First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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knowan

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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 03:43

Corsair1963 wrote:Yes, not uncommon to see Russian Fighters flying around armed with R-27 /AA-10 Alamo Missiles. Which, are equivalent to later models of the AIM-7 Sparrow........

:shock:


More than uncommon; every single intercept video I've looked at has the Flankers armed with R-27s.

Near as I can tell, the only R-77-1 deployment has been with Su-35s in Syria.


milosh wrote:Same company is making R-37 and R-77 seekers so R-37 is probable priority especially if you check R-27ER1 capabilities. With PESA radars there isn't some huge benefit of R-77-1 over R-27ER1. In fact I would even say R-27ER1 is probable better in terminal phase if missile speed is low (grid fins aren't efficient when speed drops below Mach 2) To me R-77 wasn't design to be excellent BVR missile (Soviets were working on R-37 and R-27ER) but to be jack of all trades (excellent low BVR range capability which grid fins provide at higher Mach numbers).


R-27ER1 doesn't sound very good according to Russian and Ukranian sources, with claims of only 93 to 100 km maximum range:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... e/r-27er1/
http://www.artem.ua/en/produktsiya/avia ... es-r-27er1

And I suspect you might be right about the R-77 design goal; the grid fins seem counterproductive for a BVR missile. Interestingly, the K-77M reportedly changes to more conventional fins, which will likely result in a missile much more competitive with the AIM-120.
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 11:55

I agree that the true Achilles heel of Russian fighters are the weapons and then avionics. R-77 and R-27 variants are mostly inferior to current versions of AMRAAM, Meteor and even the much smaller MICA and I-Derby-ER missiles. That's natural as the Russian missiles are old designs with very limited upgrades. They are basically equivalent to AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M respectively.

R-73 was a really good missile in 1980s, but nowadays even the latest variants have been taken over by a number of IR missiles. RVV-BD missile is likely powerful, but also a lot bigger than Meteor or AIM-120D which also have rather impressive range. So only the biggest fighters can use it when Meteor can be used by Gripen.

In avionics department they have some good and powerful systems, but technologically struggle in many areas. Other countries are using AESA radars in large numbers and couple of generations newer IRST systems. Sensor fusion systems are used in many newer Western aircraft also. Of course they are developing their systems, but have a long way to go before catching up to current Western capabilities there.
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vladimir

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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 21:11

hornetfinn wrote:I agree that the true Achilles heel of Russian fighters are the weapons and then avionics. R-77 and R-27 variants are mostly inferior to current versions of AMRAAM, Meteor and even the much smaller MICA and I-Derby-ER missiles. That's natural as the Russian missiles are old designs with very limited upgrades. They are basically equivalent to AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M respectively.

R-73 was a really good missile in 1980s, but nowadays even the latest variants have been taken over by a number of IR missiles. RVV-BD missile is likely powerful, but also a lot bigger than Meteor or AIM-120D which also have rather impressive range. So only the biggest fighters can use it when Meteor can be used by Gripen.

In avionics department they have some good and powerful systems, but technologically struggle in many areas. Other countries are using AESA radars in large numbers and couple of generations newer IRST systems. Sensor fusion systems are used in many newer Western aircraft also. Of course they are developing their systems, but have a long way to go before catching up to current Western capabilities there.


Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/ ... ays-a67153

India's Russian Arms Purchases Hit 'Breakthrough' $14.5Bln, Official Says

India has ordered a “breakthrough” $14.5 billion of Russian-made weapons since last year despite sanctions pressure from the United States, Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) has said.
India is the largest buyer of Russian military hardware, having signed a $5 billion deal for Russian S-400 surface to air missile systems last year.


For those who believe Russian industry can't make an airborne AESA radar:

https://www.janes.com/article/92063/rus ... aesa-radar

Russia’s Ka-52M combat helicopter to receive AESA radar

Russia's new Ka-52M combat helicopter will receive new targeting sensors instead of upgraded versions of present systems.

The new V006 Rezets (Cutter) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is being developed by the St Petersburg-based Zaslon company for the modernised helicopter. ...
The Rezets radar for the Ka-52 has a fixed 900×300 mm AESA antenna with 640 transceiver modules.


I don't like citing rubbish sites like 'National Interest', but this time I will make an exception. SOMETIMES they have decent articles (though rarely). :)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... nato-31067

This New Russian Plane Could Cause Some Serious Problems for NATO
Don't forget about the importance of AWACS.
...
With its new AESA radar, the A-100 should offer an enormous improvement in detection and tracking capability against both air and surface contacts compared to the current A-50 and A-50U. However, it is unclear how well the new system will compare to existing Western systems such as the U.S. Air Force’s E-3 Sentry, however it is very possible that the A-100’s AESA technology will give the Russian jet an edge over the American aircraft. The latest E-3G Block 40/45 use the Northrop Grumman APY- 2, which uses a passive phased array antenna to scan vertically in the S-band while it scans mechanically in the azimuth.
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boilermaker

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Unread post14 Nov 2019, 06:01

It is pretty dumb to rely on equipment that the Chinese will use against you. Russians have built in systems that prevent a Russian made missile from shooting Russian made equipment.

It would behove on India to have more systems outside Russia because I am pretty sure the Chinese know those systems well already.
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Unread post14 Nov 2019, 14:05

vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?

How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?

vladimir wrote:For those who believe Russian industry can't make an airborne AESA radar:

https://www.janes.com/article/92063/rus ... aesa-radar

Russia’s Ka-52M combat helicopter to receive AESA radar

Russia's new Ka-52M combat helicopter will receive new targeting sensors instead of upgraded versions of present systems.

The new V006 Rezets (Cutter) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is being developed by the St Petersburg-based Zaslon company for the modernised helicopter. ...
The Rezets radar for the Ka-52 has a fixed 900×300 mm AESA antenna with 640 transceiver modules.


I don't like citing rubbish sites like 'National Interest', but this time I will make an exception. SOMETIMES they have decent articles (though rarely). :)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... nato-31067

This New Russian Plane Could Cause Some Serious Problems for NATO
Don't forget about the importance of AWACS.
...
With its new AESA radar, the A-100 should offer an enormous improvement in detection and tracking capability against both air and surface contacts compared to the current A-50 and A-50U. However, it is unclear how well the new system will compare to existing Western systems such as the U.S. Air Force’s E-3 Sentry, however it is very possible that the A-100’s AESA technology will give the Russian jet an edge over the American aircraft. The latest E-3G Block 40/45 use the Northrop Grumman APY- 2, which uses a passive phased array antenna to scan vertically in the S-band while it scans mechanically in the azimuth.


We'll see when those become operational. USA has had operational airborne AESA systems for about 20 years. For AWACS there is E-7 Wedgetail which became operational in RAAF almost 10 years ago. But E-3 is still very good AWACS with enormous reach and processing power. Sure modern AESA variant would have better performance but it will be rather costly and currently there is no real need. USAF, NATO and some other countries can definitely just buy the E-7 in that case.
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knowan

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Unread post14 Nov 2019, 14:22

hornetfinn wrote:How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?


French and Israeli radar and EW systems are common on Indian Navy warships too.


hornetfinn wrote:We'll see when those become operational. USA has had operational airborne AESA systems for about 20 years. For AWACS there is E-7 Wedgetail which became operational in RAAF almost 10 years ago. But E-3 is still very good AWACS with enormous reach and processing power. Sure modern AESA variant would have better performance but it will be rather costly and currently there is no real need. USAF, NATO and some other countries can definitely just buy the E-7 in that case.


Don't forget the E-2D; the AN/APY-9 is AESA.
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Unread post14 Nov 2019, 17:17

knowan wrote:Don't forget the E-2D; the AN/APY-9 is AESA.


It doesn't use normal AESA modules but simple antennas like NEBO SVU radar so you can't count it as something comparable to E-7, KJ-2000, A-50EI (Indian A-50 with Israel AESA radar) or A-100.
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boilermaker

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Unread post15 Nov 2019, 09:42

hornetfinn wrote:
vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?

How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?

vladimir wrote:For those who believe Russian industry can't make an airborne AESA radar:

https://www.janes.com/article/92063/rus ... aesa-radar

Russia’s Ka-52M combat helicopter to receive AESA radar

Russia's new Ka-52M combat helicopter will receive new targeting sensors instead of upgraded versions of present systems.

The new V006 Rezets (Cutter) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is being developed by the St Petersburg-based Zaslon company for the modernised helicopter. ...
The Rezets radar for the Ka-52 has a fixed 900×300 mm AESA antenna with 640 transceiver modules.


I don't like citing rubbish sites like 'National Interest', but this time I will make an exception. SOMETIMES they have decent articles (though rarely). :)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... nato-31067

This New Russian Plane Could Cause Some Serious Problems for NATO
Don't forget about the importance of AWACS.
...
With its new AESA radar, the A-100 should offer an enormous improvement in detection and tracking capability against both air and surface contacts compared to the current A-50 and A-50U. However, it is unclear how well the new system will compare to existing Western systems such as the U.S. Air Force’s E-3 Sentry, however it is very possible that the A-100’s AESA technology will give the Russian jet an edge over the American aircraft. The latest E-3G Block 40/45 use the Northrop Grumman APY- 2, which uses a passive phased array antenna to scan vertically in the S-band while it scans mechanically in the azimuth.


We'll see when those become operational. USA has had operational airborne AESA systems for about 20 years. For AWACS there is E-7 Wedgetail which became operational in RAAF almost 10 years ago. But E-3 is still very good AWACS with enormous reach and processing power. Sure modern AESA variant would have better performance but it will be rather costly and currently there is no real need. USAF, NATO and some other countries can definitely just buy the E-7 in that case.


I actually heard that systems like AWACS and JSTARS would be phased out for space based systems doing the same thing along with drones.
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Unread post15 Nov 2019, 12:22

boilermaker wrote:I actually heard that systems like AWACS and JSTARS would be phased out for space based systems doing the same thing along with drones.


I doubt that space based systems will replace those capabilties. IMO, it's just too problematic and expensive to do that. Now space based systems and drones might well be used by AWACS/JSTARS. It might well be that the huge radar array in those aircraft is replaced or at least supported by distributed system with multiple smaller radars and other sensors in drones and space systems. Main task for those aircraft is battlefield management and C&C and the sensors could well be placed in other systems. I see very real possibility of having a swarm of large drones with AESA radar, ESM/EW systems and a very long range EO/IR sensor for a target ID for example. Of course nothing (except money) stops having those drones and space systems and also huge AESA radar on the AWACS/JSTARS aircraft.
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Unread post15 Nov 2019, 15:10

hornetfinn wrote:Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?



I assume it's not the easy, to integrate western missiles in to a russian system.
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Unread post15 Nov 2019, 19:10

Indian Flankers will have most intersting AAM capability as it look like in near future.

R-27ER1, R-77 (probable new version), domestic Astra and very likely Derby-ER.

We don't need to exclude R-37 becuase integration for Flanker in on the way. Carrying two between engines will not be big penality for Su-30MKI and with engine upgrade four R-37 wouldn't be problem either in combination with other AAMs. But R-37 MKI would need new radar to achieve full capability.
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Unread post15 Nov 2019, 23:46

milosh wrote:Indian Flankers will have most intersting AAM capability as it look like in near future.

R-27ER1, R-77 (probable new version), domestic Astra and very likely Derby-ER.

We don't need to exclude R-37 becuase integration for Flanker in on the way. Carrying two between engines will not be big penality for Su-30MKI and with engine upgrade four R-37 wouldn't be problem either in combination with other AAMs. But R-37 MKI would need new radar to achieve full capability.

Wouldn't you mount them under the intakes? Cutting airflow under the plane would be fine if you never intended to drop them. I thought the MiG-31 dropped them down into the airflow for deployment off a rail. I'd think deployment from the center-line position(s) - between engine pods and not into clean airflow - would be a potential hazard in this case.
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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 01:05

hornetfinn wrote:
vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?


India is NOT seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77 and SRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois. Those are speculations and fake news, nothing more. No contract was signed for I-Derby-ER or ASRAAM, but the fact is that they are ordering another batch of 1000 R-77 and R-73 missiles, the contract is already signed.

On the contrary, Russian-built R-73s are carried by their French-built Mirage-2000s. Sukhois and MiGs don’t carry non-Russian missiles.

BrahMos missiles will soon be carried by Sukhois and Indian-built Astra air-to-air missiles are basically Russian technology and know-how.

hornetfinn wrote:How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?


So what?

It doesn't prove anything.

Don't forget that the majority of avionics in Indian Su-30MKI, MiG-29K and MiG-29UGP is Russian-made and that they have Russian-made N-011M Bars and Zhuk-ME radars. Back in the 2000s the Indians could choose some other radar, but they didn't.
Indian Mirage-2000 has Israeli-made HMD and Russian-made R-73 missiles... so if a French-made aircraft has Russian-made avionics, does it mean that French avionics is 'backward' when compared to Russian/Israeli avionics? :)
As far as I know, Israeli F-16I has a lot of non-US-made avionics: does it mean that US avionics is 'backward' when compared to Israeli avionics? :)

BTW, they are also negotiating with Russia for avionics upgrade for Su-30MKI. The first ones where delivered in 2004 and their avionics is now a little bit obsolete.
https://www.janes.com/article/91947/iaf ... h-fighters
IAF to upgrade its Su-30MKI fleet and acquire more such fighters

The Indian Air Force (IAF) aims to upgrade its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters by equipping them with advanced avionics, radar, and weapon systems.
“We will upgrade the Su-30MKIs with [modern] radar and weapon capabilities and also tackle their obsolescence management and electronic warfare capabilities,” said Air Chief Marshal R K S Bhadauria during a 4 October press conference, but did not elaborate.


They could choose missiles and avionics from some other country for their Su-30MKIs, but they didn't.
Overall, Russian military-defense industry is highly-developed, they are the 2nd largest arms exporter in the world and their education in engineering, technical, natural sciences (math & physics) is quite good.
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knowan

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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 12:23

vladimir wrote:India is NOT seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77 and SRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois. Those are speculations and fake news, nothing more.


Ah, the 'I don't like that, I'm gonna dismiss it as fake news!' defence, no evidence required!
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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 12:33

madrat wrote:Wouldn't you mount them under the intakes? Cutting airflow under the plane would be fine if you never intended to drop them. I thought the MiG-31 dropped them down into the airflow for deployment off a rail. I'd think deployment from the center-line position(s) - between engine pods and not into clean airflow - would be a potential hazard in this case.


One big AA missile is inteneded to be carried in tunnel:
http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about/pr ... et_eng.pdf

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