Navy 6th Generation Fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post16 Apr 2021, 16:12

zero-one wrote: I'm not an aero engineer but from what I remember, these flying wing designs don't maneuver well.

pre FBW flying wings were tricky, even deadly. with FBW the B-2 was able to handle wonderfully. This, however, would behave more like a M2000 than a B-2. The top mounted inlets will need to be designed to keep the engines fed at high AoA and sideslip. The handling part is very doable.
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zero-one

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Unread post16 Apr 2021, 16:59

Oh yeah, those engines will suffocate at low speed high AOA, maybe it has intakes under the belly as well?
The Mig-29 has intakes above the the LREX as well.

A lot of concept art seems to be leaning towards a flying wing design, the USAF's 73'rd aniversary poster also seems to have a flying wing on it.

Can you really achieve or even exceed traditional fighter performance metrics with a flying wing, or is this confirmation that the USAF is moving away from performance relying more on new technologies to keep the new airplane away from the merge
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 Apr 2021, 14:10

Its hard to see the move to a flying wing, with an Air Force still ruled by the Eagle mafia...

Unfortunately, you don't see USAF leadership jazzed about the F-35. Quite the opposite in fact, as several recent comments by people in high places has hurt the program tremendously. New F-15's were bad enough, but now the suggestion that we need a "new" F-16? Or how about the incredibly insulting suggestion it'd be a waste to include F-35's in ongoing war games/exercises? "It wouldn’t be worth it," he said, as.”every [F-35] fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios” - General Clint Hinote

Who says sh!t like this??

And you just know its going to get worse when the NGAD/PCA see the light of day. People love shiny and new, and the F-35 program will suffer for it. Especially if NGAD development goes well, you can bet the F-35 buy ultimately gets cut. Likely deep cuts, at that..
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pron

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Unread post17 Apr 2021, 15:22

mixelflick wrote:Unfortunately, you don't see USAF leadership jazzed about the F-35. Quite the opposite in fact, as several recent comments by people in high places has hurt the program tremendously. New F-15's were bad enough, but now the suggestion that we need a "new" F-16? Or how about the incredibly insulting suggestion it'd be a waste to include F-35's in ongoing war games/exercises? "It wouldn’t be worth it," he said, as.”every [F-35] fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios” - General Clint Hinote

Who says sh!t like this??

I totally agree with you. It almost looks like an organized course of action to achieve a goal, but who are behind it all?
It's been so many strange things about F-35 coming from people high in the ranks the last months.
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madrat

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Unread post17 Apr 2021, 17:45

Just the last 100ish days
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viperzerof-2

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Unread post18 Apr 2021, 22:35

pron wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Unfortunately, you don't see USAF leadership jazzed about the F-35. Quite the opposite in fact, as several recent comments by people in high places has hurt the program tremendously. New F-15's were bad enough, but now the suggestion that we need a "new" F-16? Or how about the incredibly insulting suggestion it'd be a waste to include F-35's in ongoing war games/exercises? "It wouldn’t be worth it," he said, as.”every [F-35] fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios” - General Clint Hinote

Who says sh!t like this??

I totally agree with you. It almost looks like an organized course of action to achieve a goal, but who are behind it all?
It's been so many strange things about F-35 coming from people high in the ranks the last months.



Simple they want to buy a new plane, you don’t get that by saying the other brand new one you have is great. Lockheed’s silence is interesting though, I wonder if it’s their new plane.
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zero-one

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Unread post18 Apr 2021, 22:39

mixelflick wrote:"It wouldn’t be worth it," he said, as.”every [F-35] fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios” - General Clint Hinote

Who says sh!t like this??


To be clear here, here is the context of that statement


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... d-wargames
Defense News described the outcome of that wargame as a "pyrrhic" victory for the U.S. military and one that was only achieved by the employment of capabilities that are not yet actually in service.

Those capabilities include F-35As equipped with the full suite of upgrades enabled by the still-in-development Block 4 software package. Block 4 F-35As are set to feature enhanced radar and electronic warfare capabilities, as well as the ability to carry new weapons.


So he is not saying that the F-35 is not worth it, he is saying the F-35, as it is today (block 3F) isn't worth it against the toughest opponent the US could potentially face.

This is China we're talking here, outside of Nukes, China has surpassed the kind of threat the USSR ever was. The Soviets never came close to the kind of economic parity against the US, China is enjoying now.

And I think the kind of parity China is enjoying now, technology wise has matched or surpassed what the Soviets ever had against NATO. So saying that it will take further advancments to America's top toer assets isn't really a surprise.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post19 Apr 2021, 07:26

I agree zero-one. Current Block 3F is extremely capable compared to previous aircraft, yet fairly limited for future combat. Block 4 will bring a lot of really important improvements over Block 3F. It brings a lot of new weapons, big improvements to sensors and sensor fusion (like "Big SAR" along with significant improvements to EW/ESM capabilities. It will be tremendously more capable aircraft after Block 4 upgrades.

I do think that describing current Block 3F as "not worth it" is way too harsh though. Of course it's better to use Block 4.2 F-35s along with NGAD, F/A-XX and whatever UCAV they can come up with. However of all currently available aircraft, F-35 Block 3F would really be worth it. Only F-22 and B-2 could be used and there are very small number of those overall. F-35 Block 3F can still act like eyes and ears better than any other platform. It can penetrate enemy defences better than just about any other aircraft, including F-22. That's because of their capabilities and because there are so many of them already. If they came up with scenarios where F-35 Block 3F was not worth it, then nothing currently flying would not be worth it.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post19 Apr 2021, 07:49

The "wargame" in question was a highly hypothetical future conflict. Honestly, we shouldn't read to much into it......
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hornetfinn

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Unread post19 Apr 2021, 08:49

I agree and I can see why they say that there will be need for full warfighting capabilities for F-35 along with NGAD and other future capabilities to succeed in that hypothetical and likely extremely lethal environment. I think they could say this more clearly but that can also be editorial thing.

Anyway this brings me to another thing. Upgradeability and flexibility can easily be seen to be the extremely important for any future combat aircraft. F-35 is definitely meant to be highly upgradeable from the beginning and will be upgraded like no other combat aircraft has been to this date. Any 6th generation aircraft will likely be even more upgradeable and I think we will see some totally new concepts for that. This is also pretty evident from comments by different air forces and services. Of course this might raise problems with testing and training. We will likely see some totally new concepts for those as well to support increasing rate of change.
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mixelflick

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Unread post19 Apr 2021, 15:04

zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:"It wouldn’t be worth it," he said, as.”every [F-35] fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios” - General Clint Hinote

Who says sh!t like this??


To be clear here, here is the context of that statement


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... d-wargames
Defense News described the outcome of that wargame as a "pyrrhic" victory for the U.S. military and one that was only achieved by the employment of capabilities that are not yet actually in service.

Those capabilities include F-35As equipped with the full suite of upgrades enabled by the still-in-development Block 4 software package. Block 4 F-35As are set to feature enhanced radar and electronic warfare capabilities, as well as the ability to carry new weapons.


So he is not saying that the F-35 is not worth it, he is saying the F-35, as it is today (block 3F) isn't worth it against the toughest opponent the US could potentially face.

This is China we're talking here, outside of Nukes, China has surpassed the kind of threat the USSR ever was. The Soviets never came close to the kind of economic parity against the US, China is enjoying now.

And I think the kind of parity China is enjoying now, technology wise has matched or surpassed what the Soviets ever had against NATO. So saying that it will take further advancments to America's top toer assets isn't really a surprise.


OK, I can see what you mean (about what he means/meant).

The problem is that most people reading that quote don't concern themselves with the particulars. They simply read it as "F-35 sucks". Like it or not, his quote will be summed up in those 2 words by most of the American public. And regrettably, that includes all kinds of people - from your local janitor to your Congressman. Couple it with the other derogatory things said about the F-35, and it just validates that impression.

Very unfortunate, coming so soon after Lockheed had done to much to change public perception. Billy Flynn's display in Paris, publicizing the results of several red/green flag exercises and the F-35 demo team touring the country. It's all being un-done by these armchair gurus, most of which I'm convinced have an agenda. If anything sucks, its the ignorance many of these people display...
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boogieman

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Unread post19 Apr 2021, 23:27

IIRC the wargame was set in the 2030's, so there's not much point "bothering" with a 2021 F35 in a 2030s timeframe. The jet will be post Block 4 by then, and even more capable.
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Unread post20 Apr 2021, 08:07

boogieman wrote:IIRC the wargame was set in the 2030's, so there's not much point "bothering" with a 2021 F35 in a 2030s timeframe. The jet will be post Block 4 by then, and even more capable.


Exactly and I bet they didn't model it too optimistically (for US side) about the advancement of Chinese capabilities. However it might've been good comparison about the value of upgrades to F-35 to have some current Block 3F F-35s in those scenarios. I bet post Block 4 F-35 will be far more lethal and flexible than current one and a lot more survivable also. Of course there will likely be no Block 3F F-35s around in 2030's but it might've given better understanding about what capabilities and upgrades will really be needed going into 2030's. Naturally that might already be well known from other wargames.
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boogieman

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Unread post20 Apr 2021, 10:46

Yes I am quite confident the comment was referencing the leap in capability that will have occurred thanks to Block 4.

Block 3F jets barely warrant a mention when you have a fleet of killers lobbing things like JATM, JSM, JASSM-ER, AARGM-ER and possibly hypersonics around the place. This is a standard part of the crawl-walk-run process inherent to new jets. The F35 is just starting to walk at the moment; it will at least be jogging by 2030 and I suspect that difference will be very obvious.
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boogieman

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Unread post20 Apr 2021, 10:53

PS. Wasn't sure where to post this so I'll leave it here. I give you the AIM-174(?):

174113536_10216934427306795_1706156476083338582_n.jpg

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... d-new-test

Pretty sweet. Makes the Phoenix look like a midget. Bad news for your neighbourhood H6K/N (what YJ-12?), along with red team ISR aircraft, tankers and surface vessels. Hopefully Block IB gets the same treatment for healthy doses of hypersonic "freedom". Love it.
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