F-15EX

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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charlielima223

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Unread post06 Jul 2022, 00:24

aaam wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
f119doctor wrote:The last F-15C has departed Nellis AFB
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... e=timeline

With no F-15C/D at Nellis, that means no future F-15 Fight Weapons School classes for F-15 Air to Air mission. Wasn’t F-15EX supposed to recapitalize the F-15C/D fleet?


Yes, although even the original plans to buy 144..... wouldn't get them there (on a 1:1 replacement basis). Now, the buy is supposedly down to just 80 jets. Maybe to make a fleet of 187 Raptors look gigantic, LOL.


Well, regarding the fleet of 186 Raptors (one got written off as impractical to repair), what USAF wanted to do in addition to cutting the F-15EX buy was to retire the 33 Block 20s which it says would be too costly to bring up to Block 30/35+. The savings would go to help fund NGAD. Congress weighed in and said they couldn't be retired, and just upgrade them anyway, no guidance on where the USAF estimated $1 billion for the upgrades will come from. Additionally, USAF wants to start retiring the F-22 fleet starting in 2030 due to obsolescence and saying the F-22 can't go where USAF wants to go: greater stealth, which means agility isn't as important (build agility into the missile). Congress said no to that as well. Again, not exactly sure where the money will come from.

Will be instructive to see what's in the final National Defense Authorization Act


Gahd I hate how people use the word "obsolete". Exactly how would the F-22 be obsolete in 2030 when the F-22 is still the most capable air-to-air 5th gen platform out there. With current and intended upgrades how would the F-22 be obsolete in the next 8 years? Did our adversaries suddenly leap frog ahead of us in 5th gen capability?
I get it that the USAF wants to start retiring the F-22 when the NGAD comes on line but we dont know when that will be or what it looks like. All we have to go on is just small little snippets from powerpoints and claims. Im willing to take their words and claims with some weight of value but until they role the thing out from a hanger, the F-22 is still the best air-to-air platform we have. I get that we shouldnt be complacent. Lets not call the best air-to-air machine we have as "obsolete" until we get the NGAD up to some kind of operational capacity.


Its a shame the F-15C is leaving Nellis. I think the EX would have been a nice follow on/evolution to the C-Eagle if they made a single seat version to it. I always suspected that the EX was more destined to be a follow on to the Mudhen, though is a planned buy of 80 now... doesnt look like it would be much force the current force of 219 F-15Es.
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allesmorobranna

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Unread post08 Jul 2022, 08:13

charlielima223 wrote:
Gahd I hate how people use the word "obsolete". Exactly how would the F-22 be obsolete in 2030 when the F-22 is still the most capable air-to-air 5th gen platform out there. With current and intended upgrades how would the F-22 be obsolete in the next 8 years? Did our adversaries suddenly leap frog ahead of us in 5th gen capability?
I get it that the USAF wants to start retiring the F-22 when the NGAD comes on line but we dont know when that will be or what it looks like. All we have to go on is just small little snippets from powerpoints and claims. Im willing to take their words and claims with some weight of value but until they role the thing out from a hanger, the F-22 is still the best air-to-air platform we have. I get that we shouldnt be complacent. Lets not call the best air-to-air machine we have as "obsolete" until we get the NGAD up to some kind of operational capacity.


Its a shame the F-15C is leaving Nellis. I think the EX would have been a nice follow on/evolution to the C-Eagle if they made a single seat version to it. I always suspected that the EX was more destined to be a follow on to the Mudhen, though is a planned buy of 80 now... doesnt look like it would be much force the current force of 219 F-15Es.


I think, the obsolence of the F-22 fleet is not from the piloting/fighting, but from operational and maintenance standpoint.
The hardware, the airframe, the performance and the overall ideology would be up to date even after 2030, but the avionics could be really outdated.
This is not the good old 70's 4th gen architecture anymore, where you had a so-called "analog" avionics architecture, solid state -based computing systems in the electronics compartment and by an upgrade program you just added a new box and the single MFD in the cockpit and there was a cost-effective upgrade.
At the late 90's - early 2000's, everthing was about the new digitalized, open architecture era, where every upgrade promised to be an easy thing. Well, as I see, the avionics (AESA radar, sensor-fusion, EW, dtat processing, etc) from this era (F-22, F-16E/F block 60, early EF Typhoons, earyl batch of Rafales and so on) all are suffering because of the short lifecycle of the avionics architecture. So the upgrade should be cost-effective, but somehow, it is not.

From another prospective: the latest development processes takes 20-25 years average, where the hardware is ready in the first 5-10 years (this is not really longer than in the 70's), while the avionics development is responsible for the rest and especially for the cost overdue. And also because of that, the current projects are suffering from an anomaly: when you reach the first batck low production rate of manufacturing, it takes so much time, your original avionics is going to be obsolete.
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zhangmdev

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Unread post08 Jul 2022, 09:21

This is not an "anomaly", but a certainty. It is much easier to shrink electronic circuits to gain more computing power. The advance on the hardware side is much harder and slower. The power generation and cooling capacity required to run the avionics does not come out of thin air like magic. The promise of the digitalized, data-driven, open architecture inevitably leads to extraordinarily bloated softwares. Testing such a complicated system to some level of satisfaction is going to be take a long time. It is not some consumer electronics can be refreshed every year and released full of bugs.
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Unread post08 Jul 2022, 11:31

Or the inherent design of the stealth skin makes maintenance of, and access to, internal components very labor intensive on par with century-level fighters.
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Unread post09 Jul 2022, 23:56

Would corrosion be an issue? AK, VA,HA,FL are all close to the ocean.
Saying obsolete implies we have something better, while saying corrosion implies poor maintenance.
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Unread post10 Jul 2022, 02:56

daswp wrote:
Saying obsolete implies we have something better

F-22 pilots have said that the kinematic qualities of the F-22 are it's least impressive features in terms of what it brings to the battlefield, and they are also the only ones the F-35 doesn't do better.
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wrightwing

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Unread post10 Jul 2022, 05:35

allesmorobranna wrote:



I think, the obsolence of the F-22 fleet is not from the piloting/fighting, but from operational and maintenance standpoint.
The hardware, the airframe, the performance and the overall ideology would be up to date even after 2030, but the avionics could be really outdated.
This is not the good old 70's 4th gen architecture anymore, where you had a so-called "analog" avionics architecture, solid state -based computing systems in the electronics compartment and by an upgrade program you just added a new box and the single MFD in the cockpit and there was a cost-effective upgrade.
At the late 90's - early 2000's, everthing was about the new digitalized, open architecture era, where every upgrade promised to be an easy thing. Well, as I see, the avionics (AESA radar, sensor-fusion, EW, dtat processing, etc) from this era (F-22, F-16E/F block 60, early EF Typhoons, earyl batch of Rafales and so on) all are suffering because of the short lifecycle of the avionics architecture. So the upgrade should be cost-effective, but somehow, it is not.

From another prospective: the latest development processes takes 20-25 years average, where the hardware is ready in the first 5-10 years (this is not really longer than in the 70's), while the avionics development is responsible for the rest and especially for the cost overdue. And also because of that, the current projects are suffering from an anomaly: when you reach the first batck low production rate of manufacturing, it takes so much time, your original avionics is going to be obsolete.

By 2030, the F-22 fleet is going to have been upgraded with new open architecture avionics, new sensors, new cockpit displays, new helmet displays, etc...., so no, it's not going to be obsolete by any standard.
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Unread post29 Jul 2022, 08:46

The EIS site for the F-15EX/F-35A beddown at existing F-15C/D sites has a few nuggets.

https://www.angf15ex-f35a-eis.com/faqs/

"It is not economically feasible to retain the F-15C/D aircraft beyond fiscal year 2026, and the Department of the Air Force has already begun to retire aircraft that have reached the end of their serviceability.

How many aircraft would be part of the beddown: Each of the two F-15EX beddowns would include one squadron of 21 aircraft with three back-ups. The F-35A beddown would include one squadron of 21 aircraft and two back-ups. These aircraft are being acquired in support of the Air National Guard mission and would replace the legacy fighter F-15C/D aircraft at the selected installations, with the exception of Naval Air Station Lemoore, which does not currently have F-15C/D aircraft to replace.

When would the aircraft arrive: F-35A aircraft would be expected to begin arriving at the selected installations in 2026; F-15EX aircraft would begin arriving in 2027-28.

What would happen to the existing aircraft: The F-15C/Ds would be retired from service due to the age of the aircraft."


Looks like the F-15C/Ds won't go past FY26.

Check out also the "official" S400 detection range vs F-15EX & F-35A
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Unread post29 Jul 2022, 11:50

weasel1962 wrote:
Check out also the "official" S400 detection range vs F-15EX & F-35A

Those are both less than I was was modeling. I guess I model the radar as more powerful than the "official"?
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chucky2

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Unread post05 Aug 2022, 22:55

EPAWSS must be one hell of a suite to let the F-15E/EX operate close enough to be relevant, that is a crazy disparity in detection range... :shock:
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Unread post05 Aug 2022, 23:01

The EX can shoot an AMRAAM further than an APG-77(v1) F-22? What? Is this some kind of play on words/meaning where it can shoot some kind of non-A/A ordnance that has a further range than AMRAAMs and since and F-22 or -35 can't carry that, it's the 'furthest shooting'? Because the way they - specifically - worded this it sounds like they're saying an EX can out stick a Raptor???

"“One of the main takeaways from these live fire shots is that the jet can clearly function as a long-range, standoff weapons system,” said Capt. Max Denbin, the team’s lead test engineer. “The F-15EX can shoot from a significantly increased range – farther than any other fighter in the U.S. Air Force arsenal – and provides the unique capability of holding 12 AMRAAMs or other large ordinance.”"

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3114311/afotec-detachment-6-participates-in-first-f-15ex-live-fire-missile-shots/
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Unread post06 Aug 2022, 03:43

chucky2 wrote:The EX can shoot an AMRAAM further than an APG-77(v1) F-22? What? Is this some kind of play on words/meaning where it can shoot some kind of non-A/A ordnance that has a further range than AMRAAMs and since and F-22 or -35 can't carry that, it's the 'furthest shooting'? Because the way they - specifically - worded this it sounds like they're saying an EX can out stick a Raptor???

"“One of the main takeaways from these live fire shots is that the jet can clearly function as a long-range, standoff weapons system,” said Capt. Max Denbin, the team’s lead test engineer. “The F-15EX can shoot from a significantly increased range – farther than any other fighter in the U.S. Air Force arsenal – and provides the unique capability of holding 12 AMRAAMs or other large ordinance.”"

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3114311/afotec-detachment-6-participates-in-first-f-15ex-live-fire-missile-shots/


Are you really surprised? The AN/APG-77 was a 1970s/80s "brick" style AESA radar. The AN/APG-82 has 30 years of R&D while being a new tile based ASEA. I have read that both of these radars both have about 1500 emitters, I would hope after all these years the APG-82 would have a drastically more sensitive receiver functionality.
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Unread post06 Aug 2022, 04:16

chucky2 wrote:The EX can shoot an AMRAAM further than an APG-77(v1) F-22? What? Is this some kind of play on words/meaning where it can shoot some kind of non-A/A ordnance that has a further range than AMRAAMs and since and F-22 or -35 can't carry that, it's the 'furthest shooting'? Because the way they - specifically - worded this it sounds like they're saying an EX can out stick a Raptor???

"“One of the main takeaways from these live fire shots is that the jet can clearly function as a long-range, standoff weapons system,” said Capt. Max Denbin, the team’s lead test engineer. “The F-15EX can shoot from a significantly increased range – farther than any other fighter in the U.S. Air Force arsenal – and provides the unique capability of holding 12 AMRAAMs or other large ordinance.”"

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3114311/afotec-detachment-6-participates-in-first-f-15ex-live-fire-missile-shots/


I'd take that with a grain of salt, as the conditions weren't given. The AIM-120D has the same kinematics regardless of the platform, if the other conditions are the same (i.e. launch speed, launch altitude, attitude towards target.)
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Unread post07 Aug 2022, 12:41

h-bomb wrote:Are you really surprised? The AN/APG-77 was a 1970s/80s "brick" style AESA radar. The AN/APG-82 has 30 years of R&D while being a new tile based ASEA. I have read that both of these radars both have about 1500 emitters, I would hope after all these years the APG-82 would have a drastically more sensitive receiver functionality.


You might want to check your dates and timelines there buddy. If anything F-22 is based on mid 90s to early 2000 tech. Remember the first F-22 EMD version came out in 1997 and the aircraft reached the service in 2005.
Not knocking on the EX's radar but I've been told by others here that the APG-82 isnt something new yet rather a combination of proven technologies. It has the backend of the APG-79 with the face of the APG-63v3.
In the end both radars are very capable in their own right.

wrightwing is correct. Take this claim with a grain of salt. If they said the EX has more reach then a Viper or Hornet, I am more inclined to believe that. To say it has more reach on Raptor, Grey Eagle, or Lightning... tell me alittle about the conditions.
Last edited by charlielima223 on 07 Aug 2022, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post07 Aug 2022, 14:13

In term of aperture, APG-82 has bigger aperture than APG-77, APG-81, APG-79 and APG-80. It also come out much later. So logically, it should have longer range. Of course, that doesn't mean F-15EX can attack stealth aircraft before it get attacked. Since F-15 RCS is pretty huge so it will be detected from very long range. However, logically, let say if F-22 can detect a Rafale from 200 km by APG-77 then logically F-15EX will detect that same Rafale from distance even greater than 200 km.
Furthermore, since F-15 top speed is greater than all other aircraft in USAF. If you give it a very big target, like an AWACS or Mig-31 and give the F-15 the time to accelerate to top speed. Then it would come at no surprise that F-15 will be able to attack from much greater distance compared to other USAF fighters.
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