SU-57: On hold for a decade

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botsing

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Unread post27 Jul 2018, 19:54

XanderCrews wrote:
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

Can't we just have this cobra kid booted?

He is dragging the level of conversion down to some kindergarten level of logic ("my dad is stronger than your dad") and it had its run now, it's no longer fun to watch this trainwreck.

It's hurting to see people invest time and effort into explaining important details, after which this cobra monkey simply puts another turd on it...
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XanderCrews

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Unread post27 Jul 2018, 20:59

botsing wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

Can't we just have this cobra kid booted?

He is dragging the level of conversion down to some kindergarten level of logic ("my dad is stronger than your dad") and it had its run now, it's no longer fun to watch this trainwreck.

It's hurting to see people invest time and effort into explaining important details, after which this cobra monkey simply puts another turd on it...



I agree 100 percent. I think its a matter of reporting him a few times before he can be booted. This is slowman level...
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cobra321

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Unread post28 Jul 2018, 15:26

botsing wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

Can't we just have this cobra kid booted?

He is dragging the level of conversion down to some kindergarten level of logic ("my dad is stronger than your dad") and it had its run now, it's no longer fun to watch this trainwreck.

It's hurting to see people invest time and effort into explaining important details, after which this cobra monkey simply puts another turd on it...


There's kindergarten level logic going on with the coverage of the su 57 alright, from Business Insider. Mostly from one author who is spreading libelous nonsense.

This has to be the first time that a jet is being heralded as canceled in the very same week that it is going into production. :roll:
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 06:14

lrrpf52 wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
There's kindergarten level logic going on with the coverage of the su 57 alright, from Business Insider. Mostly from one author who is spreading libelous nonsense.

This has to be the first time that a jet is being heralded as canceled in the very same week that it is going into production. :roll:

You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get you-fighter-program-isnt-dead-at-least-not-yet



.



You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get your memo


The Russian defense ministry has ordered 12 new production Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighters and confirmed next year as the target date for entry-into-service.

Inspecting Sukhoi’s KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk-upon-Amur in late June, deputy minister Aleksei Krivoruchko told journalists that the Su-57 prototypes had “demonstrated full compliance to the customer’s specification” during flight trials and the overseas deployment.

In early 2019, the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center (PSC) will receive two new production Su-57 aircraft. They will be tested by experienced test pilots, then commanders, pilots and technical personnel for winged vehicles will be trained in the center. Also, the "Aircraft Bible" will be created, which describes all the nuances of his work. According to military experts, the fact of the transfer of fighters to the air center of VKS indicates the imminent adoption of the first Russian fighter of the fifth generation for armament.


There is a two-stage system for adopting new aircraft in the air defense system. First serial copies are received by the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense (GLITS), which is located in the city of Akhtubinsk in the Astrakhan Region. This stage will be completed before the end of this year. After that, the Su-57 will be transferred to the Lipetsk Air Center.

In the 4th Combat Training Center, the Su-57's combat operation will actually begin, the former commander of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army, Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko told Izvestia.

You just took quotes from Borisov and then added some commentary from a War Is Boring hit piece and called it an Interfax article.

Then there's the Pierre Sprey of Russia who called it an expensive toy. He's got nothing on Sprey though. Sprey is the king of anti 5th gen.

are obsolete engines


It was known since 2010 that it was a 2 phase engine program.
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 11:39

It might be a difficult context to grasp for some, but such a limited production is effectively the final death blow for the program.

Combine such limited production with the known program problems, Russian Ministry of Defense saying larger production numbers are delayed for many years and India pulling out of the program, claims of the demise of the Su-57 are a rational claime.

If the F-35 production was cut to just 12 planes at the same time the US DoD was saying that further production would be delayed 7+ years at the same time the only export customer nations (whose funding and export sales were being relied upon to make the program financially viable) cancelled their participation, it would be fair to say the F-35 program was dead.

But of course, that requires being able to critically analyse the topic in an unbiased way,, something fanboys are not known for being capable of doing, as they have attached their self-worth to the Su-57.
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 15:38

Cobra321, you are still not getting it...

The big disconnect is between your CLAIMS and Russia's ACTIONS. You're claiming that everything is A OK, and proceeding to plan. The Russians realize that in its current rendition, the SU-57 isn't all that much more capable than the SU-35. They've dramatically curtailed production to just 12 examples, allegedly being operational/combat capable at some point and "in service".

They're also very clear on the SU-57 being more for export. Now tell me, why would a country like Russia procure such a limited number of these super fighters for itself, and focus mainly on selling them abroad? The exact opposite situation is seen with the F-22. The US passed a law saying that the F-22 can NOT be exported, given its so head and shoulders better than anything flying. So if the SU-57 is really such a breakthrough, why wouldn't they keep it all to themselves?

In that respect, it mirrors their Mig-35 situation. The Russians are buying small numbers and hoping that foreign operators will see this, then be enticed to order Mig-35's. How's that formula working for ya?

Until such time as you have a fully functional airframe with stage 2 engines, avionics etc. you have.... an experiment. It's an expensive experiment, and by the time it's ready for prime time upgraded F-22's and 35's will be flying, with PCA right behind them. In the case of the F-35, there will be thousands of them. Literally thousands, flying from almost every corner of the globe.

Actions, not words tell the SU-57's story..
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 16:48

My feeling is that Soviets faltered in industry way before the fall of the wall. The last fighter from Soviet times that proliferated widely was the MiG-21, a design virtually began in the 50's. They had a lot of Sukhoi single-engine fighter sales, too. But MiG-29 proliferation was largely mythical. The Soviets were surprised by the poor results of their equipment, but the West always seemed to be a step ahead. (Even though they played up the threat publicly.)
Image
If China's J-10 and JF-17 had been Soviet-Russia in origin, perhaps they would have enjoyed more exports. Focus should have been around around HMS + R73 and affordability. Basically stuck with pragmatic choices and less wishful thinking.

By the time they went for stealth there could have been a more affordable option on the table.
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 16:55

cobra321 wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
There's kindergarten level logic going on with the coverage of the su 57 alright, from Business Insider. Mostly from one author who is spreading libelous nonsense.

This has to be the first time that a jet is being heralded as canceled in the very same week that it is going into production. :roll:

You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get you-fighter-program-isnt-dead-at-least-not-yet



.



You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get your memo


The Russian defense ministry has ordered 12 new production Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighters and confirmed next year as the target date for entry-into-service.

Inspecting Sukhoi’s KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk-upon-Amur in late June, deputy minister Aleksei Krivoruchko told journalists that the Su-57 prototypes had “demonstrated full compliance to the customer’s specification” during flight trials and the overseas deployment.

In early 2019, the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center (PSC) will receive two new production Su-57 aircraft. They will be tested by experienced test pilots, then commanders, pilots and technical personnel for winged vehicles will be trained in the center. Also, the "Aircraft Bible" will be created, which describes all the nuances of his work. According to military experts, the fact of the transfer of fighters to the air center of VKS indicates the imminent adoption of the first Russian fighter of the fifth generation for armament.


There is a two-stage system for adopting new aircraft in the air defense system. First serial copies are received by the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense (GLITS), which is located in the city of Akhtubinsk in the Astrakhan Region. This stage will be completed before the end of this year. After that, the Su-57 will be transferred to the Lipetsk Air Center.

In the 4th Combat Training Center, the Su-57's combat operation will actually begin, the former commander of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army, Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko told Izvestia.

You just took quotes from Borisov and then added some commentary from a War Is Boring hit piece and called it an Interfax article.

Then there's the Pierre Sprey of Russia who called it an expensive toy. He's got nothing on Sprey though. Sprey is the king of anti 5th gen.

are obsolete engines


It was known since 2010 that it was a 2 phase engine program.


It is pretty obvious that the SU 57 is not being cancelled outright......but it is also obvious that the SU 57 will only be built in relatively small numbers.....a precious silver bullet force.....not the raging success story especially in comparison to earlier Russian propaganda.

lrrpf52’s quote is truly from Interfax Russia.....tough! Russian Pierre Sprey or not......the Russian journalist did raise some good and glaring points/issues about the SU 57 program. Credit to the Russian vice ministers (Borisov et al) who finally acknowledged these significant problems of the SU 57 program and moved on with a somewhat more realistic plan......like a mature adult. You see Cobra321.....it’s very simple......in order to solve a problem....you must acknowledge the problem PERIOD. And there are major problems with the SU 57 program which are not going to be solved with just la la propaganda. It’s not business as usual and it is definitely not everything is hunky Dory.

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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 17:04

madrat wrote:Image

What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 17:17

Looks like Fulcrum and a Falcon hooked up.
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botsing

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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 17:29

juretrn wrote:
madrat wrote:Image

What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

Mikoyan Project 33.
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 18:14

madrat wrote:Image

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Looks like Fulcrum and a Falcon hooked up.

Image
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 18:48

mixelflick wrote:Cobra321, you are still not getting it...

The big disconnect is between your CLAIMS and Russia's ACTIONS. You're claiming that everything is A OK, and proceeding to plan. The Russians realize that in its current rendition, the SU-57 isn't all that much more capable than the SU-35. They've dramatically curtailed production to just 12 examples, allegedly being operational/combat capable at some point and "in service".

They're also very clear on the SU-57 being more for export. Now tell me, why would a country like Russia procure such a limited number of these super fighters for itself, and focus mainly on selling them abroad? The exact opposite situation is seen with the F-22. The US passed a law saying that the F-22 can NOT be exported, given its so head and shoulders better than anything flying. So if the SU-57 is really such a breakthrough, why wouldn't they keep it all to themselves?

In that respect, it mirrors their Mig-35 situation. The Russians are buying small numbers and hoping that foreign operators will see this, then be enticed to order Mig-35's. How's that formula working for ya?

Until such time as you have a fully functional airframe with stage 2 engines, avionics etc. you have.... an experiment. It's an expensive experiment, and by the time it's ready for prime time upgraded F-22's and 35's will be flying, with PCA right behind them. In the case of the F-35, there will be thousands of them. Literally thousands, flying from almost every corner of the globe.

Actions, not words tell the SU-57's story..


Are you surmising that development of the su 57 is going to stop ? We will cease to get updates from the program ? No more new pictures of the jet ? The new engine is going to be mothballed ?

And if we do continue to get updates and evidence shows that development of the su 57 is continuing , what do you think is going on ?

In that respect, it mirrors their Mig-35 situation. The Russians are buying small numbers and hoping that foreign operators will see this, then be enticed to order Mig-35's. How's that formula working for ya?


Just another one of those narratives. Theres just as many countries with Mig 29's in service as F-16's yet the Mig 29 and 35 is dead. Just b/c ppl say it is
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 20:13

juretrn wrote:What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

What if.... the Soviets made a reliable engine :mrgreen:
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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 20:42

SpudmanWP wrote:
juretrn wrote:What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

What if.... the Soviets made a reliable engine :mrgreen:

Hey now... 400 hour engine life is fine! :mrgreen:
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