Su-57 Felon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 Jan 2021, 15:59

milosh wrote:They bought Rafale and paid a lot of money.

If they want stealth they could buy F-35A in same way, I don't think there is any important transfer of tech with Rafale deal I could be wrong though, or buy Su-57. Su-57 even in this configuration is more stealth then Rafale will ever be.


Pretty clear any F-35 sale to India isn't going to be that easy. Same for the SU-57, although there it's for different reasons (marginal stealth until proven otherwise, lack of 2nd stage engines etc.). If they had confidence in it, they would have never pulled out of the project. But they did, so any SU-57 buy isn't likely anytime soon.

The Rafale buys them a very capable multi role platform with their first AESA radar, a reduced RCS and Meteor (I'm assuming that latter point, not entirely sure). The cost however, is the problem and fielding only 36 examples exacerbates it. Had they bought SH they'd probably have been a lot happier, as it could have served the Air Force and their Navy simultaneously.. likely with a lot fewer maintenance/logistical headaches. It may also have greased the groove for ultimate F-35 acquisition, although that's pure speculation on my part.

Much as I deride it, the SH is probably the best solution to their current fighter acquisition program. In its swing role, its a very capable bomb truck and can defend itself in the event another (non 5th gen) platform jumps it. It shares an engine with their Tejas, assuming they continue to acquire small numbers of it. It's not supposed to take on all comers air to air - they've staked that claim with their up-rated SU-30MKI's. Sadly for them though, China's Flankers are every bit as good (some would say even better), there are lots more of them and they come with much better air to air weapons and radars. And if all else fails, their J-20 will likely make short work of any Indian fighter put up against it. So that move too looks to have been a mistake IMO...

BOTTOM LINE: India very much needs stealth fighters and is likely looking for a good one. As it stands today though, there aren't any available to them... for a multitude of reasons.
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milosh

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Unread post07 Jan 2021, 17:04

mixelflick wrote:And if all else fails, their J-20 will likely make short work of any Indian fighter put up against it. So that move too looks to have been a mistake IMO...


Can you explain were exactly? Over Chinese air space? Right but that would happen even if they had F-35/Su-57 or any other stealth, Chinese would have lot more J-20 and will have support from their ground radars.

But in Indian airspace J-20 is pray not hunter. Indian radar and sam network plus very capable AWACS (they have best AWACS in world) will locate it easily.

Btw Su-30MKI are getting R-37M as part of Su-30MKI big upgrade program. Missile was tested by Indians in 2019.

It look like India is getting engine tech from France:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 935614.cms

Well if that is true Rafale deal is superb and probable it would increase chance of Rafales in new MMCA program.
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charlielima223

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Unread post07 Jan 2021, 20:20

Is India willing to go back to Russia for their FGFA?
If I remember correctly India dropped out of partnership with Russia stating concerns with stealth features, avionics package, engine tech, and technology transfer. Now that the "first" production PAKFA has been delivered, is that enough for the India. MoD to take a second look?
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milosh

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Unread post07 Jan 2021, 20:36

charlielima223 wrote:Is India willing to go back to Russia for their FGFA?
If I remember correctly India dropped out of partnership with Russia stating concerns with stealth features, avionics package, engine tech, and technology transfer. Now that the "first" production PAKFA has been delivered, is that enough for the India. MoD to take a second look?


I doubt it. They aren't hot for stealth as it look like and they have urgent problems to solve then to go with stealth. IMO ideal scenario in future would be India Korea cooperation in KFX, India deliver engine, Korea already done airframe, so they finance electronics. That way they became important player without dependence on others.
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tphuang

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Unread post08 Jan 2021, 20:27

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:And if all else fails, their J-20 will likely make short work of any Indian fighter put up against it. So that move too looks to have been a mistake IMO...


Can you explain were exactly? Over Chinese air space? Right but that would happen even if they had F-35/Su-57 or any other stealth, Chinese would have lot more J-20 and will have support from their ground radars.

But in Indian airspace J-20 is pray not hunter. Indian radar and sam network plus very capable AWACS (they have best AWACS in world) will locate it easily.

Btw Su-30MKI are getting R-37M as part of Su-30MKI big upgrade program. Missile was tested by Indians in 2019.

It look like India is getting engine tech from France:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 935614.cms

Well if that is true Rafale deal is superb and probable it would increase chance of Rafales in new MMCA program.


hmm, definitely not. J-20 probably has spent more time training against KJ-2000 (which is based on Phalcon technology) and S-300/400 SAMs and Su-30s than anything else in the world. They would've already developed tactics on how to strike against Indian air defense by now. I doubt J-20 would get exposed that much with all the other fighter jets they have around. India would have a lot harder time simulating what PLAAF might attack them with.

PLAAF would make mince meat out of India air defense. Seriously. PLAAF would have trouble with most of the stronger air forces around it like Japanese and South Koreans. Against anyone that uses mostly Russian hardware, they'd be at a decisive advantage.
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milosh

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Unread post09 Jan 2021, 12:26

You assume China can send most of its air force against India, which it can't. Small number of airfields, mostly without any shelters for planes.

Image

Chinese tanker fleet is smallish and based mostly on small tanker like H-6 tanker version.
https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-bal ... os-missile

In fact Korea which you mentioned as much harder opponent then India, would be in much worse situation because most powerful PLAAF military regions are very close to Korea.
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mixelflick

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Unread post09 Jan 2021, 16:27

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:And if all else fails, their J-20 will likely make short work of any Indian fighter put up against it. So that move too looks to have been a mistake IMO...


Can you explain were exactly? Over Chinese air space? Right but that would happen even if they had F-35/Su-57 or any other stealth, Chinese would have lot more J-20 and will have support from their ground radars.

But in Indian airspace J-20 is pray not hunter. Indian radar and sam network plus very capable AWACS (they have best AWACS in world) will locate it easily.

Btw Su-30MKI are getting R-37M as part of Su-30MKI big upgrade program. Missile was tested by Indians in 2019.

It look like India is getting engine tech from France:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 935614.cms

Well if that is true Rafale deal is superb and probable it would increase chance of Rafales in new MMCA program.


I meant that as it stands today, the J-20 would make short work out of anything the Indians are flying - in either country. It will be tougher in/over India but certainly far from impossible. If you think about it, no nation on Earth is better suited to run scenarios between the J-20 and Indian fighters. Most of which are souped up Flankers and Fishbeds (sound familiar?), Mig-29's, Mirage 2000's and a small number of Rafale. Exept for Meteor (is Indian Rafael even getting it)?, they'll know all about their air to air missiles too (in fact, theirs are much better). They also have most of the Russian AAAD/SAM systems India does, and presumably they've quantified those capabilities vs the J-20.

That's what I meant..
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tphuang

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Unread post09 Jan 2021, 18:26

milosh wrote:You assume China can send most of its air force against India, which it can't. Small number of airfields, mostly without any shelters for planes.

Image

Chinese tanker fleet is smallish and based mostly on small tanker like H-6 tanker version.
https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-bal ... os-missile

In fact Korea which you mentioned as much harder opponent then India, would be in much worse situation because most powerful PLAAF military regions are very close to Korea.


You seem to forget that PAF is also next to IAF. IAF simply cannot mobilize large parts of its air force against PLAAF in any realistic scenario.

China's tanker fleet is expected to grow quite a bit with H-20U
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milosh

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Unread post09 Jan 2021, 20:01

tphuang wrote:You seem to forget that PAF is also next to IAF. IAF simply cannot mobilize large parts of its air force against PLAAF in any realistic scenario.

China's tanker fleet is expected to grow quite a bit with H-20U


Even if you count reserve needed to hold PAF at bay, India still have noticable advantage over Chinese capabilities even in future.

It would need lot of time to developed decent tanker fleet for Chinese so India will be able to fix urgent problems in their AF and then see what to do with stealths.

So I think it is smart move they didn't jump in stealth wagon right now, they will have lot of problems to fix, and if they decide to buy stealths in future choice would be lot better.

F-35A with six long range missiles, or with combination of four long range missiles and four shorter range missiles (like Peregrin), Su-57 with new engine or invest in AMCA if they really get domestic M88 for it.
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Unread post10 Jan 2021, 01:06

Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Jan 2021, 05:07

milosh wrote:
Even if you count reserve needed to hold PAF at bay, India still have noticable advantage over Chinese capabilities even in future.

It would need lot of time to developed decent tanker fleet for Chinese so India will be able to fix urgent problems in their AF and then see what to do with stealths.

So I think it is smart move they didn't jump in stealth wagon right now, they will have lot of problems to fix, and if they decide to buy stealths in future choice would be lot better.

F-35A with six long range missiles, or with combination of four long range missiles and four shorter range missiles (like Peregrin), Su-57 with new engine or invest in AMCA if they really get domestic M88 for it.


China is building 48 J-20's per year and that number is growing. While, the J-31 is progressing in development and should enter service in the next few years. Then to add to that more and more tankers....

Honestly, don't see India's position as being anything but dire. Unless, she changes course and soon! (very soon)
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Unread post11 Jan 2021, 17:30

milosh wrote:
tphuang wrote:You seem to forget that PAF is also next to IAF. IAF simply cannot mobilize large parts of its air force against PLAAF in any realistic scenario.

China's tanker fleet is expected to grow quite a bit with H-20U


Even if you count reserve needed to hold PAF at bay, India still have noticable advantage over Chinese capabilities even in future.

It would need lot of time to developed decent tanker fleet for Chinese so India will be able to fix urgent problems in their AF and then see what to do with stealths.

So I think it is smart move they didn't jump in stealth wagon right now, they will have lot of problems to fix, and if they decide to buy stealths in future choice would be lot better.

F-35A with six long range missiles, or with combination of four long range missiles and four shorter range missiles (like Peregrin), Su-57 with new engine or invest in AMCA if they really get domestic M88 for it.


Have you looked into the availability of IAF's Su-30 and Mig-29 fleet? It's not pretty.

https://www.defencexp.com/if-all-sukhoi ... ut-of-272/

Right now, IAF has 260 Su-30s. How many will be preoccupied with PAF and how many will even be available to defend its borders?

This is the problem of not having your own industry supporting Russian purchased aircraft. This is not a problem that China has to worry about.

Even aside from conflict, there is still the very real issue of not having a LO-aircraft to train and maintain. All that lesson needs to learnt at some point. The later you start that process, the later you will be ready to fight.
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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 03:09

tphuang wrote:
Have you looked into the availability of IAF's Su-30 and Mig-29 fleet? It's not pretty.

https://www.defencexp.com/if-all-sukhoi ... ut-of-272/

Right now, IAF has 260 Su-30s. How many will be preoccupied with PAF and how many will even be available to defend its borders?

This is the problem of not having your own industry supporting Russian purchased aircraft. This is not a problem that China has to worry about.

Even aside from conflict, there is still the very real issue of not having a LO-aircraft to train and maintain. All that lesson needs to learnt at some point. The later you start that process, the later you will be ready to fight.


Pretty clear why India is buying more and more Western Military Hardware..... :|
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 17:00

At what point do they get away from the Flanker series though?

10 years ago, the SU-30MKI was more than enough to serve as India's heavyweight air superiority fighter. Today, there are Chinese Flankers every bit as good (some would say better), of course the J-20 and their J-10C is no slouch. If it gets the right missiles, even the JF-17 Block 3 might give it a run for its money.

They might yet buy the SU-57, although it'll be far from an ideal solution. Barring the very unlikely sale of F-35's to India, it has few other options...
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Unread post13 Jan 2021, 04:34

mixelflick wrote:At what point do they get away from the Flanker series though?

10 years ago, the SU-30MKI was more than enough to serve as India's heavyweight air superiority fighter. Today, there are Chinese Flankers every bit as good (some would say better), of course the J-20 and their J-10C is no slouch. If it gets the right missiles, even the JF-17 Block 3 might give it a run for its money.

They might yet buy the SU-57, although it'll be far from an ideal solution. Barring the very unlikely sale of F-35's to India, it has few other options...



India indeed has few options. Yet, likely comes down to two in the short-term.(<2030) Either they make a deal with the US for the F-35. That or they partner with South Korea on the KFX.

Why??? Because I don't see Su-57 or TFX as being viable options. While, 6th Generation Fighters like the F-X, FCAS, Tempest, etc. are to far out.
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