SU-75 Checkmate

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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milosh

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 13:18

Corsair1963 wrote:I have my doubts the Su-75 Checkmate will ever see the light of day. Nonetheless, I don't see the Gulf States as a market for the type. Because they can afford the much more capable F-35 and/or the KF-21.

So, why would they even consider the Checkmate???


Honestly, I think South America or poorer countries in the Russian orbit as more likely customers for the Checkmate. Even then it would have to compete with the Chinese with the former countries!


You don't consider Iran Gulf state?

Also Turkey would probable also buy it if US ban F-16V sell. Btw I think Turkey need to think about Su-75 hard becuase it would fit them much better then Su-35.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 23:28

milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I have my doubts the Su-75 Checkmate will ever see the light of day. Nonetheless, I don't see the Gulf States as a market for the type. Because they can afford the much more capable F-35 and/or the KF-21.

So, why would they even consider the Checkmate???


Honestly, I think South America or poorer countries in the Russian orbit as more likely customers for the Checkmate. Even then it would have to compete with the Chinese with the former countries!


You don't consider Iran Gulf state?

Also Turkey would probable also buy it if US ban F-16V sell. Btw I think Turkey need to think about Su-75 hard becuase it would fit them much better then Su-35.


Most refer to the Gulf States as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain, and Oman. Besides Iran has no money to fund the Checkmate...

Map-countries-Gulf-Cooperation-Council.jpg



As for Turkey she has her own program!(TFX) Plus, for some reason that failed, I am sure she would look to South Korea (KF-21) before Russia. (Checkmate)


IMHO
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milosh

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Unread post12 Jan 2022, 18:39

Iran would be classic buyer not some partner in program. Funding of Su-75 need to come from Russia. 2023 isn't far we will see what would be with first flight that would be good indication of things to come.

Turkey do have its own program but do you really think they can pull it without help from outside? And only real help they can expect for Russia:
https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... ighter-jet
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Corsair1963

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Unread post13 Jan 2022, 00:11

milosh wrote:Iran would be classic buyer not some partner in program. Funding of Su-75 need to come from Russia. 2023 isn't far we will see what would be with first flight that would be good indication of things to come.

Turkey do have its own program but do you really think they can pull it without help from outside? And only real help they can expect for Russia:
https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... ighter-jet


Why wouldn't Iran want to be a partner with the Su-75 Checkmate? Aren't they trying to develop their own Defense Industry? Plus, not like they have a lot of potential partners for such programs in the first place......


As for Turkey they likely want and need a partner for their TFX Fighter Program. Yet, I seriously doubt they would want Russia as a partner.........
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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 19:37

Iran probably won't bite for any number of reasons...

1.) Wants to develop an indigenous only fighter/industry
2.) Never liked Russian fighters. They had the opportunity to buy plenty more Mig-29's. They balked, reportedly after how inferior they found it to be vs. the F-14
3.) Even buying up-rated Flankers at this point would see it obsolete for most of its lifespan
4.) Buying the SU-57 is a possibility, but the cost makes it unlikely
5.) It's likely the SU-75 will be considerably inferior to the F-35, even in its most capable rendition
6.) Chinese exports (J-31?) will likely be far more capable and cheaper, given bigger production runs


The biggest problem? Timing. The SU-75 might have worked if it first flew 10 years ago. As it stands, it'll be 15 to 20 years late to the game, even if they meet their very aggressive (unrealistic, IMO) timeline.
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milosh

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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 21:28

Iran don't have tech to make modern domestic fighter, in fact they only modded F-5 and call it new fighter, they didn't even bother to do some radical changes on F-5.

So while they would love domestic fighter it is even more unrealistic then what Turkey is doing.

And what is strange with MiG-29 been worse then F-14? Absolutely nothing. In fact any fighter until recently for Iranians is step back. F-14 is armed with AIM-54 and Iranians showed it can be use against fighters.

Only now with Flanker + R-37 they have adequate replacement for F-14 + AIM-54.

Su-75 fit excellent in what Iran want, it too can carry R-37 and cost to operate less then Su-30/35. Also price tag is smaller then Flanker with similar tech.

In fact with Su-75, Iran would have better AF then other Gulf states AFs, and for lot less (Rafale and espeacilly Typhoon deals were quite expensive)

J-31 is far from export model because domestic order will be big and it wouldn't cost low, it is two engine design with two advanced engines which aren't in production and will be used on J-31. Su-75 is single engine design with engine which is already in mass production and will be used in most of Flankers around the world.
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falcon.16

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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 23:15

milosh wrote:Iran don't have tech to make modern domestic fighter, in fact they only modded F-5 and call it new fighter, they didn't even bother to do some radical changes on F-5.

So while they would love domestic fighter it is even more unrealistic then what Turkey is doing.

And what is strange with MiG-29 been worse then F-14? Absolutely nothing. In fact any fighter until recently for Iranians is step back. F-14 is armed with AIM-54 and Iranians showed it can be use against fighters.

Only now with Flanker + R-37 they have adequate replacement for F-14 + AIM-54.

Su-75 fit excellent in what Iran want, it too can carry R-37 and cost to operate less then Su-30/35. Also price tag is smaller then Flanker with similar tech.

In fact with Su-75, Iran would have better AF then other Gulf states AFs, and for lot less (Rafale and espeacilly Typhoon deals were quite expensive)

J-31 is far from export model because domestic order will be big and it wouldn't cost low, it is two engine design with two advanced engines which aren't in production and will be used on J-31. Su-75 is single engine design with engine which is already in mass production and will be used in most of Flankers around the world.


If it cost less operate than Su-35, then Su-75 is not stealth or not more than a clean superhornet.
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milosh

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Unread post15 Jan 2022, 08:00

falcon.16 wrote:If it cost less operate than Su-35, then Su-75 is not stealth or not more than a clean superhornet.


Probable.

Su-75 is all about price, so I doubt they will offered RAM at lowest price. Of course you can get it but then price is higher.

On other hand design is stealth so lack of RAM doesn't mean huge RCS. Of course it wouldn't be near F-35 or J-31/35 level but still way better then competitor on market (JF-17 and upgraded second hand F-16).

To me Su-75 is what Falcon 21 could be.
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mixelflick

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Unread post15 Jan 2022, 15:56

I just don't get what the SU-75 wants to be. It's as if the aircraft has bi-polar disorder.

On the one hand its all about price. But buying it at rock bottom pricing doesn't sound like it gets you anywhere near 5th gen capability. OTOH, if you spend more you'll get.... something better. How much better remains to be seen. Better than competing 4th gen designs? One would hope. Better than 5th gen F-35's of which there are now almost 750 flying? Not likely. And therein lies the rub IMO..

You're getting something much closer to a 4th gen bird vs. 5th. Whether that's "enough" for most countries I suppose we'll see. I think Russia itself will have a hard time accepting it into its ranks, but it may have no choice. In another 10 years their oldest aircraft will need replacing, and for the first time they may be in a position where "something is better than nothing".

Time will tell..
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Unread post17 Jan 2022, 00:44

mixelflick wrote:I just don't get what the SU-75 wants to be. It's as if the aircraft has bi-polar disorder.

On the one hand its all about price. But buying it at rock bottom pricing doesn't sound like it gets you anywhere near 5th gen capability. OTOH, if you spend more you'll get.... something better. How much better remains to be seen. Better than competing 4th gen designs? One would hope. Better than 5th gen F-35's of which there are now almost 750 flying? Not likely. And therein lies the rub IMO..

You're getting something much closer to a 4th gen bird vs. 5th. Whether that's "enough" for most countries I suppose we'll see. I think Russia itself will have a hard time accepting it into its ranks, but it may have no choice. In another 10 years their oldest aircraft will need replacing, and for the first time they may be in a position where "something is better than nothing".

Time will tell..


Yes, the Checkmate is really a low cost semi-stealthy fighter. (LO not VLO) Think something along the lines of a modern-day Mig-21. Which, would fill the same role as the aforementioned. That is a somewhat capable but low-cost fighter. That Russia could sell to her allies and select friends.
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milosh

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Unread post17 Jan 2022, 21:20

Su-75 would be LO fighter if UAC don't apply RAM on it. With RAM it is VLO. Design is stealth there isn't argument about that. But low cost and easy to maintain indicate marketed version don't have RAM or have RAM which isn't expensive and demanding.
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Unread post18 Jan 2022, 02:05

milosh wrote:Su-75 would be LO fighter if UAC don't apply RAM on it. With RAM it is VLO. Design is stealth there isn't argument about that. But low cost and easy to maintain indicate marketed version don't have RAM or have RAM which isn't expensive and demanding.



Sorry, adding RAM to the Su-75 isn't going to make it Stealthy (VLO) all of a sudden............ :roll:
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milosh

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Unread post18 Jan 2022, 10:19

Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:Su-75 would be LO fighter if UAC don't apply RAM on it. With RAM it is VLO. Design is stealth there isn't argument about that. But low cost and easy to maintain indicate marketed version don't have RAM or have RAM which isn't expensive and demanding.



Sorry, adding RAM to the Su-75 isn't going to make it Stealthy (VLO) all of a sudden............ :roll:


If airframe isnt vlo design then yes. But this is vlo design so with adequate ram it is vlo.
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Unread post18 Jan 2022, 10:25

milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:Su-75 would be LO fighter if UAC don't apply RAM on it. With RAM it is VLO. Design is stealth there isn't argument about that. But low cost and easy to maintain indicate marketed version don't have RAM or have RAM which isn't expensive and demanding.



Sorry, adding RAM to the Su-75 isn't going to make it Stealthy (VLO) all of a sudden............ :roll:


If airframe isnt vlo design then yes. But this is vlo design so with adequate ram it is vlo.



Sorry, we've seen nothing to suggest the Checkmate (Su-75) is VLO......... :|
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milosh

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Unread post18 Jan 2022, 11:33

Corsair1963 wrote:
Sorry, we've seen nothing to suggest the Checkmate (Su-75) is VLO......... :|


Yes we did.

1. planform alignment
2. weapon bays
3. stealth nozzle
4. S duct with dsi bump which hide engine
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