Air tactics during the Vietnam War

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MKopack

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Unread post12 Jan 2007, 12:37

Thanks Snake, I just thought that I remembered the camera under the nose (as a 12 year old kid on the flightline with the VA ANG's last 'Chief's) and I thought I'd throw it in.

What was the Hun like to fly, especially thinking back after you transitioned to the F-4, and others? There was quite a 'generational' change in technology between them. I also had the opportunity to spend some time on the flightline around the MA and CT ANG's 'Super Sabres' and one of those aviation memories that I'll never forget was watching an entire squadron 'elephant walk' from EOR, the noise, the smoke, all of those hard lightling afterburners in a MITO launch with each acft going into a max climb at the far end of the runway.

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Great thing about this website is that if you have a question about something, you don't have to trust Wikipedia, you can ask somebody who was actually there.

Mike
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56TTW/63TFTS 1987-1989
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Snake-1

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Unread post15 Jan 2007, 20:03

MKopack

The Hun was a great bird in its time but when loaded up with ordnance it couldn't carry much nor go that far. WE used to have a saying at Bien Hoa in the A-37 --- i.e., we could go futher, stay longer, and deliver more and be more accurate then the Hun. Used to drive the Hun drivers of that time nuts.

But back to the subject.

As I said the Hun was a great bird in the 50's and early 60's. But when the double ugly came into being wearing Air Force livery she rapidly became a second class citizen (just like the addition of any other new bird coming on line with all its improvements). Compared to the 4 the Hun was a little more sluggish in handling while the 4 handled and had the same quick responses of the T-38. In fact, alot of the early students to the 4 fresh out of UPT were surprised at how such a big a$$ bird could handle so easily. Then there was the superior acceleration of the 4 with its great big 79's over the Hun. And as for ordnance you had the 4 sparrows, 4 sidewinders (on shoulder mounts on the pylons), later the gun, and a very wide variety of weapons packages that you could carry a greater distance then the old Super Sabre. And the lower wing loading made the 4 much more maneuverable.

At the risk or getting shot by all the loyal viper jocks out there I've got to say that my favorite of all the birds I flew (including the Viper) has to remain the 4. Maybe its my age, or experience I had with her, or how many times she brought me home although she was really hurting she's still my favorite.

Or maybe I was just to old to fathom what a great bird the Viper was and is today. Sure wish we would have had it in SEA. The kill rate would be vastly different then what is listed in the history books today.

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maddog2840

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Unread post05 Mar 2008, 06:39

This post is my attempt to bring a great thread back to the top of the list.

Press.
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Unread post07 Mar 2008, 18:58

Salute!

TNX, dog, we need to talk about history or we'll be "doomed to ....

Snake and I flew the ThunderSqeack together back in '68. Was a blast to pass thru 16K and zoom up to 20K while the Huns were maxed out at 15K and had to use burner to get higher. And we were carrying more weight, but our gross weight was less than theirs.

I passed on every chance to fly the Rhino. Something about single-seat, single-engine has always appealed to a warrior. The knights of old had one heart, and they rode a beast with only one heart. Somehow, that poetic concept gets to ya, doesn't it?

I truly respect the Snake, and it's funny, but the day we got to Korat in 1972 a wild man was buzzing the field. Whazzup? A double-ugly puke says, the guy just got a Mig kill. Ohhh, neat. Turns out it was the Snake, heh heh.

Let's face it, the Rhino carried the load for many years and has a special place in history and our souls.

That being said, the plane depends upon the environment. I would take the Dragonfly any day in 'ghan. Over Iraq I would like the Viper. But when distance to tgt is 300 miles ( no tankers around) and you have to drop a ton of eggs, I'd take the SLUF.

later,

Gums sends ...
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"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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Snake-1

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Unread post07 Mar 2008, 19:26

GUMMO!!!

You are right---- there is nothing at all like a single seat "go fast machine" with lotsa stuff to let loose on the bad guy.
But in that era long long ago up over the north going in with an eight hundred pound gorilla and gomer throwing everything at us, including the kitchen sink, there was nothing better then that second set of eyeballs, and Billy was the best there was, to spot what you missed.

I also agree with your follow on set of birds for the Iraq, Afgan area.

That little super Tweet was a Hellava bird to fly and the last of the man and machine era (now--- man, computer, machine). What was great to see at Bien Hoa in 72, when we did a sortie recovered at Bien Hoa and then flew another sortie home was the ramps in front of the "Ramrods, Buzzards, and Dice" were now A-37s and no more F-100s. Must have driven those Hun drivers crazy to transition into a bird that gave alot of S&*@ to.

Snake

By the By you missed a grerat reunion---- the best yet.
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Gums

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Unread post29 Apr 2012, 19:20

Punt!

Had to do some research and remembered this one.

Gums sends...
Gums
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"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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maddog2840

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 07:54

Here's some Keith Ferris Artwork.
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maddog2840

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 07:57

The River Rats. The Red River Flying Club. What others?
Last edited by maddog2840 on 04 Aug 2012, 08:04, edited 2 times in total.
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maddog2840

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 08:02

RoAF wrote:I've just come across this picture (or still) on the net, no explanations attached, just that it's from Vietnam. Could someone explain what's in the image?
Looks to me like a SAM just missing that F-105...


This picture (on page 17) solves the discussion about the MDS with the bombs on the rack. Not jettisoned. Just hanging on the centerline with the Thud doing about a 90-135 to the right.
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outlaw162

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 19:09

Interesting thread.

And the lower wing loading made the 4 much more maneuverable.


(quote compares F-100 to F-4)

That's incorrect. 7.33 g corner for the clean F-100 was ~50 knots lower than the corner for the clean F-4.

And at slow speed (below 300ish) the F-4 was not only no match for an F-100 in a turning fight, but had the same considerable difficulty with the A-7. :shock:
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Roscoe

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Unread post07 Aug 2012, 07:16

Just finished "Palace Cobra: A Fighter Pilot in the Vietnam Air War " by Ed Rasimus. He flew Thuds in his first tour (See his book "When Thunder Rolled: An F-105 Pilot Over North Vietnam") and went back for a second tour flying F-4E out of Korat.

Recommend both books highly.
Roscoe
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"It's time to get medieval, I'm goin' in for guns" - Dos Gringos
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southernphantom

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Unread post07 Aug 2012, 13:24

I haven't read When Thunder Rolled, but Palace Cobra was fantastic. I have to reccommend it highly as well; that book served as a lot of the technical reference for my writing (and still does for tactics/operations) until I got into the highly technical stuff out of the 1F-4C-1.
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sorrydog

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Unread post28 Jan 2014, 05:31

RoAF wrote:I've just come across this picture (or still) on the net, no explanations attached, just that it's from Vietnam. Could someone explain what's in the image?
Looks to me like a SAM just missing that F-105...

Image
I remember looking at this picture for a while a few years ago trying to figure out what kind of plane it was, but finally came across the details of the origin from Bob Smith's autobio. It was filmed by a weasel crew who had just fired a shrike. Many of the Thuds carried a 70mm camera on the belly that activated on bomb or missile release. Obviously that is the centerline MER up close in the pic. The plane hit was D model Thud flown by Capt. Bob Elliot, and quite sadly was never found. The the strike was for the Doumer bridge, and the date is Feb 14, '68.

Considering the missions that they flew, I am amazed at the amount of respect they deserve.
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ruderamronbo

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Unread post18 Feb 2014, 01:28

Shows how times, and people, change...

http://mag.newsweek.com/2013/11/08/mort ... iends.html

"Fifty years ago, they were trying to kill each other in Vietnam. Now they hang out "
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edpop

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Unread post18 Feb 2014, 07:49

Speaking of air tactics in Vietnam, I was a ground guy who was there in 1967 who really appreciated all the close air support we got from the Air Force and the Marines. Nothing like seeing an F-4 rolling in throwing Zuni's out the front and then coming back and making a second pass and dropping napalm out the back. Many guys owe their lives to these guys and their ability to put metal on the target!!
Vietnam veteran (Combat Engineer) 1967
Retired from Chrysler Engineering
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