Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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weasel1962

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 01:11

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... n-pakistan

The two days of air raids and skirmishes have provoked a deluge of misleading or outright false reports on social media and from regional media outlets. Virtually all of the local reporting on the conflict has cited anonymous sources and often makes extraordinary claims that demand additional and substantial evidence to be believed.


A lot of evidence here based on recent newbie account posts on this thread...
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warbird86

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 06:10

mair wrote:
aten wrote:[]


Just to add to what you stated, what I also find interesting is the fact that Indians are claiming that 4 to 5 AIM120 were fired over Kashmir that day (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms). The fact that they discovered one AIM120 the next day is interesting enough as Spain is probably still search for theirs over Estonia, but what happened to remaining 3 to 4 AMRAAMs? Why are they not found? Indians friends are saying that Kashmir is a lot more densely populated than Estonia and the AIM120 they found hit the ground injuring someone and thats how it was found(https://t.co/xAFul4jyky) However no image of impact crater mentioned in the article has been posted anywhere AFAIK. I find it strange that they found one AMRAAM so quickly and others are not found at all, not sure if they are even looking for them.


That AMRAAM very probably seems to have been extracted from the wreckage, since finding the scraps of a high speed missile in the vast Kashmiri mountains is no mean feat. What’s more, this scrap was present in Delhi within 24 hours in time for the press conference by the Indian military top brass. Only question for me is whether said wreckage was an inadvertently hit mi 17 or a deliberately hit Su-30/some other IAF jet.

The wreckage of one AMRAAM was easy to find as it crashed into a village badly injuring a farmer.
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boilermaker

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 06:11

So I see Indian news claiming their M2000 has helmet cueing. Is this true?
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pagan

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 06:37

Two videos tell the tale.

First video with the white puffs of plane #1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOdrITApv0&fbclid=

Second video of the missile burst for plane #2 with the white puffs from plane #1 visible in the foreground (ignore the text; fake news)
https://twitter.com/ajayjandyal/status/ ... 5787124736

Two planes down.

That the Pakistani authorities did not show imagery of the 2nd one, after claiming 2 planes down and multiple pilots tells its own story.
=====

The chopper went down nearly 100 KM from the battle-zone. A highly unlikely crash though and could have been an RPG or a ManPad shot.
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weasel1962

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 06:52

Looks like fake news and propaganda trolling is not new.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html

India has more fake news than anywhere else in the world, report says


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia- ... s-in-india
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/ ... 32217.html

Modi's campaign managers had invested themselves heavily into tapping this medium to set the narrative towards an incontrovertible win.


Unfortunately, get to witness this first hand.
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 07:04

botsing wrote:Currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

On a positive note; it makes it rather easy to track the propaganda trolls. :twisted:

Agreed but as a experienced person what's your take on the claims based on available facts ?
Also are the mods in this forum deliberately allowing the new trolls and their propaganda to drive traffic to the site ?
My take is that the 1 mig21 loss by India is the only verified loss. And even this loss might be from ground fired missile. Because Pakistanis have till date not released the pilots view of taking a shot. Also why arnt any missile trails visible in the video prior to the plane catching fire.?
Secondly the claim by the Pakistani spokesperson maj gen that they have 2 pilots in custody, with one admitted to hospital, which they later reduced to one pilot caught, is suspicious.
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viper21

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 08:27

Right now, there's a lot of fake news around this air combat in the Indian media. For example, they knew what the captured Indian pilot has been saying even BEFORE he was released back to India.

Some of their "journalists" have even drawn up imaginary flight paths of all the aircrafts in action, heck even the paths of missile shots taken at IAF jets.

So, anything coming from there, take it with a pinch of salt.

I think the IAF shot themselves in the foot by showing the AMRAAM wreckage so early, within 24 hours. How, you may ask?

This only gives credence to PAF's stance that the SU-30MKI that was shot down fell into Indian side. The way AMRAAM has been broken into pieces, 80% chance that it was extracted from the wreckage.

No, it was not taken out from the Mi-17 wreckage. That chopper was probably lost to friendly fire from the IAF itself, or their own SAMs: thequint dot com/news/india/budgam-chopper-crash-court-of-inquiry-probing-all-angles-including-friendly-fire


PAF cannot and will not hide F-16s loss, that can be ruled out. LM/US will immediately know.

Indians can hide their MKI loss, and Russia will never want to reveal it to the world that it was shot down by a US-made jet.


Another thing that people miss is, Su-30MKI lights up like a GIANT FLOODLIGHT on any radar. It has a huuuuge RCS, and it's a big magnet for any radar-guided missile like an AMRAAM.

Right now, IAF has changed the story and say MKI was indeed shot at with an AMRAAM, but it "evaded" the missile.

Highly doubtful, when an experienced Viper pilot like Nauman Ali Khan has made a claim that he shot down the 2nd jet.


We might never get 100% undeniable evidence from any side, I guess.
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weasel1962

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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 09:09

Pakistani TV on Pakistani fake news

https://www.geo.tv/latest/211174-pakist ... ws-problem

With the rise of the social media, fake news has become a serious societal issue in Pakistan. People, either common or famous do not bother to check facts of even the more serious and defamatory news before sharing them on social media and they are circulated frivolously like petty jokes.


Our crisis is that we don’t bother to re-check or take responsibility to report confirmed news. We just believe at discretion without any proof. One can find out everything at the click of a button and readily confirm the credibility of news from reliable sources but we don’t want to waste those precious minutes from our busy lives and not only take it as it comes but also pass it on irresponsibly and become a participant in creating the pool of fake information.


Botsing already highlighted currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

I can only add 100% agreed.
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 15:52

So we need to give it time. Up until then, there will be lots of speculation.

Until we know definitively, I suggest we put Tom Cooper on the case. Even without all of the known facts, I think his insights would be quite interesting...
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 16:05

tphuang wrote:This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

They had a mig-21 shot down.

They only got one shot off on R-73. The downed pilots claimed this manage to bring down F-16. Funny, since there is no wreckage. And I'm personally quite dubious of Mig-21's situation awareness when it's going down in flames.

Their amazing Su-30 apparently never locked onto any PAF aircraft to even launch weapons.

They got locked on multiple times by PAF F-16s. Long enough to be fired at.

They managed to evade some AMRAAMs fired at the edge of their range (rather than like within 20 miles which would have much better chance of success)

What's there to be proud of from IAF or Su-30 point of view? The flankers couldn't lock onto any F-16s. They defeated AMRAAMs at a range that they should be able to get away with. Those shots were more like hail marys than anything else.


Quite true (about the SU-30). It was in the mix, by India's own account. It was locked onto by PAK F-16's multiple times (not vice versa), and according to them, evaded all ARMAAM's.

So even without losing an SU-30, it wasn't a good showing for India's crown jewel of fighters. Now sure, nobody yet knows the circumstances surrounding such. But if they got locked onto by F-16's, the SU-30's BARS radar should have been able to respond in kind, but didn't. Was it effectively jammed by PAK fighters? Did the SU-30's radar perhaps have a malfunction? Nobody knows.

But I think its fair to say the SU-30 didn't have a good showing, and quite possibly a really bad one. How this is going to go over with Russia/other countries that operate/are interested in the Flanker is anyone's guess. It's likely India is going to be reverse engineering what went wrong (in the air to air arena) for a long time. And if it's true the Mirage 2000's/Spice PGM's missed, they'll be looking hard at that too..
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 18:08

viper21 wrote:Right now, there's a lot of fake news around this air combat in the Indian media. For example, they knew what the captured Indian pilot has been saying even BEFORE he was released back to India.

Some of their "journalists" have even drawn up imaginary flight paths of all the aircrafts in action, heck even the paths of missile shots taken at IAF jets.

So, anything coming from there, take it with a pinch of salt.

I think the IAF shot themselves in the foot by showing the AMRAAM wreckage so early, within 24 hours. How, you may ask?

This only gives credence to PAF's stance that the SU-30MKI that was shot down fell into Indian side. The way AMRAAM has been broken into pieces, 80% chance that it was extracted from the wreckage.

No, it was not taken out from the Mi-17 wreckage. That chopper was probably lost to friendly fire from the IAF itself, or their own SAMs: thequint dot com/news/india/budgam-chopper-crash-court-of-inquiry-probing-all-angles-including-friendly-fire


PAF cannot and will not hide F-16s loss, that can be ruled out. LM/US will immediately know.

Indians can hide their MKI loss, and Russia will never want to reveal it to the world that it was shot down by a US-made jet.


Another thing that people miss is, Su-30MKI lights up like a GIANT FLOODLIGHT on any radar. It has a huuuuge RCS, and it's a big magnet for any radar-guided missile like an AMRAAM.

Right now, IAF has changed the story and say MKI was indeed shot at with an AMRAAM, but it "evaded" the missile.

Highly doubtful, when an experienced Viper pilot like Nauman Ali Khan has made a claim that he shot down the 2nd jet.


We might never get 100% undeniable evidence from any side, I guess.


I don't know enough on the topic to comment on rest of what you said, but su-30mki definitely lights up like a giant floodlight on any radar.
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 19:45

...and more mig-21s are shot down by birds than missiles. Another lost today as a result of bird strike. The one thing that is combat proven is that the ejection seat works.
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 20:05

tphuang wrote:
viper21 wrote:Right now, there's a lot of fake news around this air combat in the Indian media. For example, they knew what the captured Indian pilot has been saying even BEFORE he was released back to India.

Some of their "journalists" have even drawn up imaginary flight paths of all the aircrafts in action, heck even the paths of missile shots taken at IAF jets.

So, anything coming from there, take it with a pinch of salt.

I think the IAF shot themselves in the foot by showing the AMRAAM wreckage so early, within 24 hours. How, you may ask?

This only gives credence to PAF's stance that the SU-30MKI that was shot down fell into Indian side. The way AMRAAM has been broken into pieces, 80% chance that it was extracted from the wreckage.

No, it was not taken out from the Mi-17 wreckage. That chopper was probably lost to friendly fire from the IAF itself, or their own SAMs: thequint dot com/news/india/budgam-chopper-crash-court-of-inquiry-probing-all-angles-including-friendly-fire


PAF cannot and will not hide F-16s loss, that can be ruled out. LM/US will immediately know.

Indians can hide their MKI loss, and Russia will never want to reveal it to the world that it was shot down by a US-made jet.


Another thing that people miss is, Su-30MKI lights up like a GIANT FLOODLIGHT on any radar. It has a huuuuge RCS, and it's a big magnet for any radar-guided missile like an AMRAAM.

Right now, IAF has changed the story and say MKI was indeed shot at with an AMRAAM, but it "evaded" the missile.

Highly doubtful, when an experienced Viper pilot like Nauman Ali Khan has made a claim that he shot down the 2nd jet.


We might never get 100% undeniable evidence from any side, I guess.


I don't know enough on the topic to comment on rest of what you said, but su-30mki definitely lights up like a giant floodlight on any radar.



Yes, in a BVR engagement it's at quite a big disadvantage.

Btw are you the same guy who used to be on sinodefence.. seeing you after so many years.
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 22:34

weasel1962 wrote:...and more mig-21s are shot down by birds than missiles. Another lost today as a result of bird strike. The one thing that is combat proven is that the ejection seat works.


I keep waiting for Dehli to showcase the wreckage of a Viper, but i`m still waiting. The picture they showed of an AMRAAM doesn`t look like it detonated, could it have been what was left of a missile that didnt guide and simply crashed?
Until I see a wrecked F-16 I call BS on that claim.
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Unread post08 Mar 2019, 23:02

viper21 wrote:Yes, in a BVR engagement it's at quite a big disadvantage.

Btw are you the same guy who used to be on sinodefence.. seeing you after so many years.


Yes I am. SDF was too much time commitment for me to stick around.
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