like Kargil, Masood Azhar are well noted and it serves to diminish your claim since anyone with concrete evidence would provide evidence rather than try and discredit the other party to prove a point. Let me know if any of this does not make sense.
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basher54321

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Unread post01 May 2019, 17:30

pafrocks1 wrote:Its time to bust some Indian myths.

2x R-77 and 2x R-73 were recovered from Mig-21 wreckage. 1 R-73 did explode but on its own pylon/launch rail and most probably on the ground when the plane was still engulfed in flames. Because of the explosion the left wing flipped upside down exposing the pylon with R-73 tail section stick attached to it.



The 6th image down is actually a 3D model. Even if it is accurate that would be missing the point - because anyone can create or change it. Either way is not good enough to be presented in a thread like this. Especially when there are older photos of the missile available.
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pafrocks1

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Unread post01 May 2019, 19:02

basher54321 wrote:
pafrocks1 wrote:Its time to bust some Indian myths.

2x R-77 and 2x R-73 were recovered from Mig-21 wreckage. 1 R-73 did explode but on its own pylon/launch rail and most probably on the ground when the plane was still engulfed in flames. Because of the explosion the left wing flipped upside down exposing the pylon with R-73 tail section stick attached to it.



The 6th image down is actually a 3D model. Even if it is accurate that would be missing the point - because anyone can create or change it. Either way is not good enough to be presented in a thread like this. Especially when there are older photos of the missile available.


Then just replace that image with an actual R-73 tail section and it will still not change the result and it will certainly not be in India's favor! LOL
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Unread post01 May 2019, 19:21

vm wrote:So you are claiming that the downed mig21 was due to malfunctioning of its own missile. Possible. Since no missile trail before impact has been video graphed, this malfunction is a real possibility.


Would you guys for once accept your defeat and move on like real men instead of being pathological liars and delusional of the reality?

Where have I mentioned that Mig-21 crashed due to a malfunctioned missile? stop pretending stuff.

Mig-21 wreckage itself is enough of an evidence because it was shot down and the wreckage was spread across couple of KM radius and the tail section had shrapnel penetration.

AbhiNoneDone was trying to be a hero by entering PAK air space and was searching for a target, upon entering he was set up in a PAF air defence trap which he fell for and his Mig-21 was struck and most probably by a heat seeker since tail section received alot of shrapnel and it was split from main fuselage and found in another location.

Now read this part, the main fuselage was engulfed in fire and only after impact on ground left wing R-73 exploded causing the the left wing with pylon to flip upside down (Notice the R-73 tail section still has dirt which indicates that it first impacted the ground and after explosion the wing flipped).

I know for Indians accepting R-73 tail section stuck to the pylon is a final nail to the flying coffin case! and many of indian myths will be busted. meaning the two parachute video belongs to Su-30 :mrgreen: if you are going to refute the above R-73 tail section pictures then you need to provide valuable reason instead of using divert tactics.
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mair

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Unread post02 May 2019, 10:15

vm wrote:Direct result of the IAF bombing terrorist camps in Pakistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48124693
Masood Azhar: Jaish-e-Mohammed leader listed as terrorist by UN


"Maulana Masood Azhar founded JeM in 1999
The UN has designated the leader of a militant group behind a deadly bomb attack that brought India and Pakistan to the brink of war as a terrorist.
Masood Azhar is the leader of Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM), which carried out a suicide bombing in February killing 40 troops in Indian-administered Kashmir.
The UN move comes after China dropped its objection to the listing. India hailed it as a diplomatic victory."

After years of resisting, China has come on board and withdrawn support from pakistan in this case.


Lol do you Indians never get tired of living in a fictitious world? JeM has been banned in Pakistan since 2002, maulana azhar was in YOUR jail before Indian govt buckled under pressure and released him to Afghanistan, from where he was smuggled into Pakistan. After Pakistan’s own Zarb e Azab, he and his ilks days were always numbered.

The only direct result of the IAF air strike was the humiliation of the Indian military and their realisation that they could not deter Pakistan, stated by none other than ex Indian army officer praveen sawhney:
https://youtu.be/thNkjR2bM8o
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vm

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Unread post02 May 2019, 13:21

mair wrote:
vm wrote:Direct result of the IAF bombing terrorist camps in Pakistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48124693
Masood Azhar: Jaish-e-Mohammed leader listed as terrorist by UN


"Maulana Masood Azhar founded JeM in 1999
The UN has designated the leader of a militant group behind a deadly bomb attack that brought India and Pakistan to the brink of war as a terrorist.
Masood Azhar is the leader of Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM), which carried out a suicide bombing in February killing 40 troops in Indian-administered Kashmir.
The UN move comes after China dropped its objection to the listing. India hailed it as a diplomatic victory."

After years of resisting, China has come on board and withdrawn support from pakistan in this case.


Lol do you Indians never get tired of living in a fictitious world? JeM has been banned in Pakistan since 2002, maulana azhar was in YOUR jail before Indian govt buckled under pressure and released him to Afghanistan, from where he was smuggled into Pakistan. After Pakistan’s own Zarb e Azab, he and his ilks days were always numbered.

The only direct result of the IAF air strike was the humiliation of the Indian military and their realisation that they could not deter Pakistan, stated by none other than ex Indian army officer praveen sawhney:
https://youtu.be/thNkjR2bM8o

You do realize you are fooling no one.
JEM was banned but its chiefs opened organisations under new names.
Now this guy masood has been banned. So if he opens any new company, it won't matter. Since he is personally under sanctions.
And thanks for telling everyone who pakistan and china were supporting. This guy was released in exchange for a hijacked flight to Afghanistan and he fled to Pakistan. Where he used to openly operate.
Till a fortnight ago your pak government claimed they had no credible evidence against this Saint.
Guess must be a shock for you.
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