F/A-XX winner - Boeing or Northrop Grumann? (Poll)

[disconnectedradical]

A few years ago, Northrop Grumman released this concept art for next-gen naval fighter aircraft. Again, this could be anything, but personally I do hope that Northrop Grumman has been doing some classified behind the scenes work to strengthen their F/A-XX bid.

Northrop Grumman F/A-XX concept art

One thing to note, USN has been less ambitious with F/A-XX than USAF has been with NGAD to keep costs lower. For example, for F/A-XX the proposals have derivative turbofans like evolved F110s instead of NGAP engines. The airframe may be less ambitious as well, instead of tailless design, the Northrop Grumman concept art seems to show some kind of vertical tail, or maybe a V-tail arrangement?

[ricnunes]

...or maybe a V-tail arrangement?

A "navalized YF-23" would have such arrangement for sure.

[disconnectedradical]

A "navalized YF-23" would have such arrangement for sure.

The original navalized YF-23 (NATF-23) did have V-tails and also canards.



However the more recent rendering from Northrop Grumman, it’s harder to tell if it still has V-tails, and judging from the shadows, it looks like the tip that barely protrudes from the top surface, may just be the folded wing section.



I’m hoping that they can pull off a tailless design, but since USN is being more conservative and less ambitious with F/A-XX to keep costs down, that might not happen.

[ricnunes]

I was thinking more in the lines of something that looks closer to the actual YF-23 prototype (and not NATF-23) which includes the V-tails but not the canards and with the air intakes positioned above the wing (instead of below like in the YF-23 prototype and almost all other fighter aircraft for that matter).
Your rendering (second image) may actually look close to what I'm imagining.

[Corsair1963]

Interesting!

Mysterious Fuselage Spotted in Northrop Grumman’s Recap

The mysterious fuselage section from Northrop Grumman’s recap for 2025 Q3 hints at a fighter jet, judging from the overall form and a pair of S-duct air intakes.

It is known that Northrop Grumman is a contender in the US Navy’s F/A-XX program, which aims to succeed the Super Hornet fighters. Thus, the fuselage might be for an F/A-XX demonstrator.

[...]

Full article: https://www.turdef.com/article/mysterio ... an-s-recap

[hkultala]

A "navalized YF-23" would have such arrangement for sure.

The original navalized YF-23 (NATF-23) did have V-tails and also canards.

That proposed DP527 plane was not a "navalized YF-23". It was a totally different plane design.

In practice, there is more commonality between F-22 and F-35 than there is commonality between this plane and YF-23

So lets not call it "navalized YF-23" when it very clearly is not.

Lets just call it "Northrops proposal to NATF contest"

[Corsair1963]

I have my doubts that the F/A-XX will be any more successful than the original NATF. Especially, with all of the new Naval Shipbuilding.

Where will the USN get all of that money, and then develop something like the F/A-XX?

[Corsair1963]

As Northrop Grumman, they were never a prime contractor at all. Before the merge, Northrop was also a major subcontractor of the F/A-18 (legacy) Hornet and the last fighter aircraft that they develop in any form, was the F-20 Tigershark prototype. Northrop's last production fighter aircraft was the F-5E Tiger II while the last combat aircraft developed and manufactured by Northrop was the B-2 bomber.
Regarding Grumman, the last fighter and combat aircraft they developed and built was the F-14 Tomcat.
So, it has been a very long time since these companies developed and built an actual combat aircraft as prime contractors.
But yes, I think that Northrop Grumman could use its experience from the B-21 into the F/A-XX. They surely or likely know better than Boeing how to develop an actual combat ready stealth aircraft (something that Boeing never did apart from demonstrators) and since agility doesn't seem to be priority for the F/A-XX but instead range, stealth and payload then maybe who knows, Northrop Grumman may have some chances within the technical point-of-view realm?

hat sounds just like the Northrop Grumman merger. Lockheed Martin's last fighter was the F-104 developed in the mid 1950s. Then they bought General Dynamics (F-16) in 1993. Which, led to the development of the F-22 and F-35...(long time between types)

So, how is that really much different than Northop Grumman?

[hkultala]

As Lockheed Martin's last fighter was the F-104 developed in the mid 1950s. Then they bought General Dynamics (F-16) in 1993. Which, led to the development of the F-22 and F-35...(long time between types)

So, how is that really much different than Northop Grumman?

Please learn some actual history instead of posting this kind of garbage.

F-104 was made by Lockheed, not Lockheed Martin.

Then after F-104 they developed the YF-12, which did not go into production

Then YF-22 flew and was selected as the ATF winner before Lockheed bought the aerospace division of General Dynamics.

And Lockheed and Martin Marietta merged after Lockheed had bought the aerospace division of General Dynamics.

[ricnunes]

As Lockheed Martin's last fighter was the F-104 developed in the mid 1950s. Then they bought General Dynamics (F-16) in 1993. Which, led to the development of the F-22 and F-35...(long time between types)

So, how is that really much different than Northop Grumman?

Please learn some actual history instead of posting this kind of garbage.

F-104 was made by Lockheed, not Lockheed Martin.

Then after F-104 they developed the YF-12, which did not go into production

Then YF-22 flew and was selected as the ATF winner before Lockheed bought the aerospace division of General Dynamics.

And Lockheed and Martin Marietta merged after Lockheed had bought the aerospace division of General Dynamics.

And lets not forget about the F-117. Developed by Lockheed itself which actually went into production.
While not a fighter aircraft per se, it still was a fighter-sized advanced combat aircraft.

And then in-between there were all these special super advanced aircraft such as the U-2, A-12 (from which the YF-12 derived from), SR-71, TR-1/U-2R...

[disconnectedradical]

I have my doubts that the F/A-XX will be any more successful than the original NATF. Especially, with all of the new Naval Shipbuilding.

Where will the USN get all of that money, and then develop something like the F/A-XX?

This is the kind of mindset that happens when you can’t understand how all of our weapons work together as a system in the overall strategy, and also ignorant of history.

NATF was canceled in late 1990/early 1991 because USN needed to fund its top aviation priority, the A-12 Avenger II strike aircraft, and felt that upgraded 4th gen fighters like F-14D can be viable for fleet air defense out to 2015. The A-12 program collapsed because of cost/schedule overruns and technical problems, because the McDonnell Douglas/General Dynamics team at that time had little experience building stealth aircraft (nobody did outside of Lockheed and Northrop). Unless something like the end of Cold War happens where there’s a “peace dividend” (which is unlikely due to need to deter China), then the DOD funding won’t be quite as volatile unless it’s self inflicted. And for F/A-XX, both Boeing and Northrop Grumman now have much more experience with stealth, than McDonnell Douglas/General Dynamics did with the A-12.

Yes, shipbuilding is important. But the primary striking force of USN is carrier aviation, and ships like DDG(X) are designed around supporting the Carrier Strike Group and providing air and missile defense. And the F/A-XX is critical for maintaining the viability of the Carrier Air Wing (CVW), especially against the growing threat of the PLANAF and PLAAF. If the Carrier Air Wing is made less relevant by canceling F/A-XX, then that puts all the shipbuilding into question too, because what is even the point of designing and building ships to protect those carriers that lack adequate air wings?

There’s a reason, USN has put F/A-XX as highest modernization priority, ahead of DDG(X) and SSN(X).
https://news.usni.org/2023/01/18/cno-gi ... -destroyer

That proposed DP527 plane was not a "navalized YF-23". It was a totally different plane design.

In practice, there is more commonality between F-22 and F-35 than there is commonality between this plane and YF-23

So lets not call it "navalized YF-23" when it very clearly is not.

Lets just call it "Northrops proposal to NATF contest"

Calling it “navalized YF-23” is how it’s often referred to even inside Northrop, even if the actual airframe similarities is indeed very little. Both Lockheed team and Northrop team knew how different the NATF airframes would be, calling it “naval version” is a way for both DoD and contractors to satisfy the bean counters in Congress looking for “commonality” to reduce costs.

It’s similar to how the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was proposed as a “variant” of the F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornet even though the airframe was pretty much a new design that just looked roughly similar. Same kind of political play.

[weasel1962]

Navy doesn't seem to trust adaptive tech.

[disconnectedradical]

There’s cost and risk associated with NGAP, and those engines are among the riskier items for the F-47. It’s likely the F-47 is likely going to make maiden flight and initial testing with interim engines until XA102 or XA103 are ready.

USN is deliberately going lower risk and cost with F/A-XX compared to USAF with NGAD. So derivative turbofans, with likely candidate being something like a pair of an evolved F110, or maybe a fighter version of PW9000, something in the 30,000lbf thrust range.

[mixelflick]

There’s cost and risk associated with NGAP, and those engines are among the riskier items for the F-47. It’s likely the F-47 is likely going to make maiden flight and initial testing with interim engines until XA102 or XA103 are ready.

USN is deliberately going lower risk and cost with F/A-XX compared to USAF with NGAD. So derivative turbofans, with likely candidate being something like a pair of an evolved F110, or maybe a fighter version of PW9000, something in the 30,000lbf thrust range.

May also be that F/A-XX is going to come in much smaller/lighter than the F-47. The recent comments about its range only being 25% more than the current birds is also a clue. Thus, 30,000 - 35,000lb thrust engines may be "good enough" vs. newer, monster thrust (50,000lbs plus) AETP engines.

I could also be wrong as the F-14 was bigger/heavier than the F-15A/C, with weaker engines. Although I'd like to believe the Navy wouldn't make that mistake twice, they may not have a choice. They'll just have to go with what they have, as they did with the TF-30 when the modified F-101 ran into problems.

In that case, history will (hopefully not) be repeating itself.

[disconnectedradical]

May also be that F/A-XX is going to come in much smaller/lighter than the F-47. The recent comments about its range only being 25% more than the current birds is also a clue. Thus, 30,000 - 35,000lb thrust engines may be "good enough" vs. newer, monster thrust (50,000lbs plus) AETP engines.

This is wrong, the F-47’s XA102/XA103 engines (which are NGAP, not AETP) are 35,000lbf thrust class engines, not 50,000lbf. The NGAP engines (XA102/XA103) share a common core design as the AETP engines (XA100/XA101) but with a smaller fan for less raw thrust but more optimized for supercruise.

The shortfalls with interim engines (i.e. an F119 variant) on F-47 for initial flight testing won’t be thrust, it will be fuel efficiency and possibly thermal management for cooling avionics systems and possibly DEW. Again the risk and cost with NGAP is partly why the F/A-XX is going with lower risk derivative turbofans.
viewtopic.php?p=498984#p498984

The F/A-XX will probably be similar in weight as the F-47, probably just under 40,000lbs empty. But it’s a strike fighter designed for surface attack first and air superiority second, and doesn’t need long range supercruise like the F-47. This means F/A-XX greater emphasis on efficient subsonic cruise and supersonic dash in afterburner, which something like evolved F110 would be suited for.