Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 09:32

madrat wrote:I don't understand the chorus bagging on the latest modernization in Russia. It had to change because Europe isn't their main threat, ot is China. Their eastern borders are quickly turning Sino-red and they are being undermined across an economic spectrum that is a huge threat to their future. Last time the Chinese got this aggressive there they had a real bloody skirmish that few people seem to even know happened. So Russia has no choice but to modernize at a greater efficiency than in the past.

Su-75 is a good analogy to an F-16 program. Russia has no F-35 program nor can they afford one. But they know quite a lot about stealth shaping and can match China in everything but numbers. So they are pushing quality over quantity now. Su-57 only has to match J-20 because the Su-75 will still outclass most everything else China has built. The real worry for the Kremlin isn't airframes, it is missile technology. Russia is lagging behind China there.


What? The Checkmate is nothing but a "cheap" semi stealthy low-cost fighter. Think something along the lines of a modern-day stealthy Mig-21.

So, I have my doubt it will be a real serious challenge to the Chinese J-20 and/or J-35.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 09:38

milosh wrote:MiG35 is overdue and expensive, hypothetical J35 is still prototype and for carrier so land variant will take time to be develop and with russian equipment even longer and it would cost a lot.

So only option is LTS if they think to have modern and cheap to operate fighter. SU35 could cost similar but it isn't more nor cheap to operate. Btw I am pretty sure cheaper variant of SU75 would cost less then SU35. I mean if have one engine same composite skin and coatings and cheaper airframe I don't see why it would cost more then SU35 especially for RuAF which don't pay RD costs.


The Checkmate is nothing but a concept at this stage. It doesn't even exist other than the model we saw over the summer. Nor, have they been able to find a partner to fully fund it either!

So, any predictions about the aircraft performance and/or price. Is nothing short of wild speculation....... :?
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milosh

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 10:03

Corsair1963 wrote:The Checkmate is nothing but a concept at this stage. It doesn't even exist other than the model we saw over the summer. Nor, have they been able to find a partner to fully fund it either!

So, any predictions about the aircraft performance and/or price. Is nothing short of wild speculation....... :?


And in your answer to madras you wrote LTS is CHEAP semi stealth :D

So make up your mind.

Btw how LTS is semi stealth exactly?

It shape IS stealth. In fact it is quite good stealth design because how narrow it is and massive DSI bump also small v stabs and mini horizontal stabs in combination with 3D tvc will generate small rcs increase and this is where I expect Sukhoi will have most problems to make FBW capable to use most out that control system I wouldn't be surprised if in start they go with much less capable fbw.
Last edited by milosh on 29 Nov 2021, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 10:14

milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Checkmate is nothing but a concept at this stage. It doesn't even exist other than the model we saw over the summer. Nor, have they been able to find a partner to fully fund it either!

So, any predictions about the aircraft performance and/or price. Is nothing short of wild speculation....... :?


And in your answer to madras you wrote LTS is cheap semi stealth :D

So make up your mind.

Btw how LTS is semi stealth exactly?

It shape IS stealth. In fact it is quite good stealth design because how narrow it is and massive DSI bump also small v stabs and mini horizontal stabs in combination with 3D tvc will generate small rcs increase and this is where I expect Sukhoi will have most problems to make FBW capable to use most out that control system I wouldn't be surprised if in start they go with much less capable fbw.


I didn't say the Checkmate (LTS) isn't stealthy. It just doesn't offer a high level of stealth.

Think of the Checkmate as a LO (low observable) aircraft like the F-117 vs VLO (very low observable) like the F-22/F-35.

Honestly, in many respects the aircraft is crude by Western Standards.

If, some think the Checkmate is a serious challenger to the F-35. Then they're very mistaken. :shock:
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milosh

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 10:32

F117 is VLO its RCS would compromise with small antennas or with bolts. LO is something like euro canards they don't have noticeable stealth form even f18e have some like in case of intakes and two angled Vstabs.

I think LTS in terms of shape excellent but if they are chasing something like stealthy MiG21 of XXI it wouldn't use advanced composites and coatings so price and maintaince be as cheap as possible.
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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 10:44

milosh wrote:F117 is VLO its RCS would compromise with small antennas or with bolts. LO is something like euro canards they don't have noticeable stealth form even f18e have some like in case of intakes and two angled Vstabs.

I think LTS in terms of shape excellent but if they are chasing something like stealthy MiG21 of XXI it wouldn't use advanced composites and coatings so price and maintaince be as cheap as possible.



I doubt you will find many that believe the Checkmate has a very high level of Stealth. (low RCS) At least not in the class of the F-22/F-35.
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milosh

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 11:31

Corsair1963 wrote:
I doubt you will find many that believe the Checkmate has a very high level of Stealth. (low RCS) At least not in the class of the F-22/F-35.


Which is what I wrote. They want as low as possible price and easy maintenance so ram and coatings will be cheap. This doesn't mean they can't build in future upgraded version with better ram and coatings. For example if you look engine option they do leave space for 16.5ton engine which is variant of next Saturn engine.
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mixelflick

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 17:27

The way I read this, Checkmate is to be the rough equivalent of the S. Korean KF-X.

1.) Early versions aren't VLO
2.) Early versions may not even be LO, given (at least in the case of KF-X) weapons are carried externally. For the sake of discussion though, let's give Checkmate the LO tag here..
3.) Future or "full up" versions of the Checkmate might be VLO, provided the customer wants to spend the money AND Russia can facilitate a mass produced VLO configuration

Thing is, as an export customer I'd have to fund both the developmental costs of #3, as well as my initial airframe order. And here's the big one, (as we saw with India) - there's no guarantee my investment gets to a VLO state. No guarantee it's going to pay off. In fact, there's probably a 50/50 chance it won't. Now, do I want to gamble that kind of money?

Probably not.

By then it'll be circa 2030 and I still don't have a truly 5th gen airframe, as the 6th gen birds take to the air. My adversaries are probably flying enhanced versions of the F-35 by then, with much more capable A2A missiles to boot. The best I'll have is a "stealth light" LO fighter.

Hindsight being 20/20, the Russians lost 10 years after the Soviet Union dissolved, and probably another 10 pursuing the SU-57 instead of Checkmate. Turns out big mistakes in making key decisions isn't just a Western thing..
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milosh

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 17:55

@Mix

SU57 isn't canceled four more could be delivered this year so they plan to have SU57 and SU75 and they share lot of things I mean parts of SU57 airframe are used on SU75. I wouldn't be surprised if new production facility for SU57 be used for SU75 too.

Btw SU75 is quite good happening for RuAF. Imagine if MiG35 didn't failed. They will get them instead SU75. So one more expensive platform which arent LO a similar problem like F15X for USAF. Good thing MiG don't have leverage as Boeing.

So RuAF would be really stupid not ordering SU75 even in el cheapo variant (LO or poor VLO).
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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 19:56

I don't see how su-75 could be cheaper than Su-35.

su-35 have a fully amortized production line with all the supporting network around to maintaining it for decades. All the subsystem makers have already been building parts for flanker series for years. If they want to pump out a su-35++, any new prototype would not cost that much more than a standard production su-35.

On the other hand, it would cost a whole lot of money to build the demonstrators and then the prototypes needed to finish development of su-75. After that, they need to go through the pain staking process of setting up an initial production line that's probably really not cost efficient. Only if they can get enough orders, will they be able to improve the tooling and production processes enough to drive the cost down. And with that, we haven't even gotten around to talking maintenance, which is going to be very high if Russians are trying even the slightest to make this a stealthy platform. Maintaining stealth is expensive. Especially for a new operator.

If it's not meant to be stealthy or have new generation engine or have new generation avionics, what's the point?
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milosh

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 21:08

SU75 use lot of SU57 and SU35 components for example it jsve SU35 engine and airframe parts of SU57 so it use already in production parts. Radar is also already developed and ols only EOTS like sensor isnt but it isn't expected for el cheapo variant.

Why el cheapo? Beacuse they get real LO for low price.
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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 23:35

milosh wrote:@Mix

SU57 isn't canceled four more could be delivered this year so they plan to have SU57 and SU75 and they share lot of things I mean parts of SU57 airframe are used on SU75. I wouldn't be surprised if new production facility for SU57 be used for SU75 too.

Btw SU75 is quite good happening for RuAF. Imagine if MiG35 didn't failed. They will get them instead SU75. So one more expensive platform which arent LO a similar problem like F15X for USAF. Good thing MiG don't have leverage as Boeing.

So RuAF would be really stupid not ordering SU75 even in el cheapo variant (LO or poor VLO).



You talk like the Checkmate is been fully funded and is in development. :?
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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 23:42

milosh wrote:@Mix

SU57 isn't canceled four more could be delivered this year so they plan to have SU57 and SU75 and they share lot of things I mean parts of SU57 airframe are used on SU75. I wouldn't be surprised if new production facility for SU57 be used for SU75 too.

Btw SU75 is quite good happening for RuAF. Imagine if MiG35 didn't failed. They will get them instead SU75. So one more expensive platform which arent LO a similar problem like F15X for USAF. Good thing MiG don't have leverage as Boeing.

So RuAF would be really stupid not ordering SU75 even in el cheapo variant (LO or poor VLO).



The Su-57 has pretty much been a big failure for the Russian Air Force. While the Checkmate is nothing but a poor man's stealth fighter. Assuming that it is even developed.....(questionable)

So, I see little to get excited about.... :|
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milosh

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Unread post30 Nov 2021, 07:37

Same story as with SU57. You and others were sure it will be canceled because lack of funds even though Russia spend 80 billions on f. Olympics and World cup world in similar time.

SU57 got to F22 like LRIP with domestic funds and main problem wasn't funds but tech. They still didn't start with serial production of thier AETP engine. Saturn off icial said 2022 but we need to see.

SU75 thanks to Sduct and DSI intake don't need it to be stealthy which make it as backup option for SU57 if new engine is delayed again.

So now same story they need buyer for el cheapo SU75 because they lack funds. Even though new gas long therm deals will be lot more expensive.
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Unread post30 Nov 2021, 08:59

milosh wrote:Same story as with SU57. You and others were sure it will be canceled because lack of funds even though Russia spend 80 billions on f. Olympics and World cup world in similar time.

SU57 got to F22 like LRIP with domestic funds and main problem wasn't funds but tech. They still didn't start with serial production of thier AETP engine. Saturn off icial said 2022 but we need to see.

SU75 thanks to Sduct and DSI intake don't need it to be stealthy which make it as backup option for SU57 if new engine is delayed again.

So now same story they need buyer for el cheapo SU75 because they lack funds. Even though new gas long therm deals will be lot more expensive.



Russia is building like 8-9 per year. Which, speaks volumes.........
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