Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

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mixelflick

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Unread post23 Feb 2019, 13:59

hythelday wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off.

Precipitously!


So what exactly would Su-35 buyers get instead?

Look up how many T-90s Russia sold since GW (a lot).


hythelday wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off.

Precipitously!


So what exactly would Su-35 buyers get instead?

Look up how many T-90s Russia sold since GW (a lot).


Well, that's my point - there's nothing the Russians have that's better. You may argue the SU-30SM or like derivative, but it still has the RCS of a barn door and will likely be obliterated before it knows the F-35 is there.

They're not getting the SU-57 anytime soon, that much is clear. And even if they could, how many nations could afford it? I don't see it coming in at any less than $100 million/copy, at least if they include all the whiz bang tech they're crowing about. No, Russian allies are going to have to make due with 2nd best fighters.

And in this game, 2nd best = dead
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hythelday

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Unread post23 Feb 2019, 14:36

Your point was that in the absence of adequate answer to F-35 sales of Russian fighters (Flanker family) would plummet, as soon as one Flanker is defeated in combat. The answer is no - because weapon market is not exactly the kind of market where customer can choose freely what it buys.
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mixelflick

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 14:49

hythelday wrote:Your point was that in the absence of adequate answer to F-35 sales of Russian fighters (Flanker family) would plummet, as soon as one Flanker is defeated in combat. The answer is no - because weapon market is not exactly the kind of market where customer can choose freely what it buys.


Can you elaborate on this please?

When the Shah of Iran wanted a fighter capable of downing Iraqi Foxbats, he came to the US to see a "flyoff" between the F-14 and F-15 at Andrews AFB, I think it was. When the demo's were complete, the story is that he walked past the F-15 without even looking at it, made a beeline to the F-14 and as we know, bought 80 of them (79 delivered).

Does it work differently in other countries? Now sure, I realize politics comes into play. Like the fact Egypt or Quatar aren't getting the F-35, at least not for a LONG time (to preserve Israel's qualitative edge). I'm not asking to be a wise guy either, interested in learning.

Thank you
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hythelday

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 18:10

mixelflick wrote:Can you elaborate on this please?


Yes, here's your original post:

mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off. Precipitously!


My counter-argument is that Flanker sales will not depend that much on the performance of Flankers in actual combat, because 1) countries don't always buy top of the line stuff simply because it is not sold to them 2) weapon sales today are much like marriage in the days of royals - prime way to broker geo-military-political deals 3) tech transfer 4) other reasons such as corruption etc. I.e. After Iraqi T-72s were smashed in combat in the most decisive way imaginable India still decided to purchase more than a thousand T-90s, even though T-90 was actually supposed to be called T-72BU, since it is just a further development of the original Ural.

mixelflick wrote:When the Shah of Iran wanted a fighter capable of downing Iraqi Foxbats, he came to the US to see a "flyoff" between the F-14 and F-15 at Andrews AFB, I think it was. When the demo's were complete, the story is that he walked past the F-15 without even looking at it, made a beeline to the F-14 and as we know, bought 80 of them (79 delivered).

Does it work differently in other countries? Now sure, I realize politics comes into play. Like the fact Egypt or Quatar aren't getting the F-35, at least not for a LONG time (to preserve Israel's qualitative edge). I'm not asking to be a wise guy either, interested in learning.

Thank you


I am really glad that you bring out this wonderful story, again. Says more than I ever could. A decision based on a whim of an autocrat far removed from military aviation sealed the fate of F-14 in Iranian service. Not even a proper eval, but a demo flight. Much like the Shah, you are all over Tomcat purely because of the looks, not because of performance.

You know, there was another air force looking for air superiority fighter at that time, too:
In 1974, the IAF assembled a test team for choosing an air dominance plane that would ensure the IAF's superiority over the Arab air forces for years to come. The candidates were the F-14 and the F-15, both of which were flown in the US by IAF pilots, who tested maneuverability, weapons systems and flight characteristics. The test team decided unanimously that the F-15 was a better plane, and one that could determine the shape of the battle and attain victory against every type of plane in the Arab arsenals

http://m.iaf.org.il/7261-18181-en/IAF.aspx

I would take IAF pilots' decision over Iranian Shah any time, every time. The had to worry about Syrian and Egyptian Foxbats too.
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 18:23

The Shah was an ex-pilot and if you read Tom Cooper's book they had already decided on F-14 before that demo based on detailed analysis of all its characteristics, the demo was as much for F-15's benefit than for anything else. You can't really argue they chose wrongly seeing how it caused so much trouble for the Iraqis at long range, i.e. it handled the Foxbat better with the AWG-9/Phoenix then the F-15 did with APG-63/Sparrow.
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 19:27

marsavian wrote:i.e. it handled the Foxbat better with the AWG-9/Phoenix then the F-15 did with APG-63/Sparrow.

They did?
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sferrin

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 22:34

hythelday wrote:
marsavian wrote:i.e. it handled the Foxbat better with the AWG-9/Phoenix then the F-15 did with APG-63/Sparrow.

They did?


The F-14 had already shown it could shoot down a Mig-25 by shooting down at least one BOMARC at speed and altitude. I'm not aware of any such testing with the F-15. (But I also seem recall there were some shenanigans going on that influenced the F-14 decision over the F-15. Nothing illegal, I recall laughing when I read the story, but I don't recall the details.)
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 22:39

sferrin wrote:But I also seem recall there were some shenanigans going on that influenced the F-14 decision over the F-15. Nothing illegal, I recall laughing when I read the story, but I don't recall the details.)

That the F-14 was sitting at full mil the whole F-15 display so that it was light enough to have amazing performance and land on vapors? In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 23:48

According to an Israeli source it was the Recon MiG-25s at high alt/Mach they had problems with - but IIRC this was fixed with later radar software revisions (some point after the 82 conflict).
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sferrin

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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 00:45

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.


Are there any available stats on this? The only one I'm aware of was an instance of a HAWK hitting a Mig-25 at altitude, damaging it enough that it slowed down, and descended, where it was finished off by an F-15.
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 01:54

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
sferrin wrote:But I also seem recall there were some shenanigans going on that influenced the F-14 decision over the F-15. Nothing illegal, I recall laughing when I read the story, but I don't recall the details.)

That the F-14 was sitting at full mil the whole F-15 display so that it was light enough to have amazing performance and land on vapors? In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.


IIRC, the Cat had like 8% fuel and the F-15 had like 30% so it gave them roughly the same T/W ratio, additionally, the pilot flew it like he just stole it.
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 02:03

The US is fortunate that Iran procured the F-14. Contrary to popular belief, the liberal democrats were just as anti-military as they are today. The tomcat was in very real jeapordy of being canceled by congress. Some of the highlights that I recall noted the overly complicated wings (not counting the swing wing mechanism) and the overly complicated and troublesome hydraulic system, and the pos engines. Tomcat was very close to being canceled. Expensive, expensive missiles, and worrisome reliability. Then Iran ordered it and the USN was then allowed to proceed with replacing the phantoms.

If Iran had not ordered the tomcat, Maverick and Goose might have been flying an advanced phantom, and The Final Countdown would have featured phantoms splashing the WWII Japanese fighters.

We can postulate that if the tomcat were canceled that the Navy would have developed something different. But not likely till the 90s as phantoms were built for a LONG time and little support would exist for a new navy fighter after the f-111 fiasco and then the f-14 fiasco.
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 03:02

-19 powered Phantoms
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 03:02

sferrin wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.


Are there any available stats on this? The only one I'm aware of was an instance of a HAWK hitting a Mig-25 at altitude, damaging it enough that it slowed down, and descended, where it was finished off by an F-15.



IIRC, most of the F-15/Aim-7 shots were tail chase with the MiG-25 having at a significant speed/distance advantage. GW1 saw 2 confirmed MiG-25 kills by F-15’s? No doubt lowest Pk per missile shot by target in GW1which isn’t surprising considering ambush tactic employed by the MiG’s.

As far as F-14 display to the Shah, give some credit to the pilot, by all accounts he wow’d the crowd. According to pilots, the F-14 was built like a block of steel, 7.33G limit be damned. At least a few accounts from both F-14 and -15 pilots recall them exceeding 9-10G in ACEVAL/AIMVAL evals. Glad the Shah got the F-14’s, the Tf-30 was horrific at high AoA and compressor stalls with any rapid throttle inputs. We have to be thankful everyday we didn’t give the Iranians the F100 (not that it was all that problem free in the 70’s)
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 03:12

Israeli pilots bagged Foxbats with face shots.
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