Su-35 vs Su-30sm2

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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viperzerof-2

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Unread post28 Sep 2021, 00:12

Hello everyone

Often we see posts about the Su-35 vs various western aircraft. However I wanted to know how it would do it’s counter part the Su-30sm2. The Su-30sm2 is an upgrade to give the Su-30 the same engines and radar as the su-35. The Su-35 has from what I can tell from the MAKS has ad an empty weight of 41888 lbs. I couldn’t find the empty weight of the SU-30sm2 but the MKI is 40565 lbs empty. Al-31fp engines weigh 3352 lbs empty while the AL-41f1 is 3536 according to wiki. Irbis-e is very hard to find weight figures other then an hersay post on key.aero claiming a 200kg weight savings over the 650 kg n011m bars radar. So about a 73 lbs difference if those were the only changes which is certainly not the case.

The point being both aircraft are likely either very similar in weight (and thus thrust to weight) or within about 1000lbs. The most interesting difference though since both aircraft have thrust vectoring is what role will the canards play. The SU-35 eliminated them, Radar was lighter, fly by wire improved thrust vectoring matured. I’ve seen it claimed they increase drag but I remember in the 90s it was mentioned the canards on the su-27m/su-37 decreased trim drag. I also know that on the su-27m they gave an impressive pitch rate of 120 degrees in under 2 seconds while on the su-33 they are very useful at slow speeds. Since both the Su-35 and Su-30 are substantially heavier then the old Su-27, I wonder if the canards and enlarged LERX might help the Su-30 with wing load vs the Su-35. The Su-30 being a two seater is undoubtedly carrying the draggier canopy. I’ve heard a different opinion on what’s better with one vs two crew in an air battle from everyone I’ve listened too.

So to get to the point, assuming two equal crews and equal loads, who wins a gun fight and who wings a gun/fox 2 fight? Are they different enough for it to matter or does one have at least some noticeable advantages. Who is the true ultimate Flanker?
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madrat

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Unread post28 Sep 2021, 00:42

Su-30sm2 wins on situational awareness, MMI, lift, and drag.

Su-35S wins the airshows, fun factor, and looking down the peephole.
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milosh

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Unread post28 Sep 2021, 18:17

madrat wrote:Su-30sm2 wins on situational awareness, MMI, lift, and drag.

Su-35S wins the airshows, fun factor, and looking down the peephole.


Su-35 carry noticeable more fuel and have less drag, so range is better which translate in useful super cruising. Su-30 even with AL-41 is hardly effective for that (less fuel, higher drag).

I didn't find any data about RAM composites in case of Su-30SM2 but Su-35 use them for skin,so RCS of Su-35 is noticeable lower then older Su-30 but maybe Su-30SM2 also got similar skin treatment but its canopy is still problem for RCS.

So Su-35 have noticeable better range and noticeable smaller RCS as interceptor it is clearly superior.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Sep 2021, 06:45

milosh wrote:
madrat wrote:Su-30sm2 wins on situational awareness, MMI, lift, and drag.

Su-35S wins the airshows, fun factor, and looking down the peephole.


Su-35 carry noticeable more fuel and have less drag, so range is better which translate in useful super cruising. Su-30 even with AL-41 is hardly effective for that (less fuel, higher drag).

I didn't find any data about RAM composites in case of Su-30SM2 but Su-35 use them for skin,so RCS of Su-35 is noticeable lower then older Su-30 but maybe Su-30SM2 also got similar skin treatment but its canopy is still problem for RCS.

So Su-35 have noticeable better range and noticeable smaller RCS as interceptor it is clearly superior.



The Su-35 still has a RCS of a bus........(instead of a barn) Which, means little anyways. The second you start adding external stores.
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mixelflick

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Unread post29 Sep 2021, 17:43

Apparently the Russians think the SU-35 is superior, although it's interesting they decided the vast majority of the fleet would consist of up-rated SU-30's with SU-35 tech.

I'll take the SU-35 on looks but the SU-30SM2 WVR, two sets of eyeballs/heads being better than one and all..
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madrat

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Unread post30 Sep 2021, 03:31

Su-30SM2 has a second seat to give better crew endurance, and the difference in fuel between the two is meaningless. The Su-35S has to take the pilot to his attention level limits. There is a point where more fuel doesn't actually mean your pilot is more effective throughout the mission.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post30 Sep 2021, 14:42

Su-35 and Su-30SM are made by two different plants, KNAAZ and Irkut so there’s some differences and even rivalry between the two plants. I think the large Su-30SM orders are meant to keep Irkut alive. Overall the Su-35 is a more capable aircraft with more advanced avionics, but it’s a bit more expensive.
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viperzerof-2

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Unread post30 Sep 2021, 17:19

I believe the SU-30sm2 has the same avionics as the Su-35.
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mixelflick

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Unread post02 Oct 2021, 15:07

viperzerof-2 wrote:I believe the SU-30sm2 has the same avionics as the Su-35.



The way I understand it, they will be once the SU-35's avionics are transplanted (for lack of a better word). Not sure about new-builds. The decision here is obviously influenced by cost, as the SU-35 is significantly more expensive to buy, operate etc.. And there are more SU-30's so, there you go. I'm sure the dual crew was also considered, and I do subscribe to the "two heads are better than one" philosophy...

They will be difficult adversaries, but every passing day will show their age. Those PESA radars are already quite inferior to anything flying with AESA's, and the other sensors/engines are way behind some of the latest western equipment. Although they said the SU-35 would be the penultimate Flanker, I'm not so sure. If the Checkmate doesn't go anywhere (likely), they'll build a Super Duper Flanker and maybe hire SAAB's PR people (after Gripen completely fails) to talk about "balanced stealth" :mrgreen:
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milosh

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Unread post03 Oct 2021, 08:14

Most RuAF Su-30 are quite new build in 2010s so it is logical to upgrade them to best they have. That also help a lot with logicstic becuase Su-30 and Su-35 will be lot more compatible.

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