164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2007, 18:06
by goatmilk
Now, I always promised myself I would never get into these XX vs. XX debates because they are pointless when it involves non experts (like me), but since I kinda got myself into one, I just wanted some possible insights from experts here just so I know I'm not going crazy :D So it was an F-15 vs. F-14 thread and I noticed some fairly obvious inaccurate comments being made (which should've been my hint not to join in). As a disclaimer, I said I'm not an expert and would attempt to explain my OPINION through accessible info I've read through published books and public websites. Lo and behold, self-proclaimed expert comes in with these claims:

F-14s have a higher kill ratio than the F-15, claiming 164-1, 159 by Iranian F-14s to 1 loss, citing a Tom Cooper book for the info.

One F-14A shot down Iraqi Mirage F1 with AIM-54 at 10 miles.

Said loss, F-14 was shot down by cannon fire from MiG-21 after -14 suffered engine failure.

F-14 can fly as slow as 90mph.

AIM-120 was first tested on F-14, not F-15, and Tomcat was cleared to carry it.

I claimed the F-14 was not cleared to carry AIM-120 as I thought it carried AIM-7 up until its retirement. I mentioned F-14 shot down 4 MiGs (Gulf of Sidra incidents) and 1 helicopter with 1 F-14 lost to SAM (Gulf War). As far as I know, the F-15 has the highest kill ratio of the jet age. I'd appreciate anyone in "the know" with insight if anything to broaden my knowledge of the history of the F-14.

After he made statements like "F-14 is more maneuverable than anything in the sky, although the F-16 is more agile" and "If it was the F-14D, the Tomcat would not have been lost to the MiG", I just rolled my eyes and clicked on that X on the top right corner :roll:

RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2007, 19:00
by ATFS_Crash
I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible
Baghdad Bob
http://www.vanhoey.org/baghdad/baghdad_bob.mpg

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2007, 12:15
by Sundowner
One F-16 was shot down over the Mediterranean by Mirage 2000. None F-15s were shot down... so far.

The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.

According to ACIG.org Tomcats scored 50 confirmed kills and 10 claimed during during 1976-1981 period. Lost none in air combat, but two were hit by SAMs (one damaged, one destroyed). Thats 100 short compared to your data Goatmilk.

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2007, 09:31
by stamatisg2002
A TuAF F-16D was shot down over the Aegean in the late '90s by a Mirage 2000, and a few (around 3-4) over Lebanon in 1982 by Syrian MiG-23s.

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2007, 19:18
by RoAF
and a few (around 3-4) over Lebanon in 1982 by Syrian MiG-23s.


No. According to some eywitness accounts, an IAF F-16 went down over Lebanon, behind Israeli lines, due to a malfunction - there were no Syrian air defence units in range and no Syrian interceptors in the air at that time and place.

The IAF lost in 82 over Lebanon 6 aircraft/helos :
an A-4, an F-4 and a couple of Cobras by SAMs
an F-4 and a Kfir shot down by MiG-21s

It is rumored that 2 or 3 F-15s returned to base damaged, but that's all.

As for the Greek-Turkish incident, it's debateable if it was intentional or a mistake.

Also a Japanese F-15 shot down its wingman in an exercise, and a PAF F-16 his, while intercepting some Soviet MiG-23s during the Afghan war.
Anyway blue-on-blue incidents do not count as victories, IMO.

As for Tom Cooper from ACIG.org, in the book mentioned in the first post he listed ALL Iranian CLAIMS to date for what they are - claims, he didn't pretend they were all confirmed victories. So far only 50 give or take are confirmed, as sundowner said. Anyway, researching the Iran-Irak war from the 80's is extremly difficult, no wonder there are mistakes.

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2007, 21:44
by stamatisg2002
I heard about a second TuAF F-16 or F-4 shot down over the Aegean during my military service in HAF, but who really knows..... Maybe all are rumours or all are true and classified.... Who knows..... :shrug: Only time will show...

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2007, 23:21
by snypa777
Sundowner wrote:The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.


How does that work then? :?

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2007, 18:52
by Boman
snypa777 wrote:
Sundowner wrote:The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.


How does that work then? :?
+

The AIM-54 detonates between the 3 jets flying in formation, close enough for serous damage to be inflicted on all :wink: I`ve heard it too 8)

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2007, 01:11
by MKopack
Sundowner wrote:The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.


I believe that there were a couple of incidents where US Navy Tomcats fired AIM-54's at Iraqi aircraft in 'no fly' zones, probably late 90's or so. They were without success as the missiles were fired at extreme range against targets there turned away and accelerated.

Mike

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2007, 13:31
by maddog2840
I remember a Tomcat splashing a USAF RF-4C out of Zwiebrucken circa 1987 give or take a couple of years. Weapon of choice, AIM-9. Nugget was in front and had his switches set wrong. Recce crew was picked up by the carrier's SAR guys and got to "chat" with the guy who made them go swimming.

Afterwards, the guys in our squadron posted a picture of the F-14 on the Real World Threat Board. Picture was captioned, "Watch Out for These Sneaky F***ers".

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2007, 14:26
by MKopack
maddog2840 wrote:I remember a Tomcat splashing a USAF RF-4C out of Zwiebrucken circa 1987 give or take a couple of years. Weapon of choice, AIM-9. Nugget was in front and had his switches set wrong. Recce crew was picked up by the carrier's SAR guys and got to "chat" with the guy who made them go swimming.

Afterwards, the guys in our squadron posted a picture of the F-14 on the Real World Threat Board. Picture was captioned, "Watch Out for These Sneaky F***ers".


I remember that as well, it was during an excercise in the Med, and the Navy had asked the AF to run strikes against the carrier group (and there can't be much faster on the deck than an RF in burner - and yes, they 'could' carry at least one type of weapon) as the Tomcats attempted intercepts. I had heard that just as soon as the 'Cat driver saw the missile launch he started calling 'eject'...

Of course it's not just the Navy, there was also the young Eagle pilot in Alaska who shot his Squadron commander as they deployed to their alert facility.

Mike

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2007, 22:27
by nomad
maddog2840 wrote:I remember a Tomcat splashing a USAF RF-4C out of Zwiebrucken circa 1987 give or take a couple of years. Weapon of choice, AIM-9. Nugget was in front and had his switches set wrong. Recce crew was picked up by the carrier's SAR guys and got to "chat" with the guy who made them go swimming.

Afterwards, the guys in our squadron posted a picture of the F-14 on the Real World Threat Board. Picture was captioned, "Watch Out for These Sneaky F***ers".


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
One thing that I certainly appreciate with American folks is their ability to make even bad things funny

Back ti the topik: I dont believe those numbers because those two airforce know how to make an mosquito look like an eagle. Iraqi pilots also claim victories with Mirage armed with SUper 539D. Not that this is impossible because super is a very fast missile. So for me their would be certainly a lot of kills but not that many.

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2007, 08:04
by Spooky
I have been told the same by Navy pilots.

I believe that there were a couple of incidents where US Navy Tomcats fired AIM-54's at Iraqi aircraft in 'no fly' zones, probably late 90's or so. They were without success as the missiles were fired at extreme range against targets there turned away and accelerated.

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2007, 19:57
by MKopack
Spooky wrote:I have been told the same by Navy pilots.

I believe that there were a couple of incidents where US Navy Tomcats fired AIM-54's at Iraqi aircraft in 'no fly' zones, probably late 90's or so. They were without success as the missiles were fired at extreme range against targets there turned away and accelerated.

Mike


The Phoenix shoots were pretty heavily reported in the media at the time.

Mike

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2007, 14:23
by Murph
goatmilk wrote:I claimed the F-14 was not cleared to carry AIM-120 as I thought it carried AIM-7 up until its retirement.


That is correct, the F-14 never carrried the AIM-120 operationally.

goatmilk wrote:F-14s have a higher kill ratio than the F-15, claiming 164-1, 159 by Iranian F-14s to 1 loss, citing a Tom Cooper book for the info.


The F-15A/C has never been lost in air to air combat, the F-14 has, so the F-15's ratio is higher. As far as cooper's claims, they are based on interviews with the pilots years after the events in question. Many of the kill claims are based on radar tracks disappearing from the F-14's scopes, and the Iranian government made no effort to confirm them for political reasons. If you know anything about the AWG-9's TWS "performance," especially overland you realize what a shaky basis that is to make a kill claim. As far as the legendary "three in one" kill, again if you understand how an AI radar works, that claim becomes laughable. If three aircraft are flying close enough together to be downed by a single missile, they are too close to be broken out as three distinct radar tracks, and the pilot has no way of knowing there is more than one aircraft there. If they are flying far enough apart for the radar to break them out, then they are outside the blast radius of the AIM-54.

Regards,
Murph

RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2008, 12:27
by Unwin
goatmilk wrote:I claimed the F-14 was not cleared to carry AIM-120 as I thought it carried AIM-7 up until its retirement.

That is correct, the F-14 never carrried the AIM-120 operationally.

Murph wrote:
goatmilk wrote:F-14s have a higher kill ratio than the F-15, claiming 164-1, 159 by Iranian F-14s to 1 loss, citing a Tom Cooper book for the info.

The F-15A/C has never been lost in air to air combat, the F-14 has, so the F-15's ratio is higher. As far as cooper's claims, they are based on interviews with the pilots years after the events in question. Many of the kill claims are based on radar tracks disappearing from the F-14's scopes, and the Iranian government made no effort to confirm them for political reasons. If you know anything about the AWG-9's TWS "performance," especially overland you realize what a shaky basis that is to make a kill claim. As far as the legendary "three in one" kill, again if you understand how an AI radar works, that claim becomes laughable. If three aircraft are flying close enough together to be downed by a single missile, they are too close to be broken out as three distinct radar tracks, and the pilot has no way of knowing there is more than one aircraft there. If they are flying far enough apart for the radar to break them out, then they are outside the blast radius of the AIM-54.


All true but they could have been using the Northrop AAX-1 camera if it was withen the camera range.

RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2008, 06:58
by huggy
Reference the 1987 RF-4C shootdown: the RF-4C pilot came through T-38 PIT around '94 when I was an IP there. Can't remember his name. He showed us the Tomcat gun camera video, and narrated. I don't remember exact details, but his opinion was that the Tomcat driver was a whack job, and never tried to warn the Phantom crew. Also, he claimed the Tomcat driver's father also shot down a friendly about 20-30 years earlier: sort of "ran in the family", eh?
Maybe someone posting here remembers his name, and can get him to re-tell the story.

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2008, 17:47
by George111
According to this linky
http://www.tomcat-sunset.org/forums/ind ... pic=1160.0

the Tomcat crew consisted of Lt Tom Dorsey and LtCdr Ed Holland. The RF-4C was serial 69-0381 and crewed by Lt. Randy Spouse and Capt. Michael Ross.

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2008, 09:42
by alaskanmarine1
The Tomcat was cleared for the AIM-120, the funding to make the fleet Tomcats operational with it was used for the Lantirn upgrade. It was a choice of one or the other, and the Lantirn upgrade was much more beneficial to the Tomcat. The Lantirn turned the Tomcat into arguably the finest strike fighter, even F-15E crews That got a chance to fly lantirn equiped Tomcats were impressed with its capabilities.

"the system performed even better than our F-15E benchmark, due to superior displays and controls in our version." Dan" Microshark" Fischoff

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2008, 01:16
by FlightDreamz
I agree with alaskanmarine1 - the Tomcat was tested with AiM-120 missiles. But clearance for carrying AMRAAM's was never completed due to lack of funding. Also with the Tomcats ability to carry AiM-54 Phoenix missiles, the need wasn't considered as pressing as say for the F/A-18 Hornet.

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2008, 06:01
by alaskanmarine1
Regardless the Tomcat is an Ace and deserves the respect that it's earned over 35 years of dedicated service.

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2008, 05:10
by TC
There has been so much information, and, more to the point, MISINFORMATION over the Iranian Tomcat program-Post Shah since the Ayatollah seized power that we probably will not know the truth until the time comes that we reestablish ties with Iran. Unfortunately, that will not happen until we have an administration that is willing to appropriately deal with them. As Forrest Gump said, That's all I've got to say about that.

RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2013, 20:51
by old.iraqi.air.force
Hello everyone,

Tom Cooper info generally not accurate and cannot be relied upon," very simple note" if we compare the number of the Iraqi aircraft that Iranian claims shot it down by F-14 you'll find the numbers more than Iraqi air force already own it of aircraft "in logic incredibly"!

Iraqi air force controlled the sky during the Iran-Iraq war,as United States dominated the skies of Iraq in Desert Storm. Otherwise, how do you explain the victory of Iraq's war against Iran during the eight years and do not forget the size of Iran's geographical and human resources, census and military machine!

However the Iranian F-14 were shot down many time by Iraqi air force "MiG-21MF, MiG-23, Mirage F1" and BTW absolutely never happened any air to air engagement between Iraqi MiG-25 and Iranian F-14 during Iran-Iraq war because we have seen there is no reason to send interceptors inside enemy territory beside we have large air space need to be protected.

The U.S F-15C were hit during gulf war by Iraqi MiG-25PD using two missile of R-40RD that was in 29 Jan 1991 the second one was in 16 Jan 1993 by Iraqi MiG-25PD also .

sorry to my English
Best regards

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2013, 20:56
by Gums
Salute!

Thank you "old.iraqi"

Great to have an honest, outside view of things.

Gums......

P.S. Now all we have to do is get some North Vee that flew Migs to jump in.

Re: RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2013, 06:00
by ptplauthor
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Tom Cooper info generally not accurate and cannot be relied upon," very simple note" if we compare the number of the Iraqi aircraft that Iranian claims shot it down by F-14 you'll find the numbers more than Iraqi air force already own it of aircraft "in logic incredibly"!

Iraqi air force controlled the sky during the Iran-Iraq war,as United States dominated the skies of Iraq in Desert Storm. Otherwise, how do you explain the victory of Iraq's war against Iran during the eight years and do not forget the size of Iran's geographical and human resources, census and military machine!

However the Iranian F-14 were shot down many time by Iraqi air force "MiG-21MF, MiG-23, Mirage F1" and BTW absolutely never happened any air to air engagement between Iraqi MiG-25 and Iranian F-14 during Iran-Iraq war because we have seen there is no reason to send interceptors inside enemy territory beside we have large air space need to be protected.

The U.S F-15C were hit during gulf war by Iraqi MiG-25PD using two missile of R-40RD that was in 29 Jan 1991 the second one was in 16 Jan 1993 by Iraqi MiG-25PD also .


With all due respect sir, don't most sources consider the war a bloody stalemate? Yes, Iraq had quite a few successes against Iran, however, the Iranians were able to counter, and the war ended up as a UN-mandated stalemate.

RE: Re: RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2013, 11:41
by mixelflick
There seems to be a dis-connect, between Iranian and US F-14 pilots re: The Phoenix. On the one hand, the Iranians held it in VERY high regard. On the other, an F-14 driver once told me, "The joke in the fleet is that the Phoenix is an air-to-ground missle..." :-)

The Phoenix US shots were taken by F-14D's at extreme range, at Foxbats. I've heard conflicting reports of rocket motors failing, etc. but nothing more. Would have been nice if it were disclosed how close they got to said Foxbats, but I understand this probably falls into the, "can't talk about that" category. LOL...

Regardless, the Phoenix seems to have accomplished its objective: Keep offending Soviet bombers etc. FAR away from the fleet. It's psychological impact , if not physical was imposing. I do believe the Iranian claims btw, as there's just too much evidence to suggest the Phoenix was successful. Add to that the Desert Storm reports of Iraqi fighters turning away when painted by the F-14's AWG-9, and I think it's rather obvious...

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2013, 20:06
by aaam
mixelflick wrote:There seems to be a dis-connect, between Iranian and US F-14 pilots re: The Phoenix. On the one hand, the Iranians held it in VERY high regard. On the other, an F-14 driver once told me, "The joke in the fleet is that the Phoenix is an air-to-ground missle..." :-)

The Phoenix US shots were taken by F-14D's at extreme range, at Foxbats. I've heard conflicting reports of rocket motors failing, etc. but nothing more. Would have been nice if it were disclosed how close they got to said Foxbats, but I understand this probably falls into the, "can't talk about that" category. LOL...

Regardless, the Phoenix seems to have accomplished its objective: Keep offending Soviet bombers etc. FAR away from the fleet. It's psychological impact , if not physical was imposing. I do believe the Iranian claims btw, as there's just too much evidence to suggest the Phoenix was successful. Add to that the Desert Storm reports of Iraqi fighters turning away when painted by the F-14's AWG-9, and I think it's rather obvious...


AIM-54s were fired in 1999 against Iraqi a/c at long range but failed to score. it's worthy of note that F-15s around the same time (maybe even the same engagement) fired AIM-120s at their extreme range and also missed.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2013, 13:49
by old.iraqi.air.force
aaam wrote:
mixelflick wrote:The Phoenix US shots were taken by F-14D's at extreme range, at Foxbats. I've heard conflicting reports of rocket motors failing, etc. but nothing more. Would have been nice if it were disclosed how close they got to said Foxbats, but I understand this probably falls into the, "can't talk about that" category. LOL...

Regardless, the Phoenix seems to have accomplished its objective: Keep offending Soviet bombers etc. FAR away from the fleet. It's psychological impact , if not physical was imposing. I do believe the Iranian claims btw, as there's just too much evidence to suggest the Phoenix was successful. Add to that the Desert Storm reports of Iraqi fighters turning away when painted by the F-14's AWG-9, and I think it's rather obvious...


AIM-54s were fired in 1999 against Iraqi a/c at long range but failed to score. it's worthy of note that F-15s around the same time (maybe even the same engagement) fired AIM-120s at their extreme range and also missed.

I don't mean offend, but i doubt they were even able to use the AIM-54A in correct way, add to that during the war was that Iranian F-14s are inoperational and can't deploy the AIM-54As in combat mission (for technical and professional reasons), logically the AIM-54 designed to neutralize fast and large targets such as bombers which is less maneuverability, fire it on movable ground target or air objective such MIGs just wasting ammunition for no achievement, and kindly if you can help me to prove your claim ( there's just too much evidence to suggest the Phoenix was successful ) where ! may i know? on Tom Cooper list Iranian Air-to-Air Victories! if does then you depends on prosaic source, claims only are not based on fact, totally incorrect. if you got chance to read this phrase ( highly-experienced Iranian pilots, the F-14A proved the ultimate "MiG-Killer" during the long war against Iraq, eventually scoring over 160 ) on acig, So let me tell you that you may be tricked into empty information, how many Super Etendard Iranians claims that shot down by their F-14 ? five to six ? simply none. because Iraq borrowed only five Super Etendard from the French in October 1983 were later after one year returned (minus one lost in a training accident ) when the dedicated version Mirage F-1EQ for anti ship missions was not in sufficient number. so I am just wondering and ask my self here: those Super Etendard ( as Tom Cooper or Iranians claims that shot down by Iran F-14 ) before 1983 and after 1984, come from where ?! as well with many other Iraqi air craft Iranians claims that shot down by their F-14 or F-4 or even F-5, actually we didn't know it's simple as that, just choose a specific date and name of any air craft that you would like to claim shot down and published somewhere, People will rely on as source and forward it, no serial number of Iraq aircraft no Iraq pilot name, just type and date and load of numbers on the list, just like christmas morning choose your favorite one.
Ok let's say between 4 to 6 F-22 raptor were shot down by MIG-19 in random date " choose whatever you like" in 1982 it's gonna be certified and documented in the future ?!!
who knows I've already written it and will see ..
Regards.

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2013, 22:58
by aaam
Phoenix thoughts:

AIM-54 was not a very agile missile (16 g), but it was a fast missile (M3.5 + launch speed < M5.5). It's primary role was to intercept bombers subsonic and supersonic, cruise missiles and high speed/high altitude aircraft. In fact the latter case was why the Shah wanted it. A fighter could out-turn it, provided it knew where the AIM-54 was. However, since it would be coming from so far away, a lot of times the victim had no idea where it was or even that it was coming. So, if flying a fairly predictable course, a fighter would be quite vulnerable to it if it wasn't spotted in time.

Because the AIM-54 is the Son of AIM-47 and the Grandson of GAR-X, its basic design goes back a ways. Although it has active terminal homing, its probability of direct hit against a maneuvering target is not as good as that of later missiles. Since it was known that in its design role it would get only one try at a particular target (especially a cruise missile), it seeks to compensate for that by having a very large warhead (2-3 times that of AIM-120) throwing out lots of stuff a good distance to facilitate a kill even from a near miss. So, yes, if some fighters were in close formation and an AiM-54 came down between them there could be multiple kills from a single missile.

Note I am not commenting on the validity of the Iranian claims, however.

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2013, 04:14
by maddog2840
snypa777 wrote:
Sundowner wrote:The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.


How does that work then? :?


Collateral damage from the exploding lead MiG-23 downed two of his wingmen and the four was seen exiting the scene and trailing smoke. The USAF/USN has a few doubles in Vietnam. You don't have to shoot them to kill them. An F-4 in Vietnam and an F-15 in Desert Storm used "Maneuvering" as the weapon of choice. In the official chronicle of Air to Air Victories in Vietnam, an RF-4C downed a MiG-17 and in the weapon used column you will find "Centerline Fuel Tank".

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2013, 22:50
by huggy
maddog2840 wrote:...an F-15 in Desert Storm used "Maneuvering" as the weapon of choice.

I don't recall that,... but I do seem to recall an EF-111 that was trying to evade an Iraqi F-1 during the war, and the F-1 hit the ground.

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2013, 04:57
by sprstdlyscottsmn
yeah, 2000# LGB is the most unique weapon of choice for an F-15 A-A kill.

Re:

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2013, 20:14
by old.iraqi.air.force
huggy wrote:I don't recall that,... but I do seem to recall an EF-111 that was trying to evade an Iraqi F-1 during the war, and the F-1 hit the ground.

Dear huggy,
There is no Iraqi Mirage F-1 hit the ground in gulf war 1991 desert storm, actually the Iraqi Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF shot down US EF-111A s/n 66-0023 on January 17-1991 but US claimed that EF-111A s/n 66-0023 was shot down on the 13/14th February, nearly one month after and this not truth, i can guess you relied on media sources such as history channel desert storm dogfights TV program, which is totally wrong, however the story below by the official former Iraqi air force facebook page.
Colonel pilot Nafie Najim Al-Jubouri.
From The former Iraqi Air Force
Born 1964 – KIA 2003
He graduated from the Greek Air Academy in 1986, he was one of the best pilot student at that time, he achieved golden sword award for high skilled performance, he had more than 1300 Flight hours until 2003.
Colonel pilot Nafie Al-Jubouri was just first lieutenant pilot in the Gulf War "Desert storm" who managed to attain one of the aerial victories by the Iraqi Air Force in his Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF, after midnight of January 17-1991 exactly at 0306 AM, Colonel Nafie scrambled and took off from Saad air base better to know H 2 west of Iraq, flying his Mirage F-1 on the first night of the war in order to root out and shoot-down Coalition aircraft bombing Iraq, when he received target info about U.S EF-111A northwest H 2, the sky of Iraq was totally covered by white lines of fired missiles due to the air combat, And coalition F-15s formations was just in every five miles around, but the Eagles was exhausted in that moment because the Iraqi FoxBat was chasing them, however Colonel pilot Nafie across the darkness of that night with flashing explosions on the ground as well as in the sky and headed directly to intercept the target, and just a few minutes later the U.S EF-111A appeared on his radar screen, after identified the target he confirmed to the Ground Control it's enemy aircraft and request permission to open fire, seconds later he got the permission and simultaneously locked the target and fired single missile type Matra 530 directly toward to the U.S EF-111A, s/n 66-0023, the F-111 tried to Jamming and avoid the missile, but the Matra 530 hit the F-111 in the cockpit sent it to the ground.
RIP to all Warriors fall in that conflict.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2013, 00:24
by huggy
I seem to recall this, because back on 17 Jan 91, I was living in a hardened bunker at Taif, Saudi Arabia, along with many EF-111 pilots/WSOs. Over the next day or two, there was word that an EF-111 maneuvered to avoid an F-1, and the F-1 flew into the ground during the maneuvering.

I also recall others talking about it a few years after the fact.

It's been over 20 years... and that's a lot brain cells that have moved on. But I'm pretty sure I have the overall gist of the story correct.

No... I don't watch "History Channel" for my information. In fact, I really don't watch TV. However, I love the irony that you then reference the "official former Iraqi Air Force Facebook page" as a credible source. Sounds legit!! Is Baghdad Bob the webmaster??

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2013, 13:18
by old.iraqi.air.force
huggy wrote:I seem to recall this, because back on 17 Jan 91, I was living in a hardened bunker at Taif, Saudi Arabia, along with many EF-111 pilots/WSOs. Over the next day or two, there was word that an EF-111 maneuvered to avoid an F-1, and the F-1 flew into the ground during the maneuvering.

I also recall others talking about it a few years after the fact.

It's been over 20 years... and that's a lot brain cells that have moved on. But I'm pretty sure I have the overall gist of the story correct.

No... I don't watch "History Channel" for my information. In fact, I really don't watch TV. However, I love the irony that you then reference the "official former Iraqi Air Force Facebook page" as a credible source. Sounds legit!! Is Baghdad Bob the webmaster??


Dear huggy,
Trust me there is no Iraqi F-1 hit the ground out-maneuvering, i know most Iraqi Mirage F-1 pilots (my friends) one of them Khaldoun Bakr the former commander of the Iraqi air force during nineties, however on January 17 we lost two F-1 shot down by US F-15s , one by Capt Rob Greater as we know and the other one by Capt Steve Tate, but there is an Iraqi Mirage F-1 piloted by Najim Abdullah Al-Jubouri fired one Magic missile on unarmed USAF EF-111, in the opening minutes of the Gulf War on 17 January 1991 they were both of them on low altitude (US & Iraqi F-1) probably an early detonation of missile have confused pilots as both sides claim victory in that time this is all what happened.
The "official former Iraqi Air Force Facebook page" created by retired fighter pilots to publish their ​​memoirs or stories as well rare photos from the past (totally independent there is no government department behind it).
Regards.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2013, 20:14
by outlaw162
FWIW,

http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/index.html

You guys can sort it out.

My wife says sometimes it's hard to tell what happened in the dark. :shock:

Re: Re:

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2013, 00:19
by mixelflick
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
huggy wrote:I don't recall that,... but I do seem to recall an EF-111 that was trying to evade an Iraqi F-1 during the war, and the F-1 hit the ground.

Dear huggy,
There is no Iraqi Mirage F-1 hit the ground in gulf war 1991 desert storm, actually the Iraqi Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF shot down US EF-111A s/n 66-0023 on January 17-1991 but US claimed that EF-111A s/n 66-0023 was shot down on the 13/14th February, nearly one month after and this not truth, i can guess you relied on media sources such as history channel desert storm dogfights TV program, which is totally wrong, however the story below by the official former Iraqi air force facebook page.
Colonel pilot Nafie Najim Al-Jubouri.
From The former Iraqi Air Force
Born 1964 – KIA 2003
He graduated from the Greek Air Academy in 1986, he was one of the best pilot student at that time, he achieved golden sword award for high skilled performance, he had more than 1300 Flight hours until 2003.
Colonel pilot Nafie Al-Jubouri was just first lieutenant pilot in the Gulf War "Desert storm" who managed to attain one of the aerial victories by the Iraqi Air Force in his Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF, after midnight of January 17-1991 exactly at 0306 AM, Colonel Nafie scrambled and took off from Saad air base better to know H 2 west of Iraq, flying his Mirage F-1 on the first night of the war in order to root out and shoot-down Coalition aircraft bombing Iraq, when he received target info about U.S EF-111A northwest H 2, the sky of Iraq was totally covered by white lines of fired missiles due to the air combat, And coalition F-15s formations was just in every five miles around, but the Eagles was exhausted in that moment because the Iraqi FoxBat was chasing them, however Colonel pilot Nafie across the darkness of that night with flashing explosions on the ground as well as in the sky and headed directly to intercept the target, and just a few minutes later the U.S EF-111A appeared on his radar screen, after identified the target he confirmed to the Ground Control it's enemy aircraft and request permission to open fire, seconds later he got the permission and simultaneously locked the target and fired single missile type Matra 530 directly toward to the U.S EF-111A, s/n 66-0023, the F-111 tried to Jamming and avoid the missile, but the Matra 530 hit the F-111 in the cockpit sent it to the ground.
RIP to all Warriors fall in that conflict.


Run on sentence of the year..

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2013, 00:32
by mixelflick
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
aaam wrote:
mixelflick wrote:The Phoenix US shots were taken by F-14D's at extreme range, at Foxbats. I've heard conflicting reports of rocket motors failing, etc. but nothing more. Would have been nice if it were disclosed how close they got to said Foxbats, but I understand this probably falls into the, "can't talk about that" category. LOL...

Regardless, the Phoenix seems to have accomplished its objective: Keep offending Soviet bombers etc. FAR away from the fleet. It's psychological impact , if not physical was imposing. I do believe the Iranian claims btw, as there's just too much evidence to suggest the Phoenix was successful. Add to that the Desert Storm reports of Iraqi fighters turning away when painted by the F-14's AWG-9, and I think it's rather obvious...


AIM-54s were fired in 1999 against Iraqi a/c at long range but failed to score. it's worthy of note that F-15s around the same time (maybe even the same engagement) fired AIM-120s at their extreme range and also missed.

I don't mean offend, but i doubt they were even able to use the AIM-54A in correct way, add to that during the war was that Iranian F-14s are inoperational and can't deploy the AIM-54As in combat mission (for technical and professional reasons), logically the AIM-54 designed to neutralize fast and large targets such as bombers which is less maneuverability, fire it on movable ground target or air objective such MIGs just wasting ammunition for no achievement, and kindly if you can help me to prove your claim ( there's just too much evidence to suggest the Phoenix was successful ) where ! may i know? on Tom Cooper list Iranian Air-to-Air Victories! if does then you depends on prosaic source, claims only are not based on fact, totally incorrect. if you got chance to read this phrase ( highly-experienced Iranian pilots, the F-14A proved the ultimate "MiG-Killer" during the long war against Iraq, eventually scoring over 160 ) on acig, So let me tell you that you may be tricked into empty information, how many Super Etendard Iranians claims that shot down by their F-14 ? five to six ? simply none. because Iraq borrowed only five Super Etendard from the French in October 1983 were later after one year returned (minus one lost in a training accident ) when the dedicated version Mirage F-1EQ for anti ship missions was not in sufficient number. so I am just wondering and ask my self here: those Super Etendard ( as Tom Cooper or Iranians claims that shot down by Iran F-14 ) before 1983 and after 1984, come from where ?! as well with many other Iraqi air craft Iranians claims that shot down by their F-14 or F-4 or even F-5, actually we didn't know it's simple as that, just choose a specific date and name of any air craft that you would like to claim shot down and published somewhere, People will rely on as source and forward it, no serial number of Iraq aircraft no Iraq pilot name, just type and date and load of numbers on the list, just like christmas morning choose your favorite one.
Ok let's say between 4 to 6 F-22 raptor were shot down by MIG-19 in random date " choose whatever you like" in 1982 it's gonna be certified and documented in the future ?!!
who knows I've already written it and will see ..
Regards.


WTF is this?

Listen Sparky, I dunno where you're getting your info but PLEASE organize your thoughts a bit better OK? Good lord, I read what you wrote 3x's and my brain still hurts. You're either hyped up on crystal meth or English isn't your first language.

I hope it's the latter...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2013, 02:52
by old.iraqi.air.force
outlaw162 wrote:FWIW,

http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/index.html

You guys can sort it out.

My wife says sometimes it's hard to tell what happened in the dark. :shock:


outlaw !
Nothing personal here we just talk about the past and air war history and clarify fact that was hidden for long years to each other, it's something happened about 23 years ago and "what happened is happened already" :wink:
But good you mentioned this link because i would like to clarify another air to air engagement during the gulf war 91 especially January 19: Rodriguez and Underhill VS Jameel Sayhood and Qasim Khalaf Hamad (F-15s VS MIG-29s).
Well Capt Qasim Khalaf Hamad from 39th Squadron of IrAF he is my close friend and we are in touch daily but unfortunately he still live in Iraq "under this situation" however, Capt Qasim Khalaf Hamad he didn't hit the ground or crashed as well (out-maneuvering) as the Coalition Air-to-Air Victories claimed, Capt Qasim Khalaf and formation leader Koutaiba Said received order to take offs immediately and intercept group of coalition air craft penetrate Iraqi air space from Saudi Arabia headed toward near Al-Nukhayb west of Iraq, to give cover to RAF Panavia Tornados in mission to bombing targets inside Iraq as well, however in that time Capt Jameel Sayhood and other Iraqi pilot was on standby to take off and intercept the British Tornados while Capt Qasim Khalaf and formation leader Koutaiba Said catch the sky and headed directly in high speed combat to coalition air craft, several minutes later it shows a group of four F-15s with one AWACS, the formation leader Koutaiba informed the ground control, seconds and he received "mission abort" and return to the base (proceeded to implement) but Capt Qasim Khalaf continued try to "lock on" the closer target and successfully hook one of them "while firing radar-guided missiles R-27R" the lock broken! It turned out that the target is AWACS, continued in his attempts to shut down the targets and fire missiles but the lock was broken again, repeat the process three times with clear and close targets, but he could not, Due to the Electronic Warfare ECM.
Here Rodriguez and Underhill came to him and he across between them, and began one of the most fiercest dog fight in the Gulf War, in this time Capt Jameel Sayhood prepare for take-off and intercept British aircraft while Capt Qasim Khalaf broke off attacking Rodriguez and Underhill, the British Tornados almost reached their targets Capt Sayhood took off and brought down the formation leader (British Tornado serial ZA467 piloted by Gary Lennox and Adrian Weeks) Capt Qasim Khalaf heard a call from Capt Sayhood that he shoot-down the Tornado back to face Rodriguez and Underhill, Capt Sayhood he just got one (Morale rose)thought the other one on the way as well..
Here (Rodriguez or Underhill) fired AIM-7M at Capt Qasim Khalaf MIG-29 followed by other on but Capt Qasim avoid both of them by sharp maneuver (Happening at the same time) Capt Sayhood joined the engagement the US F-15 "probably Underhill" fired tow AIM-7M on Sayhood MIG-29 the first one avoided but the second one hit him head on, Capt Sayhood managed to eject but his leg broken when he impact the ground (later got the honor from Iraqi government), now the other F-15 probably Rodriguez tried to lock on the other MIG-29 piloted by Capt Qasim which is broke the lock with split-S maneuverability Capt Qasim successfully passed low altitude super sonic speed the US F-15 and returned to the base and land safely.
This is all fact and total what happened.
Picture to Capt Qasim Khalaf the MIG-29 pilot.
Image

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2013, 05:44
by huggy
Mixelflick,
Um.... he is from Iraq, I would guess,... based on reading his posts. And his username. And the fact he says he's friends with Iraqi pilots from 20+ years ago.
So, I'm guessing English isn't his 1st language.
It's better than my Arabic, though.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2013, 14:14
by mixelflick
huggy wrote:Mixelflick,
Um.... he is from Iraq, I would guess,... based on reading his posts. And his username. And the fact he says he's friends with Iraqi pilots from 20+ years ago.
So, I'm guessing English isn't his 1st language.
It's better than my Arabic, though.


Fair point...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2013, 20:17
by Prinz_Eugn
I for one think it's pretty awesome to have someone from an ex-enemy posting. I could kind of buy the F1 vs F-111 thing, since IIRC they pilot and EWO (or whatever he is in the EF-111) did see an explosion and their would naturally not be a HUD tape of something behind you.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2013, 20:58
by huggy
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Trust me there is no Iraqi F-1 hit the ground out-maneuvering,...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Brandon

I looked around on the internet, and there are multiple sources that confirm this event.
It appears that Brandon, and the pilot (James Denton), received a Distinguished Flying Cross for the event,... which was witnessed by other in the area.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2013, 00:20
by old.iraqi.air.force
huggy wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Trust me there is no Iraqi F-1 hit the ground out-maneuvering,...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Brandon

I looked around on the internet, and there are multiple sources that confirm this event.
It appears that Brandon, and the pilot (James Denton), received a Distinguished Flying Cross for the event,... which was witnessed by other in the area.


Dear huggy,

First of all I would like to thank you to clarify my point in the previous comments because the English is not my first language for that I have mistakes with grammar as well with spelling and I hope everybody will excuse me.

However Wikipedia can not be relied upon as a reliable source, as everybody knows each one can create article and publish it with one click, but here I would like to share with you some official document list of the Iraqi Mirage F-1 statement after the war 1991 until 2003 (which is print out on book called Iraqi Fighters published by Brig.Gen.Ahmad Sadik & Tom Cooper) so you could build your idea in correct way because the same Mirage F-1 No 4021 flown to Iran after a few days from that incident (shooting down the F-111) and Iraqi air force announced that since nineties which is even before this story come up (such Iraqi Mirage F-1 hit the ground due to low-altitude maneuvering).
Image
Image
Image

And here another official document by Iraqi air force showing:
The time of the immediate takeoff.
The name of the pilot.
Details of Duty : immediate takeoff, intercepting and shot down.

I know its in Arabic and hard to read it but people who served in Iraq and, in particular air bases they can immediately note the document it official and real.

Image

And here official letter were sent by the Iraqi pilot Capt Nafie Al-Jubouri to President Saddam Hussein about this mission which is proof the incident.
Image
Image

By the way I always forget to mention the F-111 crashed inside Syrian territory not even In Iraq or Saudi Arabia.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2013, 01:25
by mixelflick
So they shot down an F-111. That makes the crew of the F-111 interviewed for that episode, liars?

If so, they're good ones...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2013, 03:00
by huggy
Old Iraqi,

It's good to have you on this website. I appreciate the different perspective you bring. I also appreciate the fact that you are able to do it in a language that is not native to your country. :applause:

As for the EF-111 incident, there are plenty more sources than the Wikipedia link I provided. Yes, I'm aware that Wikipedia is fraught with error. But if you do some searching on Western websites, I'm sure you will see what I am talking about.

As I mentioned, I knew of this about a day after it happened, since I was living with the EF-111 crews during the war.

If I can find a copy of the DFC citations that Denton and Brandon were given, I'll post them. But please note: getting a DFC like this requires a lot of proof. There were witnesses, and probably a lot of data from other electronic sources (AWACS, et. al...). In short, the USAF is unlikely to give a DFC to an incident like this unless they were quite positive how it took place.

I understand you have some sources that may not mention this incident. However, being an American, I tend to trust the sources provided from the West, and am skeptical of some Arabic sources from the Gulf War, which have historically been inaccurate.

I certainly do not doubt your sincerity,.... and I appreciate the fact that you have first-hand knowledge of many of the pilots that flew combat in the war. Keep in mind, though, that if that F-1 pilot did not have a wingman, there would probably not be an official Iraqi source that would have first hand knowledge as to how that F-1 was destroyed. In the chaos of the opening days of the war, it simply might have gone missing, and declared a "combat loss". The only witnesses to this event were Americans.

Are the many sources that I know of (and my first hand knowledge) wrong? Maybe they are. But I tend to trust them, based on what I know.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2013, 19:29
by mixelflick
I appreciate your perspective too, Old Iraqi.

And I'm open to other perspectives. One thing we all need to keep in mind is winners write the history books. I really enjoy seeing Russian hardware in action, which is why I started this post. The Mig-25/31 are beautiful birds in my book, and I'd love to hear more...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2013, 01:29
by old.iraqi.air.force
Huggy and Mixelflick,

I really appreciate the kind words and I hope everyone to stay tuned and don't take my comments such as offend, or attempt to impose opinion, just loved to share part from what I know of that past.

Best regards

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2013, 02:39
by mixelflick
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:I really appreciate the kind words and I hope everyone to stay tuned and don't take my comments such as offend, or attempt to impose opinion, just loved to share part from what i know of that past.

Can't be easy going from Arabic to English. Your English is better than some Americans brother...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2013, 00:34
by southernphantom
mixelflick wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:I really appreciate the kind words and I hope everyone to stay tuned and don't take my comments such as offend, or attempt to impose opinion, just loved to share part from what i know of that past.


Can't be easy going from Arabic to English. Your English is better than some Americans brother...


Anyone who's read YouTube comments knows this to be true :) :lol:

Re:

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2014, 23:53
by old.iraqi.air.force
maddog2840 wrote:Collateral damage from the exploding lead MiG-23 downed two of his wingmen and the four was seen exiting the scene and trailing smoke. The USAF/USN has a few doubles in Vietnam. You don't have to shoot them to kill them. An F-4 in Vietnam and an F-15 in Desert Storm used "Maneuvering" as the weapon of choice. In the official chronicle of Air to Air Victories in Vietnam, an RF-4C downed a MiG-17 and in the weapon used column you will find "Centerline Fuel Tank".


Well it took long time to reply because I've been searching for source in English language to you.
So in logic it's possible that occur, but in real life with unique evidence can easily refutes like this allegations.
The Iranian pilots who claimed that they shot down a three MIG-23 in one phoenix missile they're on this TV interview.
The Iranian pilot said it was a few days after the war started probably around at 9 or 930 in the evening!
1.The war started in 22 September 1980 where was no one pace of night vision system owned by Iraqi air force, plus three MIG-23 such a large grope (Who can carry big responsibility for sending three aircraft at night of the Iraqi air force leadership?).
2.The first air raid on Kharg island started in mid of eighties by F-1s and SU-22s "ability to carry the largest amount of bombs and guided bombs.(NEWS
Iraq Reports New Attack On Iranian Oil Terminal
August 26, 1985
Iraq said Sunday that its warplanes raided Iran's huge Kharg Island oil export terminal in the Persian Gulf for the second time in 11 days, dropping tons of bombs to cripple firefighting and repair efforts from the first attack. State-run Iraqi radio interrupted programs to announce the air strike and quoted a military spokesman in Baghdad who said the attack disproved "Iranian claims that Kharg Island is sufficiently protected." Iran said it beefed up defenses on the..
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/keyword/kharg-island).

3.NO SECRET anymore, The MIG-23 was the worst of Russian aircraft in terms of incidents include this common faults is take off the canopy "hud" above the pilot which forcing the pilot to return slowly due to severity of the wind (So how can send this aircraft at night and over the sea!?).
4.The Iranian pilot said that when they were entering the region "of kharg island" he saw a three aircraft on his radar screen about 65 miles away (which is mean northwest kharg island) and flying VERY close to each other at night(Don't forget these MIGs should loaded with bombs) and keep remember we didn't had any night vision equipment at that time,however back to the story: the Iranian F-14A was flying about 25000 to 26000 ft and the Iraqi MIGs was about 30000 ft, Now he fired that legend missile and hit the formation leader "as we understand from the video" and shot down all of them in one shot! But guess what here? in the next morning they have found the three aircraft wreckage on kharg island (just loved to say wow) from 30000 ft about 50 miles from being shot by one hit bring all these aircraft on very small island NO one of them fallen in the sea all of them on the ground (but if you ask me why there is no one fallen in the water the scientific explanation and physicist is to be confirmed kills) while no picture or video or even SN of one of these aircraft!
Image
Enjoy watching this fabricated story,
[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sya-9XDpfiM&feature=youtu.be&t=19m18s[/YouTube]

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2014, 00:39
by old.iraqi.air.force
ATFS_Crash wrote:I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible

Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23

Re: Re:

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2015, 01:22
by oldiaf
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
huggy wrote:I don't recall that,... but I do seem to recall an EF-111 that was trying to evade an Iraqi F-1 during the war, and the F-1 hit the ground.

Dear huggy,
There is no Iraqi Mirage F-1 hit the ground in gulf war 1991 desert storm, actually the Iraqi Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF shot down US EF-111A s/n 66-0023 on January 17-1991 but US claimed that EF-111A s/n 66-0023 was shot down on the 13/14th February, nearly one month after and this not truth, i can guess you relied on media sources such as history channel desert storm dogfights TV program, which is totally wrong, however the story below by the official former Iraqi air force facebook page.
Colonel pilot Nafie Najim Al-Jubouri.
From The former Iraqi Air Force
Born 1964 – KIA 2003
He graduated from the Greek Air Academy in 1986, he was one of the best pilot student at that time, he achieved golden sword award for high skilled performance, he had more than 1300 Flight hours until 2003.
Colonel pilot Nafie Al-Jubouri was just first lieutenant pilot in the Gulf War "Desert storm" who managed to attain one of the aerial victories by the Iraqi Air Force in his Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF, after midnight of January 17-1991 exactly at 0306 AM, Colonel Nafie scrambled and took off from Saad air base better to know H 2 west of Iraq, flying his Mirage F-1 on the first night of the war in order to root out and shoot-down Coalition aircraft bombing Iraq, when he received target info about U.S EF-111A northwest H 2, the sky of Iraq was totally covered by white lines of fired missiles due to the air combat, And coalition F-15s formations was just in every five miles around, but the Eagles was exhausted in that moment because the Iraqi FoxBat was chasing them, however Colonel pilot Nafie across the darkness of that night with flashing explosions on the ground as well as in the sky and headed directly to intercept the target, and just a few minutes later the U.S EF-111A appeared on his radar screen, after identified the target he confirmed to the Ground Control it's enemy aircraft and request permission to open fire, seconds later he got the permission and simultaneously locked the target and fired single missile type Matra 530 directly toward to the U.S EF-111A, s/n 66-0023, the F-111 tried to Jamming and avoid the missile, but the Matra 530 hit the F-111 in the cockpit sent it to the ground.
RIP to all Warriors fall in that conflict.

This same pilot killed in 2003 war while trying to get airborne with his Mirage from Balad AB but hit high tension wires or some says the external fuel tank hit was not placed well and hit the ground and exploded

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 16:47
by mixelflick
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
ATFS_Crash wrote:I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible

Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


VERY interesting. I'm open to the possibility our gov't doesn't always tell us the truth? :doh:

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 16:47
by mixelflick
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
ATFS_Crash wrote:I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible

Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


VERY interesting. I'm open to the possibility our gov't doesn't always tell us the truth? :doh:

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 17:17
by oldiaf
This alleged downing of F-16 by Syrian MiG-23 is to Israeli AF not USAF

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 05:22
by arian
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


Old Iraqi Air Force, as usual, is recycling stuff he reads on Arab defense forums on here. Thus stuff is fake garbage.

In the pictures he shows you can't tell what the aircraft is. It could be anything, from any conflict or scenario imaginable. No evidence of any F-16 involved.

It becomes even more obvious that this is fake since in the same source he got these pictures from, there's also this other sequence of pictures claiming an F-16 shot down:

Image

The aircraft is very clearly not an F-16, but a MiG-21 or Su-17

Even more funny is this sequence supposedly showing a group of MiG-23s shooting down an A-4
Image

Take anything OIAF says with a mountain full of salt.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 05:34
by arian
Here's some more fakes from the same source: supposed F-15 shot down (looks like the HUD shot is from an Su-25 and the F-15 is photoshoped in)

Image

Here is where the pictures first appeared, and the people in the forum recognized them as fakes: http://forums.airforce.ru/holodnaya-voi ... ografii-7/

A couple of years later they were picked up by Arab military forums, and now they ended up here on F-16.net forum.

Confirmed fakes.

PS: This is the second time OIAF has posted fake photos claiming them to be something else.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 09:59
by oldiaf
While the alleged F-16 photo clearly shows no F-16 ... The plane could be anything but most probably a Su-22 or MiG-23 or even a Tornado ... The last photo of the F-15 .. Well I think there is one F-15 in it ..and remember Israel denies these alleged downing except for an F-15 that have been heavily damaged by MiG-21 I think that happened in 1985

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 12:18
by arian
oldiaf wrote:While the alleged F-16 photo clearly shows no F-16 ... The plane could be anything but most probably a Su-22 or MiG-23 or even a Tornado ... The last photo of the F-15 .. Well I think there is one F-15 in it ..and remember Israel denies these alleged downing except for an F-15 that have been heavily damaged by MiG-21 I think that happened in 1985


They are all fakes created by a known Russian science fiction writers who spreads these things around. The same source created this other supposed F-111 being shot down, using the same Su-25 HUD display as in the photo above:
Image

All fakes. None of this stuff happened at all.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 12:35
by oldiaf
arian wrote:
oldiaf wrote:While the alleged F-16 photo clearly shows no F-16 ... The plane could be anything but most probably a Su-22 or MiG-23 or even a Tornado ... The last photo of the F-15 .. Well I think there is one F-15 in it ..and remember Israel denies these alleged downing except for an F-15 that have been heavily damaged by MiG-21 I think that happened in 1985


They are all fakes created by a known Russian science fiction writers who spreads these things around. The same source created this other supposed F-111 being shot down, using the same Su-25 HUD display as in the photo above:
Image

All fakes. None of this stuff happened at all.

In DS 1991 there was an incident of alleged EF-111 downing by Iraqi Mirage F.1 - the aircraft listed by USAF as crashed in Feb 13 1991 due to unknown reason over the Syrian air space probably DEA . The Iraqis claimed the plane downed by Mirage from Iraqi squadron 79 piloted by Lt. Nafii Najim on the first night of the war Jan 17 1991

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 14:37
by old.iraqi.air.force
arian wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


Old Iraqi Air Force, as usual, is recycling stuff he reads on Arab defense forums on here. Thus stuff is fake garbage.

In the pictures he shows you can't tell what the aircraft is. It could be anything, from any conflict or scenario imaginable. No evidence of any F-16 involved.

It becomes even more obvious that this is fake since in the same source he got these pictures from, there's also this other sequence of pictures claiming an F-16 shot down:

The aircraft is very clearly not an F-16, but a MiG-21 or Su-17

Even more funny is this sequence supposedly showing a group of MiG-23s shooting down an A-4

Take anything OIAF says with a mountain full of salt.

arian wrote:Here's some more fakes from the same source: supposed F-15 shot down (looks like the HUD shot is from an Su-25 and the F-15 is photoshoped in)
Here is where the pictures first appeared, and the people in the forum recognized them as fakes: http://forums.airforce.ru/holodnaya-voi ... ografii-7/

A couple of years later they were picked up by Arab military forums, and now they ended up here on F-16.net forum.

Confirmed fakes.

PS: This is the second time OIAF has posted fake photos claiming them to be something else

Take anything OIAF says with a mountain full of salt


I can see you're upset and whiny of me just because i post this picture (as it source claim this was Israeli F-16A)..
You have the right to objection or refute the source and explain your point of view "and make sure it will be welcome by everyone here" but condition to respect the other, things are not good here that you blame on me "looks like i made claim of that air victory..!!"
First I am not reading Arab military forums and i got the shared photo by someone and when i did google it i found this source talk about the incident (So if you have any speak go talk to him not to me) because i didn't claim this victory anyway and didn't own forums to upload same these stuff (therefore you shocked at the wrong wall).
The second thing is, on internet forums you may differ with others people on kind of subject, so it's your chance to proof to other user what is the right and what is the wrong (and we will be grateful to you) because we all want to benefit from each other to be on the right way.
At the end i will keep my level and not slither to reply on all what you said, but again if you have objection on these claims fell free to reply on this source not me
Good luck
The source
http://samlib.ru/s/shitjakow_andrej_aleksandrowich/warinlie.shtml

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 15:51
by oldiaf
arian wrote:
oldiaf wrote:While the alleged F-16 photo clearly shows no F-16 ... The plane could be anything but most probably a Su-22 or MiG-23 or even a Tornado ... The last photo of the F-15 .. Well I think there is one F-15 in it ..and remember Israel denies these alleged downing except for an F-15 that have been heavily damaged by MiG-21 I think that happened in 1985


They are all fakes created by a known Russian science fiction writers who spreads these things around. The same source created this other supposed F-111 being shot down, using the same Su-25 HUD display as in the photo above:
Image

All fakes. None of this stuff happened at all.

Those Russian science fiction writers try every thing to change the bad picture of their failed aircrafts .. As proof they claim the 2 F-16s downed by SAMs in DS 19 Jan 1991 during package Q were downed by MiG-23s !! Even the Iraqis didn't make such claim , in addition the video feed of these F-16s are on youtube

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 16:11
by oldiaf
Since we are talked about Su-22 .. A question for old.Iraqi.air.force. : were the Su-22s armed with AA missiles during Iraq-Iran war ?

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 23:44
by arian
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
I can see you're upset and whiny of me just because i post this picture (as it source claim this was Israeli F-16A)..
You have the right to objection or refute the source and explain your point of view "and make sure it will be welcome by everyone here" but condition to respect the other, things are not good here that you blame on me "looks like i made claim of that air victory..!!"
First I am not reading Arab military forums and i got the shared photo by someone and when i did google it i found this source talk about the incident (So if you have any speak go talk to him not to me) because i didn't claim this victory anyway and didn't own forums to upload same these stuff (therefore you shocked at the wrong wall).
The second thing is, on internet forums you may differ with others people on kind of subject, so it's your chance to proof to other user what is the right and what is the wrong (and we will be grateful to you) because we all want to benefit from each other to be on the right way.
At the end i will keep my level and not slither to reply on all what you said, but again if you have objection on these claims fell free to reply on this source not me
Good luck
The source
http://samlib.ru/s/shitjakow_andrej_aleksandrowich/warinlie.shtml


I'm not upset at all, don't worry. Its simply that its obvious what you do here on F-16.net, since every word you've said here can be traced back to Arab military forums (where 90% of what is said is complete fiction). The part where I do make it "personal", and where you should take it personally, is the way you portray your source of information, as if you're a "Mirage pilot" or "know former Iraqi pilots" etc. I.e. you try to add an air of legitimacy to what you're saying, and people who unfortunately can't verify what you're saying, take it as a given.

These fake pictures are simply the latest example. At least this time, you didn't spend 3 pages insisting your fake pictures represented what you claimed they did, like you did last time around (Iranian F-4 pictures), and at least admitted they are fakes.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2015, 23:45
by arian
oldiaf wrote:In DS 1991 there was an incident of alleged EF-111 downing by Iraqi Mirage F.1 - the aircraft listed by USAF as crashed in Feb 13 1991 due to unknown reason over the Syrian air space probably DEA . The Iraqis claimed the plane downed by Mirage from Iraqi squadron 79 piloted by Lt. Nafii Najim on the first night of the war Jan 17 1991


The picture is a fake. In case you didn't realize. From the same source as all the pictures posted here: fakes.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 00:06
by oldiaf
arian wrote:
oldiaf wrote:In DS 1991 there was an incident of alleged EF-111 downing by Iraqi Mirage F.1 - the aircraft listed by USAF as crashed in Feb 13 1991 due to unknown reason over the Syrian air space probably DEA . The Iraqis claimed the plane downed by Mirage from Iraqi squadron 79 piloted by Lt. Nafii Najim on the first night of the war Jan 17 1991


The picture is a fake. In case you didn't realize. From the same source as all the pictures posted here: fakes.

No I am not talking about the pictures

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 03:35
by old.iraqi.air.force
arian wrote:I'm not upset at all, don't worry. Its simply that its obvious what you do here on F-16.net, since every word you've said here can be traced back to Arab military forums (where 90% of what is said is complete fiction).


Well since the last time i entered discussion with you on MIG-23 subject got admonish from some good people to ignore your comments (Once not to lower my level to your knowledge, Second not to waste my time with someone seeking a controversy to prove himself anyway) However now you allege that every word I've said here can be traced back to Arab military forums, so can you show where is that words? (because my comment limit to a very short sentence: Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23) and that's was all, so does that all what they said on Arab military forums?!
If does then I am not making a fake clams because this is what the picture tell and what the source explain for (and again i can't do anything for you, if you have any objection and you find yourself such a professional analyzer go ahead and discuss this issue with source not with me).
You said that 90% of what Arab military forums is complete fiction (which is mean you can read Arabic very well) clearly you have read all what they wrote and you given 90% an error rate (great!), then whey don't you discuss all these fiction with them on their forums and refute all slanders since you can read Arabic and you did check all these forums!
To me honestly i didn't read or even see what they said at all..
But tell you what? you really have a good talent because you were able to read second language which is even different one from the another (where Arab countries speak different Iraqi it has differences from Jordan and UAE or Algeria..etc) and with all that you were able to read and good understood and analyze what they said and where is the error!

arian wrote:The part where I do make it "personal", and where you should take it personally, is the way you portray your source of information, as if you're a "Mirage pilot" or "know former Iraqi pilots" etc. I.e. you try to add an air of legitimacy to what you're saying, and people who unfortunately can't verify what you're saying, take it as a given.

These fake pictures are simply the latest example. At least this time, you didn't spend 3 pages insisting your fake pictures represented what you claimed they did, like you did last time around (Iranian F-4 pictures), and at least admitted they are fakes.

No worry you can deliver your question to Major General Alwan al-Abousi about me through any one of journalists "which they interview him or send him some questions frequently" because he know I participating on f-16.net
Regarding to F-4 vs MIG-23 we have done of this subject whether you were convinced and unconvinced makes no difference and in next time try to select your words carefully with the other user at least to establish starting level to yourself.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 04:23
by arian
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Regarding to F-4 vs MIG-23 we have done of this subject whether you were convinced and unconvinced makes no difference and in next time try to select your words carefully with the other user at least to establish starting level to yourself.


You still don't know when to quit. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll see each other again next time you post pictures pretending they are something else, or make claims you know are false.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 05:00
by tomcooper
arian wrote:They are all fakes created by a known Russian science fiction writers who spreads these things around. The same source created this other supposed F-111 being shot down, using the same Su-25 HUD display as in the photo above..

All fakes. None of this stuff happened at all.

...and all are based on a gun-camera photo actually taken by an Indian MiG-21BI ('Bison') shooting down a Pakistani Br.1150 Atlantique (c/n 33), over the Run of Kutch, on 10 August 1999:

Image

(Gun-camera photos taken by Indian AF MiG-21s are easy to recognize by the IFF-antenna on the left side, in foreground; i.e. they are always showing that antenna plus the pitot tube, not only the latter.)

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 05:03
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23
Certainly not. The HUD-symbology of the MiG-23 looks entirely different - as should be known to somebody claiming for himself to be a 'former Iraqi Mirage pilot'...

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 05:07
by tomcooper
arian wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


Old Iraqi Air Force, as usual, is recycling stuff he reads on Arab defense forums on here. Thus stuff is fake garbage.

...there's also this other sequence of pictures claiming an F-16 shot down:

Image

The aircraft is very clearly not an F-16, but a MiG-21 or Su-17
The aircraft in question is actually an Egyptian Su-20 - indeed, one of three from No. 55 Squadron EAF shot down by Israeli Mirages over the so-called 'Deversoir Gap' (Israeli counter-crossing of the Suez Canal), on 16 October 1973.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 17:27
by sergei
LOL

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 21:25
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23
Certainly not. The HUD-symbology of the MiG-23 looks entirely different - as should be known to somebody claiming for himself to be a 'former Iraqi Mirage pilot'...

Does pilots should know each aircraft and it's HUD even if they have it at their AF?
And as i know you know how x-IrAF F-1's feel allergy of soviet aircraft, so perhaps if you post F-111 HUD photo most U.S pilots won't be able to recognize it "except who operate on it"..

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 23:03
by sergei
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23
Certainly not. The HUD-symbology of the MiG-23 looks entirely different - as should be known to somebody claiming for himself to be a 'former Iraqi Mirage pilot'...

Does pilots should know each aircraft and it's HUD even if they have it at their AF?
And as i know you know how x-IrAF F-1's feel allergy of soviet aircraft, so perhaps if you post F-111 HUD photo most U.S pilots won't be able to recognize it "except who operate on it"..


Mig-23 HUD

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 23:12
by sergei
Su-25

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2015, 01:17
by arian
Thanks Tom and Sergei for laying this to rest. The photos aren't just fakes, but they appear to be from Israeli gun cameras instead of Syrian.

You're right Sergei, it's from MiG-21 HUD not Su-25. I got confused by the presence of what appeared to be two pitot tubes (but what is actually just one).

PS: Tom, what happened to your ACIG site? We want it back!

Re: RE: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2015, 07:39
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Does pilots should know each aircraft and it's HUD even if they have it at their AF?
OK. Let's ignore the fact that most of the original IrAF-cadre flying the first batch of Mirage F.1EQs MUST know this, because they previously flew MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Let's say they 'do not 'must know'.

BUT: YOU - as somebody claiming to be a former Iraqi Air Force Mirage-pilot - should recognize HUD-symbology of a Mirage.

Yet, you declared it for 'MiG-23'.

Enough said.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2015, 07:40
by tomcooper
arian wrote:Thanks Tom and Sergei for laying this to rest. The photos aren't just fakes, but they appear to be from Israeli gun cameras instead of Syrian.
Indeed.

BTW, the one showing that Egyptian Su-20 is actually consisting of two sequences: two stills are showing that Su-20, and two are showing the downing of a MiG-21F-13 at an unknown date.

PS: Tom, what happened to your ACIG site? We want it back!
Thanks and nothing happened to the website (and forum).

It's perfectly online and running.

'Just' having a new URL - and that since at least three years: http://www.acig.info

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2015, 08:20
by arian
tomcooper wrote:Thanks and nothing happened to the website (and forum).

It's perfectly online and running.

'Just' having a new URL - and that since at least three years: http://www.acig.info


For some reason the link provided by Google's search results doesn't work. That's why I thought your site was down.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2015, 21:46
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Does pilots should know each aircraft and it's HUD even if they have it at their AF?
OK. Let's ignore the fact that most of the original IrAF-cadre flying the first batch of Mirage F.1EQs MUST know this, because they previously flew MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Let's say they 'do not 'must know'.

None of Iraqi MIG-23's pilot qualified to Mirage F1s at all, since the aircraft entered the service till 9 April 2003.

tomcooper wrote:BUT: YOU - as somebody claiming to be a former Iraqi Air Force Mirage-pilot - should recognize HUD-symbology of a Mirage.

Yet, you declared it for 'MiG-23'.

Enough said.

While the "Mig23 vs F-16 HUD photo" doesn't show the closing speed or artificial-Horizon or TD and STPTI therefore can't be identify as a Mirage HUD-symbology!, with all that and even so, you made gross mistake as somebody always claiming he making extensive research! because you can't compared Iraqi Mirage EQs with old Israeli Mirages HUDs, because Israeli Mirages has the old system and can not be compared even with F-1C and Kuwaiti and Jordan or Greek F1s because it has the old system as well and differs from all Iraqi F.1EQs, all in all Iraqi F.1EQs HUD similar to Mirage 2000. So i think if you try to post that HUD photo even on French air force forum (showing no details as it is) they won't be able to ID the type of the aircraft.
Fair enough?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2015, 23:07
by arian
You keep digging yourself further.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2015, 06:59
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:While the "Mig23 vs F-16 HUD photo" doesn't show the closing speed or artificial-Horizon or TD and STPTI therefore can't be identify as a Mirage HUD-symbology!, with all that and even so, you made gross mistake as somebody always claiming he making extensive research! because you can't compared Iraqi Mirage EQs with old Israeli Mirages HUDs, because Israeli Mirages has the old system and can not be compared even with F-1C and Kuwaiti and Jordan or Greek F1s because it has the old system as well and differs from all Iraqi F.1EQs, all in all Iraqi F.1EQs HUD similar to Mirage 2000. So i think if you try to post that HUD photo even on French air force forum (showing no details as it is) they won't be able to ID the type of the aircraft.
Fair enough?
Not the least, then this is a sea of nonsense....

Why do you have to do this to yourself?

Admit it: you're an enthusiast, curious to record IrAF history. Nothing more and nothing less. That would be 'fair enough'.

Declaring yourself a 'former Iraqi Mirage pilot' and then making such primitive mistakes, plus babbling such idiocies like here only makes you laughable.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2015, 22:50
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:Not the least, then this is a sea of nonsense....

Why do you have to do this to yourself?

Admit it: you're an enthusiast, curious to record IrAF history. Nothing more and nothing less. That would be 'fair enough'.

Declaring yourself a 'former Iraqi Mirage pilot' and then making such primitive mistakes, plus babbling such idiocies like here only makes you laughable.


Your comment reflect how loser you're.
I will not lower my level to yours anyway. But let me remind you who is keeping babbling such idiocies here and the one who make himself laughable, first go check out on internet how people talk about your reliability and your Knowledge and then back to estimate your self, you will find these words apply on you.
Something i have to admit to you here, know what? i didn't reply or talk to the correct person from the beginning thought i was answer a real author but yeah take look to your chosen word such as some enthusiast younger on aviation forums where It doesn't take them a long time to show their low quality, However people can read and estimating how is right here.
But one more thing if you strongly believe that I am enthusiast curious to record IrAF history then why do you bother yourself and care for my comments? But you're deeply upset because you're %100 sure more than anyone here that I am truly an Iraqi pilot from old IrAF and unveiled of your marketing fabrication and your alleged personal such Brig Gen Ahmad Sadik..etc so you try harder to run around this point (like to prove my self to you I'm x-IrAF pilot) Ok this is not hard and simple (but condition) 1.Ensure my children's and my family and as well my relatives class one "parents, sisters, brothers ..etc" and my safety from Iranian militias in Iraq. And if any member of my family or relatives exposure to threat or killing by the militias in Iraq it will be your responsibly and evacuation of everyone out the country and cover the rest of their life (deal?).
U.S.A is the most powerful country and rule the world and it's pilots protect themselves privacy from public, so I'm Iraqi and many of our friends has been killed on Iranian militias hands and you wont me post my log book or my photos to prove my self for you, are you serious?!
First better to read this before asking an Iraqi pilot to ID himself.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/iranian-revenge-iraqi-air-force-pilots/story?id=12298641

And this photos and video will help to higher your knowledge to know what is the difference between Iraqi Mirages HUDs compared to the Israeli.
Israeli Mirages HUD
Image

Kuwait, Jordan, Greek Mirage F-1C HUDs
Image

Iraqi Mirage F-1EQs similar to this HUD


Now ask this question to your self..
tomcooper wrote:Why do you have to do this to yourself?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 05:58
by tomcooper
More nonsense.

OK, final question:

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:And this photos and video will help to higher your knowledge to know what is the difference between Iraqi Mirages HUDs compared to the Israeli.
And? Why did you then declare a still from a HUD-camera of a Mirage IIICJ for 'MiG-23'?

:P

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2015, 15:36
by piston
oldiaf wrote:Those Russian science fiction writers try every thing to change the bad picture of their failed aircrafts .. As proof they claim the 2 F-16s downed by SAMs in DS 19 Jan 1991 during package Q were downed by MiG-23s !! Even the Iraqis didn't make such claim , in addition the video feed of these F-16s are on youtube


Where?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2015, 15:43
by oldiaf
piston wrote:
oldiaf wrote:Those Russian science fiction writers try every thing to change the bad picture of their failed aircrafts .. As proof they claim the 2 F-16s downed by SAMs in DS 19 Jan 1991 during package Q were downed by MiG-23s !! Even the Iraqis didn't make such claim , in addition the video feed of these F-16s are on youtube


Where?

Where what ? The video feed from F-16 that evaded 6 SAMs ...you can hear clearly the voice of other pilot confirming one othe aircrafts was hit :
http://youtu.be/2uh4yMAx2UA

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2015, 15:56
by piston
...is video feed? (bold section)...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2015, 16:10
by old.iraqi.air.force
oldiaf wrote:Where what ? The video feed from F-16 that evaded 6 SAMs ...you can hear clearly the voice of other pilot confirming one othe aircrafts was hit :
http://youtu.be/2uh4yMAx2UA

No he didn't got hit, but i think the formation leader ask (somebody got hit?) then the defending f-16 pilot request to leave target area.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2015, 16:28
by oldiaf
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
oldiaf wrote:Where what ? The video feed from F-16 that evaded 6 SAMs ...you can hear clearly the voice of other pilot confirming one othe aircrafts was hit :
http://youtu.be/2uh4yMAx2UA

No he didn't got hit, but i think the formation leader ask (somebody got hit?) then the defending f-16 pilot request to leave target area.

Yes

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2015, 16:28
by oldiaf
Here is another video for the same mission from another F-16

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 11:08
by nikolaos
Back to the original theme of this thread I understand from the various postings, that the ratio in the title is not right , so
what analogy would be closer to the historical truth, can somebody of you, who obviously have extensive archives about this conflict, elaborate on this subject?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 12:21
by tomcooper
Correct explanation was provided in this thread already seven years ago (see page 1), by 'RoAF':
RoAF wrote:As for Tom Cooper from ACIG.org, in the book mentioned in the first post he listed ALL Iranian CLAIMS to date for what they are - claims, he didn't pretend they were all confirmed victories. So far only 50 give or take are confirmed, as sundowner said. Anyway, researching the Iran-Irak war from the 80's is extremly difficult, no wonder there are mistakes.


Similarly, when ADM Fred Lewis held a speech about F-14 durign the 'Tomcat Sunset' ceremony (retirement of the F-14 from service with the USN), back in September 2006, he used precisely the same description: 164 claims - and not something like '164 confirmed kills'.

And that's all that's presently possible to say with any dose of reliability.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 15:01
by oldiaf
This is an illustration for successful Iraqi Intercept missions against a pair of Iranian F-14s by 4 Mirage F.1EQ that resulted in the downing of one of the F-14s in 1988.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 15:49
by nikolaos
tomcooper wrote:Correct explanation was provided in this thread already seven years ago (see page 1), by 'RoAF':
RoAF wrote:As for Tom Cooper from ACIG.org, in the book mentioned in the first post he listed ALL Iranian CLAIMS to date for what they are - claims, he didn't pretend they were all confirmed victories. So far only 50 give or take are confirmed, as sundowner said. Anyway, researching the Iran-Irak war from the 80's is extremly difficult, no wonder there are mistakes.


Similarly, when ADM Fred Lewis held a speech about F-14 durign the 'Tomcat Sunset' ceremony (retirement of the F-14 from service with the USN), back in September 2006, he used precisely the same description: 164 claims - and not something like '164 confirmed kills'.

And that's all that's presently possible to say with any dose of reliability.


What about the loss side? I dont believe that only one F-14 was lost or claimed lost, so what can be said for this part of the equation?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 16:05
by nikolaos
Oldiaf can you be more specific about this interception? Can you give more details?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 16:19
by tomcooper
nikolaos wrote:What about the loss side? I dont believe that only one F-14 was lost or claimed lost, so what can be said for this part of the equation?
From memory:

- 2 in 1981 (to Mirages), plus 1 (MIM-23B I-HAWK, i.e. 'own goal')
- 1 in 1982 (to Mirages, during high-alt escort mission over Iraq)
- 1 in 1984 (to MiG-23s, although certain characters in Tehran are now trying to explain it as 'collision with anti-ship missile'... :roll: )
- 2 in 1987 (another 'own goal' by HAWKs, and another...can't recall what right now, perhaps a MiG-23).

The 'two kills' claim by Iraqis for the last day of the war (see above), was actually an F-4E. It only once happened they've shot down two F-14s, and that was in 1981, when Mirages entered service for the first time.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 16:51
by oldiaf
nikolaos wrote:Oldiaf can you be more specific about this interception? Can you give more details?

April 1988 on a mission to deter the F-14s from intercepting Mirage sorties to strike oil export fascilities in south of Iran .. 2 were used for decoys to bring the F-14s closer to the 2 Interceptors

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 21:52
by old.iraqi.air.force
Pilots who truly achieved air victories vs Iranian F-14 during the war.
Capt. Mokhalad AbdulKarim Mirage F1
Capt. Sabah Motlag Mirage F1
Capt. Khalaf Ahmed Hussein Mirage F1
Capt. Nasir Ghazi Mirage F1
Capt. Sabah Al-Jarallah Mirage F1
Capt. Mohammed Saleem Mirage F1 (the same pilot on 24 Jan 1991)
Capt. (Withheld for privacy) MIG-23ML (defected Iranian F-14).
Capt. Nawfal Shaaban MIG-23ML North West Bandar Ganaveh
Capt. Captain Mohsen Sebti MIG-23MS
Capt. Aladdin al-Khafaji MIG-21
Capt. Hassan Bashir MIG-21 (most popular known S/N 681)
These pilots who received medals of courage for this victories
Other incidents such damaged or caused to crashed to Iranian F-14 received praise letters only, which is mean they couldn't confirm their victories in somehow.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 22:08
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:
nikolaos wrote:Oldiaf can you be more specific about this interception? Can you give more details?

April 1988 on a mission to deter the F-14s from intercepting Mirage sorties to strike oil export fascilities in south of Iran .. 2 were used for decoys to bring the F-14s closer to the 2 Interceptors

Sorry, I really do not recall any IRIAF F-14s lost to IrAF fighters in April that year.

My memory might not be the best in regards of names. Sometimes I mix numbers or dates too. I'm both much too lazy and too busy but to search through my files right now, and I'm no machine... But, if there is one thing I'm meanwhile 100% sure, then that the IRIAF lost exactly 6 F-14s shot down in air combats during that war: 3 by Mirages, 2 by MiG-23s, one by 'unknown' (possibly by another F-14A, at least according to IRIAF documentation) - and none of these in April 1988.

Few additional ones were lost to other reasons, but not in air combat (as mentioned above).

Mind: I'm neither Iranian nor Iraqi, and have no reasons to hide anything for something like 'pride' or similar. If there was a loss and there is evidence for it, I'll confirm it.

If you like, we can discuss every single air combat of that war - from names of involved IRIAF crews (and most of involved IrAF crews), down to serial numbers of missiles IRIAF fighters have fired (if they fired any) at Iraqis. Especially so in the case of Iranian F-14s, which are a sort of my 'speciality': here we can talk about anything, from Jamshid's gun-kill of an IrAF An-2 on 25 August 1980 or Attaie/Rostam-Poor's Su-20-kill with AIM-54A serial No. 5010x (last digit withheld with purpose) on 17 September 1980 (downed Iraqi was Fadhil Abdul-Fatah Abdul Rahman) to... I think it was Hazin... or was it Ghanei...? - who flew the last F-14 shot down by Iraqis...

But, and despite earlier claims (even some Iranian 'confirmations'), there is no evidence for any kind of an IRIAF F-14A shot down by Mirages in April 1988.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 08:02
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:...
Capt. (Withheld for privacy) MIG-23ML (defected Iranian F-14).
...
These pilots who received medals of courage for this victories
...

So, this guy received a 'medal of courage' - for spoiling what could have become the biggest intelligence coup of Iraq ever...?

:doh:

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 13:01
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:...
Capt. (Withheld for privacy) MIG-23ML (defected Iranian F-14).
...
These pilots who received medals of courage for this victories
...

So, this guy received a 'medal of courage' - for spoiling what could have become the biggest intelligence coup of Iraq ever...?

:doh:

Wasn't pilot mistake at all, the fault lies on the air defense and the ground control who give him the order to intercept and fire the target, at the end both of them "AD&GC" disclaimer of responsibility because the F-14 defected day or tow day before the agreed date. Therefore the pilot were doing his job and defending Iraqi airspace.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 13:23
by tomcooper
I know all the details. Found it rather ironic the IrAF treated a failure with 'Medal for Courage'. That's nearly the same the USN did with Will Rogers for shooting down an Airbuss with 280 civilians on board... :roll:

Speaks 'volumes' for the worth of other such decorations...

(Particularly the MiG-21-related science fiction... with exception of Khafaji, of course - though he didn't get decorated for claiming an F-14: that's a product of your imagination.)

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 22:06
by nikolaos
tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:
nikolaos wrote:Oldiaf can you be more specific about this interception? Can you give more details?



If you like, we can discuss every single air combat of that war - from names of involved IRIAF crews (and most of involved IrAF crews), down to serial numbers of missiles IRIAF fighters have fired (if they fired any) at Iraqis. Especially so in the case of Iranian F-14s, which are a sort of my 'speciality': here we can talk about anything, from Jamshid's gun-kill of an IrAF An-2 on 25 August 1980 or Attaie/Rostam-Poor's Su-20-kill with AIM-54A serial No. 5010x (last digit withheld with purpose) on 17 September 1980 (downed Iraqi was Fadhil Abdul-Fatah Abdul Rahman) to... I think it was Hazin... or was it Ghanei...? - who flew the last F-14 shot down by Iraqis...

.


It would be great if such a discussion could start,however I do not think that such kind of things could be posted so easily, were these details supposed to be hidden deep in each country's archives?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 03:41
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:I know all the details. Found it rather ironic the IrAF treated a failure with 'Medal for Courage'. That's nearly the same the USN did with Will Rogers for shooting down an Airbuss with 280 civilians on board...

He received the Medal for Courage in 1989 after the end of the war and after the end of investigation (became clear that wasn't pilot mistake and he was follow the orders) Minister of Defense who awarded him the medal because the military court considered that he deserves it.

tomcooper wrote:Speaks 'volumes' for the worth of other such decorations...

(Particularly the MiG-21-related science fiction... with exception of Khafaji, of course - though he didn't get decorated for claiming an F-14: that's a product of your imagination.)

My imagination? this is one of the most popular air to air engagements happened during Iraq-Iran war, when Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 67 Sq who climb from low altitude and behind the Iranian F-14's to shot it down near Zubaydat area 100 km north east Amarah city. For this incident held a press conference showed on Baghdad TV, followed by Capt. Hassan Bashir victory.
So, no imagination in my list based on reliable source and experience..
There is some Iranian F-14's got damaged or even flew into the water out maneuver i didn't talk about it (specially that one near Bandar Khomeini) and you know about it more than I am.. Therefore i decided to speak only about the list above.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 07:44
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
(Particularly the MiG-21-related science fiction... with exception of Khafaji, of course - though he didn't get decorated for claiming an F-14: that's a product of your imagination.)

My imagination?
...sigh... certainly not mine.

... this is one of the most popular air to air engagements happened during Iraq-Iran war, when Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 67 Sq who climb from low altitude and behind the Iranian F-14's to shot it down near Zubaydat area 100 km north east Amarah city.
...from No. 47 Squadron (there was no No. 67, or at least no 'No. 67 Squadron equipped with MiG-21s') and seems they all got so excited they misidentified a pair of F-4s for an F-14... (would make up for the correct number of fins they saw)...

For this incident held a press conference showed on Baghdad TV, followed by Capt. Hassan Bashir victory.
Press-conference is no evidence for a kill.

...anyway, much more important questions are such like:

- When (date) should have Sebti claimed his F-14 kill?

- When (date) should have Nawfal scored his F-14 kill?

- Where did Nawfal serve (i.e. what did he fly) before joining No. 73 Squadron?

- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

- Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 17:37
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:from No. 47 Squadron (there was no No. 67, or at least no 'No. 67 Squadron equipped with MiG-21s') and seems they all got so excited they misidentified a pair of F-4s for an F-14... (would make up for the correct number of fins they saw)


My fault i typing 67 (apology) 67 Squadron belong to MIG-23s Nasiriyah AB, Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 17 Squadron MIG-21MF Abu Ubaidah Airbase (deployed in 1978 till 1983 they moved to H3).
tomcooper wrote:Press-conference is no evidence for a kill.

They did show the MIG-21 gunsight firing the F-14 to the Journalists some of them was Spanish (hopefully anyone of them if still alive till this day can show this picture).

tomcooper wrote:...anyway, much more important questions are such like:

- When (date) should have Sebti claimed his F-14 kill?

I have to check with them.

tomcooper wrote:- When (date) should have Nawfal scored his F-14 kill?

- Where did Nawfal serve (i.e. what did he fly) before joining No. 73 Squadron?

- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)


11 Sept 1983 At 7:00 AM they moved from Nasiriyah AB to Shaibah AB and stand by there till 9:00 AM when the strike aircraft (x4 Su-22s) took-off to attack their target at Bandar Ganaveh, these MIG-23MFs lead by Capt.Najim aldean Shabib and Capt.Nawfal Shaaban took-off right behind them to escort the strike package from x4 Iranian F-14's were patrolling the area from time to time between Bahregan and Kharg Island and Bandar Ganaveh. The MIG-23's separate the F-14s patrol and engage with it and brought one down using R23R missile.
This incident also reported in one of the Air Defense Journal (and confirmed both Iranian pilots KIA).
-Capt.Nawfal Shaaban was MIG-21 and MIG-23MF and then ML (that's why my first though he achieved this victory on ML).
-Other details on him cannot be on public for some reason.

tomcooper wrote:- Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji?

If you mean relatives "no they are not". But Khaffaji is clan title you may find many people have the same title such as al-Tikriti, for example,

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 18:53
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

The list above for people i know for sure who received Medal of Courage achieving for this victory.

-Regarding to the AN-2 on 25 August 1980 Major General Alwan al-Abousi confirmed that the plane forced to land in Iran by Iranian AF (the plan was civilian under registration S/N YI-AIQ belong to Skydive "Sport Parachute Club") later all the skydivers with the plan released and back to Iraq.
-On 19 Sept 1980 Major. Nubar Abdul Hamid al-Hamdani Squadron leader of 44Sq Su-22 Kirkuk AB assigned in recon mission over Serpil Zahab ( being shot down by anti-aircraft guns).
-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron, Shuaiba AB x4 Su-22s assigned in mission to attack Bandar Khomeini, the formation intercepted by two Iranian F-14's (the formation lead by No1. Major Faisal Habbo, No.2 First Lieutenant. Sabah Saad Hussein Al-Jader, No.3 Capt. Miesar Asuad Farhan, No.4 First Lieutenant. Naji Ahmed Abd) the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile and chased the remaining Su-22s till Al-Faw city causing damage in gun fire to the formation leader aircraft. No2 and No4 eject safely and captured by Iranian and appeared on Iranian television but they died because of torture..

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 18:57
by oldiaf
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
tomcooper wrote:- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

The list above for people i know for sure who received Medal of Courage achieving for this victory.

-Regarding to the AN-2 on 25 August 1980 Major General Alwan al-Abousi confirmed that the plane forced to land in Iran by Iranian AF (the plan was civilian under registration S/N YI-AIQ belong to Skydive "Sport Parachute Club") later all the skydivers with the plan released and back to Iraq.
-On 19 Sept 1980 Major. Nubar Abdul Hamid al-Hamdani Squadron leader of 44Sq Su-22 Kirkuk AB assigned in recon mission over Serpil Zahab ( being shot down by anti-aircraft guns).
-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron, Shuaiba AB x4 Su-22s assigned in mission to attack Bandar Khomeini, the formation intercepted by two Iranian F-14's (the formation lead by No1. Major Faisal Habbo, No.2 First Lieutenant. Sabah Saad Hussein Al-Jader, No.3 Capt. Miesar Asuad Farhan, No.4 First Lieutenant. Naji Ahmed Abd) the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile and chased the remaining Su-22s till Al-Faw city causing damage in gun fire to the formation leader aircraft. No2 and No4 eject safely and captured by Iranian and appeared on Iranian television but they died because of torture..

I was searching for this Su-22 mission since 1 week but you finally reveal it

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 22:40
by tomcooper
Now lookie here: this is getting really interesting... finally...

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:My fault i typing 67 (apology) 67 Squadron belong to MIG-23s Nasiriyah AB, Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 17 Squadron MIG-21MF Abu Ubaidah Airbase (deployed in 1978 till 1983 they moved to H3).
No. 17 Squadron was an OCU equipped with older variants, such like FLs, PFMs, F-13s, and UMs. It was actually re-activated during preparations for invasion of Iran, with the purpose of protecting Air Academy AB (Tikrit).


Iraqi MiG-21MFs were delivered in period 1971-1973; few were lost in war with Israel in 1973, few in war with Kurds in 1974-1975, few in war with Iran, and - generally - the entire fleet was quite worn-out by 1980. I.e. this variant was too 'rare' to enable re-armament of No. 17 Sqn.

With other words: I doubt an-Naqeeb flew a MF on that occassion. Or if: then he didn't serve with No. 17 Squadron.

Actually, given the base from which he started and area of engagement you mentioned, I would say he flew MiG-21bis' with No. 14 Squadron.

That was a little-known (or at least 'largely forgotten') unit even within the IrAF: it was originally established on MiG-21PFms in 1969, but apparently disbanded sometimes around 1973. Re-established in early 1980, it was equipped with brand-new MiG-21bis', based at Abu Ubaida AB, and disbanded again in 1982 or 1983.

tomcooper wrote:Press-conference is no evidence for a kill.

They did show the MIG-21 gunsight firing the F-14 to the Journalists some of them was Spanish (hopefully anyone of them if still alive till this day can show this picture).
I've heard of that 'famous gun-camera film', but no IRIAF F-14 was lost in combat by the date of that conference (December 1980).

So, on what date should he have claimed this F-14?

tomcooper wrote:- When (date) should have Nawfal scored his F-14 kill?
- Where did Nawfal serve (i.e. what did he fly) before joining No. 73 Squadron?

-Capt.Nawfal Shaaban was MIG-21 and MIG-23MF and then ML (that's why my first though he achieved this victory on ML).
-Other details on him cannot be on public for some reason.
Well, there are a few good reasons why you should try to learn more about this gentleman. Primary is that he was trully one of best IrAF fighter pilots ever (and then one not bull-shitting around about his supposed achievements).

Nawfal flew MiG-21bis with No. 47 Squadron, early during the war. Between others, he should've been No. 1 to 1st Lt Abdullah Lau'aybi during a quite famous air combat with F-5s over Suleimaniyah, on 26 October 1980, during which he was fighting calibres like Ardestani and Sharifi-Raad... (which is another story people like you say you are should actually know about).

Indeed: various of Nawfal's achievements were reason for creation of that 'Muhammed Sky Falcon whatever' legend...

11 Sept 1983....
Don't recall any IRIAF F-14-losses around that date, but I'll check with my notes.

tomcooper wrote:- Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji?

If you mean relatives "no they are not". But Khaffaji is clan title you may find many people have the same title such as al-Tikriti, for example,
Kind of pity... but OK.

And otherwise, Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji rings no bells in Iraq any more...?

If so, sigh... man-oh-man: it's gentlemen like Nawfal and Khaffaji you should be boasting about here, because it was people like them that were making IrAF a proud service...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 23:08
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
tomcooper wrote:- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

The list above for people i know for sure who received Medal of Courage achieving for this victory.

-Regarding to the AN-2 on 25 August 1980 Major General Alwan al-Abousi confirmed that the plane forced to land in Iran by Iranian AF (the plan was civilian under registration S/N YI-AIQ belong to Skydive "Sport Parachute Club") later all the skydivers with the plan released and back to Iraq.
...together with few 20mm holes - 'for improved airconditioning', I guess...

-On 19 Sept 1980 Major. Nubar Abdul Hamid al-Hamdani Squadron leader of 44Sq Su-22 Kirkuk AB assigned in recon mission over Serpil Zahab ( being shot down by anti-aircraft guns).
Yup, a well-known case, but not the one from two days earlier, which I was talking about.

Mind: Rahman flew Su-20Ms with No. 109 Squadron; Hamadani flew Su-22Ms with No. 44 Squadron...

-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron,
... the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile...

It might sound weird, and is certainly 'news' for many, but Iranian F-14s had no 'heat-seking missiles' as of 1980. They were delivered (in period 1976-1978, i.e. very shortly before the war) together with AIM-54s and M61A-1 Vulcan cannons only: Iranians intended to arm them with AIM-9Ls and AIM-7Fs at a latter date, but these were never delivered - because of 'revolution'...

So, for the first six months of the war, and until IRIAF ground technicians adapted AIM-9Js and AIM-7Es on them, they went into combat armed with AIM-54s and M61s only.

...which in turn was the reason why Reza Moradi - IRIAF F-14-pilot that flew his Tomcat into Iraq, in 1986 (only to get shot down by 'Medal of Courage' receiver name of whom is whitheld) - had it as easy to convince the IrAF Intelligence Department that Iranian Tomcats would be 'incompatible' with AIM-7s and AIM-9s: the manual he brought with him wasn't mentioning any Sparrows or Sidewinders...

...just another piece of the giant puzzle known as 'the legend of 'non-operational Iranian F-14s'...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 23:32
by oldiaf
Lt. Abdullala Luaybi ... The one who smashed his MiG-21 to Iranian F-5 ? Its famous story ... I think there is a statue for him in Baghdad ... I don't know if it still there or not

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2015, 01:06
by tomcooper
That's at least the Iraqi version. Iranians admitted 2 F-5Es (both from TFB.2) lost that day, but deny any were shot down in air combat.

Lua'ybi's sculpture was subsequently positioned in front of the IrAF HQ in Baghdad (also no clue if it's still there); years later it was 'decorated' with wreckage of Moradi's F-14...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2015, 13:17
by milos984
tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:
nikolaos wrote:Oldiaf can you be more specific about this interception? Can you give more details?

...I think it was Hazin... or was it Ghanei...? - who flew the last F-14 shot down by Iraqis...

IIRC it was Capt. Bahram Ghanei.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2015, 15:48
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:11 Sept 1983....The MIG-23's separate the F-14s patrol and engage with it and brought one down using R23R missile.

No F-14 was lost on that date (that's 100% sure), which is no surprise: R-23 was a terrible weapon ('on pair' only with earlier R-3S, usually described as 'junk' by most of pilots).

milos984 wrote:IIRC it was Capt. Bahram Ghanei.
Yes, thanks: Bahram Ghanei (or Qane'ei) with RIO Gholam-REza Asle-Davtalab. Ghanei was recovered, his RIO was KIA. They were 'that' second kill by MiG-23MLs... (and also the last combat loss of an IRIAF Tomcats during that war).


Anyway, re. Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji - and 'why is he important': Kamil was a youngster MiG-21FL/PFM pilot with No. 9 Squadron when that unit deployed to Syria, on 7 October 1973. He converted to MiG-21s barely a year earlier, but was such a good pilot, his unit CO appointed him a section-leader. Now, it's truth that Khaffaji - quite unsurprisingly (because of the poor weapons system of the MiG-21) - was shot down in his first air combat: that was a multi-bogey clash between 4-6 MiG-21s and a simialr number of Israeli Phantoms NE of Damascus, already the same day (i.e. only few hours after No. 9 Squadron arrived in Syria).

But, Khaffaji didn't complain, didn't ask for leave or else: he went straight back into action. Two days later, he was with a formation that clashed with Mirages over the Israeli-occuppied Golan Heights: he scored a confirmed kill (one of very few even Israelis are ready to admit), but sadly, was shot down and KIA shortly after (full story with details, photos etc., Arab MiGs Volume 5).

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 06:55
by nikolaos
[/quote]
-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron, Shuaiba AB x4 Su-22s assigned in mission to attack Bandar Khomeini, the formation intercepted by two Iranian F-14's (the formation lead by No1. Major Faisal Habbo, No.2 First Lieutenant. Sabah Saad Hussein Al-Jader, No.3 Capt. Miesar Asuad Farhan, No.4 First Lieutenant. Naji Ahmed Abd) the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile and chased the remaining Su-22s till Al-Faw city causing damage in gun fire to the formation leader aircraft. No2 and No4 eject safely and captured by Iranian and appeared on Iranian television but they died because of torture..[/quote]
I was searching for this Su-22 mission since 1 week but you finally reveal it[/quote]

How many SU-22s Iraqis lost during the war with Iraq? I see that they were used heavily and they were the workhorse of Iraqi Air force when comes to bombing and strike missions.
Torturing POWs is against the Geneva Convention, how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 07:06
by tomcooper
nikolaos wrote:How many SU-22s Iraqis lost during the war with Iraq?
Around 70. Particularly Su-22Ms of No.109 Squadron suffered badly: only 2 of them were left by the end of war (and even these were dumped at the junkyard of Tammouz AB).

Torturing POWs is against the Geneva Convention, how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?
...considering how poor was their intel: heaven only knows how did they come to that conclusion...

About 'torture of POWs': generally, neither captured Iranian nor captured Iraqi pilots were 'tortured' - at least not under interrogation. Both sides knew much too good that they are a precious source of intel (at least 'usually'), and thus took great care to get them alive.

But...

Several Iranian pilots were lynched by the mob and one publicly hung in Basrah. One Iraqi pilot was lynched by mob (in Arak, which is why Iraqis then heavily bombed that city, killing hundreds of civilians), one or two others murdered by IRGC thugs.

In essence, and as usually, crucial were the first 5-10 minutes after a downed pilot was captured. If he came down near civilians or troops he just bombed... well, it was often hard for local civilian authorities or military commanders from either side to keep angry people or even military troops under control.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 10:13
by oldiaf
Iran as I remember claimed 42 Su-22 shut downed by Fighters ... Iraq claims only 29 for all combat reasons ... Not counting accidents in training or any non combat flying .. I will try to list all Su-20/22 crashes I know about.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 11:12
by oldiaf
Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Lt. Yunis Motar
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB ...was in CAS mission with other 3 pilots on March 29 1988 .. His Aircraft hit ( unknown by what ) .. Ejected and Iranian troops rushed to him and fired on him so he returned fire with his pistol but he was killed.

For the pilots died in prisons :
Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi ... also Mirage F.1EQ pilot from squadron 91 Abu Ubaida base shut downed over the southern battle field in 1987.... Iran offered to exchange him with anti-regim group probably Mujahidi Khalq but this was refused ... Never heard about him after ... Presumed dead.

Lt. Ali Hameed Aljubori
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wheda AB ..( unknown by what ) Jan 15 1988 over the city of Mot / northern sector ... POW
according to other Pilot from same squadron he was also POW and released after the war ... Died in prison.

Pilot unknown wether in prison or by ground troops
Lt. Ameer Mohammed Mahmood shutdowned
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB was in a mission as No.2 with other Su-22 to attack Shaikh Bdeer camp Oct. 25 1980 but his
aircraft hit the high tension wires while on low flying and had to eject ... No.1 Lt. Mohammed Salman Mohammed saw the Iranian cars rush to him ... Unknown fate wether he was killed on impact or killed by troops or died in prison.

Those who I know about them ... Other pilots unknown fate probably died on impact and Iran never reported their fate....
For examples :
Captain Najdat Ismael Haqi
Su-7 Squadron 8 Abu ubaida AB 1980.... Shutdowned ( unknown cause ) over Saif Saad region ... Unknown fate ... Presumed dead.
Lt. Abdulah Jasim
Su-22 Squadron 5 Wehda AB ... May 2 1982 ....shut downed ( unknown cause ) over Kharomshahr city .. He was No.2 in formation of 2 ...Unknown fate.. Presumed dead

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 12:55
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...
...summer 1985 or 1986; I'm searching for the correct date too.

(There was some confusion over this issue, then the aircraft in question was claimed by Iranians as MiG-25RB.)

Anyway: some of their bombs hit the centre of Arak, and when ash-Shaikhili came down (quite close to where his bombs have 'hit'), enraged mob lynched him before any police officers could get him... (not that the policemen would've had any chance of getting him at all).

It's no excuse, but that's a 'little bit different' to Iraqi military capturing, and then publicly hanging an IRIAF pilot as 'aerial bandit' - like Iraqis did in Basrah...

The rest of your list is listing what were either pilots KIA while resisting capture on the ground, or are actually 'MIAs': 'missing in action'. Not only Iraqis, but not even Iranians know what exactly happened with most of them. Few of these cases are related to AIM-54-strikes: when one of these scored a direct hit, it usually went for the cockpit (highest radar-cross-section at the front top side of the aircraft) - and there was nothing left to identify.

Finally: there were 3-4 cases of Iraqi POW-pilots 'changing sides', so to say. I.e. they 'disappeared' from POW-camps, and then re-appeared years later (one was even assigned the post of an Iraqi ambassador abroad, sometimes in 2006 or so).

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 13:08
by old.iraqi.air.force
oldiaf wrote:Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Lt. Yunis Motar
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB ...was in CAS mission with other 3 pilots on March 29 1988 .. His Aircraft hit ( unknown by what ) .. Ejected and Iranian troops rushed to him and fired on him so he returned fire with his pistol but he was killed.

For the pilots died in prisons :
Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi ... also Mirage F.1EQ pilot from squadron 91 Abu Ubaida base shut downed over the southern battle field in 1987.... Iran offered to exchange him with anti-regim group probably Mujahidi Khalq but this was refused ... Never heard about him after ... Presumed dead.

Lt. Ali Hameed Aljubori
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wheda AB ..( unknown by what ) Jan 15 1988 over the city of Mot / northern sector ... POW
according to other Pilot from same squadron he was also POW and released after the war ... Died in prison.

Pilot unknown wether in prison or by ground troops
Lt. Ameer Mohammed Mahmood shutdowned
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB was in a mission as No.2 with other Su-22 to attack Shaikh Bdeer camp Oct. 25 1980 but his
aircraft hit the high tension wires while on low flying and had to eject ... No.1 Lt. Mohammed Salman Mohammed saw the Iranian cars rush to him ... Unknown fate wether he was killed on impact or killed by troops or died in prison.

Those who I know about them ... Other pilots unknown fate probably died on impact and Iran never reported their fate....
For examples :
Captain Najdat Ismael Haqi
Su-7 Squadron 8 Abu ubaida AB 1980.... Shutdowned ( unknown cause ) over Saif Saad region ... Unknown fate ... Presumed dead.
Lt. Abdulah Jasim
Su-22 Squadron 5 Wehda AB ... May 2 1982 ....shut downed ( unknown cause ) over Kharomshahr city .. He was No.2 in formation of 2 ...Unknown fate.. Presumed dead

Excuse me be careful and accurate in translation or better not to translated, all the list above on our official website and all these pilots shot down by anti-aircraft guns (which we refer to it in tow characters " م ط ") so the subject talk about air to air kill ratio claim why these names listed here?
The second thing:
oldiaf wrote:Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Major Sabah Abdulqadir drop his bombs on taxiing F-4 " and you change the translation to shot down by F-4!!?? and the text clearly mentioned " م ط " means anti-aircraft guns
Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ was reconnaissance Pilot, he was in recon mission filming aluminum plant in Arak benign shot down by SAM and lynched by Iranian people and heir IRGC, which is why Iraqi AF then heavily bombed that city, Iran was proud to show that lynched on television screen

___
nikolaos wrote:how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 13:20
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
nikolaos wrote:how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.
Sigh... with which we're within realms of science-fiction again...

How would you then describe public hanging of that unfortunate IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah, early during the war?

'Brutality and barbarism', 'war crime', any other ideas...?

Anyway: this (death of that Mirage F.1 pilot in Arak) took place at the height of the II War of the Cities.

Do I have to remind you that Iraqi bombs were killing dozens of Iranian civilians every day at the time...?

Iran has a reasonably free media: if somebody there wants to put a photo showing the body of an Iraqi pilot lynched by a mob, he's free to do so. No religious or military censor is going to object. In this case, it had 'additional effect' of 'warning' Iraqi pilots that were bombing Iranian civilians about what could happen to them if they get shot down while doing so. And, hand at heart: most of Iran-Iraq War was a 'war of messages and signals'.

Again: this is no excuse. But at least the civilians in question have killed a military officer. I.e. a person who volunteered to serve in a military service, a person that knew very well what was he doing, and what could happen to him.

On the contrary; the military officer in question (and his colleagues) were bombing civilians - and that for years. The last I know about such actions, they are considered a 'war crime' in most of civilised world.

This all is simply sad, but absolutely no reason to act beasty and demonise one or the other side.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 13:44
by oldiaf
Su-20/22 loss list ( incomplete )

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 13:48
by oldiaf
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
oldiaf wrote:Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Lt. Yunis Motar
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB ...was in CAS mission with other 3 pilots on March 29 1988 .. His Aircraft hit ( unknown by what ) .. Ejected and Iranian troops rushed to him and fired on him so he returned fire with his pistol but he was killed.

For the pilots died in prisons :
Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi ... also Mirage F.1EQ pilot from squadron 91 Abu Ubaida base shut downed over the southern battle field in 1987.... Iran offered to exchange him with anti-regim group probably Mujahidi Khalq but this was refused ... Never heard about him after ... Presumed dead.

Lt. Ali Hameed Aljubori
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wheda AB ..( unknown by what ) Jan 15 1988 over the city of Mot / northern sector ... POW
according to other Pilot from same squadron he was also POW and released after the war ... Died in prison.

Pilot unknown wether in prison or by ground troops
Lt. Ameer Mohammed Mahmood shutdowned
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB was in a mission as No.2 with other Su-22 to attack Shaikh Bdeer camp Oct. 25 1980 but his
aircraft hit the high tension wires while on low flying and had to eject ... No.1 Lt. Mohammed Salman Mohammed saw the Iranian cars rush to him ... Unknown fate wether he was killed on impact or killed by troops or died in prison.

Those who I know about them ... Other pilots unknown fate probably died on impact and Iran never reported their fate....
For examples :
Captain Najdat Ismael Haqi
Su-7 Squadron 8 Abu ubaida AB 1980.... Shutdowned ( unknown cause ) over Saif Saad region ... Unknown fate ... Presumed dead.
Lt. Abdulah Jasim
Su-22 Squadron 5 Wehda AB ... May 2 1982 ....shut downed ( unknown cause ) over Kharomshahr city .. He was No.2 in formation of 2 ...Unknown fate.. Presumed dead

Excuse me be careful and accurate in translation or better not to translated, all the list above on our official website and all these pilots shot down by anti-aircraft guns (which we refer to it in tow characters " م ط ") so the subject talk about air to air kill ratio claim why these names listed here?
The second thing:
oldiaf wrote:Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Major Sabah Abdulqadir drop his bombs on taxiing F-4 " and you change the translation to shot down by F-4!!?? and the text clearly mentioned " م ط " means anti-aircraft guns
Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ was reconnaissance Pilot, he was in recon mission filming aluminum plant in Arak benign shot down by SAM and lynched by Iranian people and heir IRGC, which is why Iraqi AF then heavily bombed that city, Iran was proud to show that lynched on television screen

___
nikolaos wrote:how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.

My apology if I made some mistakes ... But the list is too long and mistakes do happen... My apology again and I count on you to clarify events

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 13:50
by oldiaf
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
nikolaos wrote:how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.
Sigh... with which we're within realms of science-fiction again...

How would you then describe public hanging of that unfortunate IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah, early during the war?

'Brutality and barbarism', 'war crime', any other ideas...?

Anyway: this (death of that Mirage F.1 pilot in Arak) took place at the height of the II War of the Cities.

Do I have to remind you that Iraqi bombs were killing dozens of Iranian civilians every day at the time...?

Iran has a reasonably free media: if somebody there wants to put a photo showing the body of an Iraqi pilot lynched by a mob, he's free to do so. No religious or military censor is going to object. In this case, it had 'additional effect' of 'warning' Iraqi pilots that were bombing Iranian civilians about what could happen to them if they get shot down while doing so. And, hand at heart: most of Iran-Iraq War was a 'war of messages and signals'.

Again: this is no excuse. But at least the civilians in question have killed a military officer. I.e. a person who volunteered to serve in a military service, a person that knew very well what was he doing, and what could happen to him.

On the contrary; the military officer in question (and his colleagues) were bombing civilians - and that for years. The last I know about such actions, they are considered a 'war crime' in most of civilised world.

This all is simply sad, but absolutely no reason to act beasty and demonise one or the other side.

Of course anything like this is absolute barbarism from any side

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 14:24
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
nikolaos wrote:how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?

Because Iran didn't hesitate to show their brutality and barbarism on television or even local newspapers, In addition to films and intelligence info and prisoners witnesses and signs of torture on their bodies.
Sigh... with which we're within realms of science-fiction again...

How would you then describe public hanging of that unfortunate IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah, early during the war?

'Brutality and barbarism', 'war crime', any other ideas...?

This thing never happened at all no Iranian pilot or even captured soldier was tortured or hanging (let Iran prove that claims) by videos or photos or their names.
This is one of Iranian barbarism action against Iraqi prisoners during Iraq-Iran war, not to mention killing more than 3,000 Iraqi prisoners between officers and soldiers who have been going around them in the battle of Busaiteen 1 of December 1981 and for that they established the Martyrs Monument in capital Baghdad and became the "Day of the Iraqi martyr"


tomcooper wrote:Do I have to remind you that Iraqi bombs were killing dozens of Iranian civilians every day at the time...?

First you have to remember that Iran who started the war on cities and targeting civilians through shelling city of Basrah by heavy North Korea artillery and other types with rocket launchers and bombing Baghdad by SCUD missiles as well..
Iraqi air force didn't mean to hit or target civilians at all, it was wrong drop bombs caused civilian casualties such as what happened many time in WWII or even in DS 1991.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 14:31
by oldiaf
Map of the war of the cities

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 14:33
by old.iraqi.air.force
oldiaf wrote:My apology if I made some mistakes ... But the list is too long and mistakes do happen... My apology again and I count on you to clarify events

No worry as i always told you, you're more than welcome and feel free if you have any questions and do not hesitate to PM,
And many thanks to all your efforts and your interest with appreciation.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 15:21
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:No. 17 Squadron was an OCU equipped with older variants, such like FLs, PFMs, F-13s, and UMs. It was actually re-activated during preparations for invasion of Iran, with the purpose of protecting Air Academy AB (Tikrit).

All squadron became effective combat units when the war began, even the Su-7 and hawker hunters carried out combat missions early in the war.

tomcooper wrote:With other words: I doubt an-Naqeeb flew a MF on that occassion. Or if: then he didn't serve with No. 17 Squadron.

You mix with another pilot he has the same (family/clan title) name, as well with Nawfal Shaaban you mix with another Nawfal.

tomcooper wrote:So, on what date should he have claimed this F-14?

Earlier months of the war before 1981

tomcooper wrote:Well, there are a few good reasons why you should try to learn more about this gentleman. Primary is that he was trully one of best IrAF fighter pilots ever (and then one not bull-shitting around about his supposed achievements).

Hopefully this part will make sense to the people who never meet or know these pilots in real life, to be an incentive to correct their history properly. To me i grew up under their wills and their tips and we are such one body and one family.
So no need to tell me about both of them, thank you anyway..
tomcooper wrote:Nawfal flew MiG-21bis with No. 47 Squadron, early during the war. Between others, he should've been No. 1 to 1st Lt Abdullah Lau'aybi during a quite famous air combat with F-5s over Suleimaniyah, on 26 October 1980

That's right but Nawfal you refer to is not the same Nawfal Shaaban i mentioned..


tomcooper wrote:Kind of pity... but OK.

This kind of words make no sense if you willing to continue this discussion about aerial combat history.
You know very well English is not my first language and mostly i use google to translate it, so when you ask "Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji" what should i understand it? they're relatives or cousins..etc

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 15:51
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:It might sound weird, and is certainly 'news' for many, but Iranian F-14s had no 'heat-seking missiles' as of 1980. They were delivered (in period 1976-1978, i.e. very shortly before the war) together with AIM-54s and M61A-1 Vulcan cannons only: Iranians intended to arm them with AIM-9Ls and AIM-7Fs at a latter date, but these were never delivered - because of 'revolution'...

This is what i informed by the same Su-22 pilot who attack Aghajari power plant, which he was very close of this incident.

tomcooper wrote:No F-14 was lost on that date (that's 100% sure), which is no surprise: R-23 was a terrible weapon ('on pair' only with earlier R-3S, usually described as 'junk' by most of pilots).

OK, if there is no losses on this date or that date..etc, therefore no need to waste our time here,because at the end Iran will deny every single losses to their F-14's (in this case we will enter hot discussion for no reason).
So let's keep this subject on Iranian claims only such 250 kills or 300 or whatever at the end it's just claims no more no less.
Regards

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 18:15
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:This thing never happened at all...
...sigh... so, I do have to search for notes on the name of the pilot in question, plus eye-witness accounts? You insist on all the details to be published here?

First you have to remember that Iran who started the war on cities and targeting civilians through shelling city of Basrah by heavy North Korea artillery...
...which is another pile of nonsense usually spread by 'convinced Iraqis'.

The first to bombard civilians was Iraq, when it hit living quarters of Dezful AB (TFB.4) with Scuds, in late September 1980, killing dozens of civilians. As next, Iraqis obliterated Khorramshahr, Shalamcheh, Howeyzeh, Ardebil and many towns along the border, already in September 1980. Would you like to have a few scans of recce photos showing Iranian towns razed with the ground?

Mind: we're talking here about purely civilian places.

That was the pre-text for 'War of the Cities' (that is: its I Phase), which began with Iranians firing SS-1c Scud-B SSMs (which they've got from Libya) on Baghdad, in early 1985. This enraged Saddam who ordered retaliation - and this came in form of MiG-25RBs bombing Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Qom, Arak, Tabriz etc.

(BTW, North-Korean Koksun long-range cannons calibre 175mm appeared on the battlefields only in 1986.)

Iraqi air force didn't mean to hit or target civilians at all, it was wrong drop bombs caused civilian casualties...
More nonsense.

Given MiG-25RB's nav/attack system was designed for deployment of nukes, it couldn't really 'aim' for anything else but a 'city'. Indeed, if we take their attacks on Khark as an example, crews of No. 84 Squadron were already happy if they've hit that island (and they never hit anything of importance there)... So, the usual story about the aiming point for bombardments of Tehran in 1985 being the IRIAF HQ at Dowshan Tappeh AB is really bullshit: this was not hit even once. Iraqis knew they would never hit it; they knew they were primarily hitting southern disctricts of the city, where poor are living, but they bombed, nevertheless.

And if we go a step further, and - for example - discuss the part of the map posted by 'oldiaf' related to chemical attacks, matters look really bestial for the IrAF. Then, namely, Iraqis have to explain the condition and situation of over 100,000 citizens of cities like Abadan, Ahwaz, Khorramshar and Susangerd that are suffering from intake of Iraqi chemical weapons until today.

The extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraqis eventually proved the actual reason for Tehran accepting the UN-sponsored cease-fire: the IRGC could simply not find enough volunteers to launch any further of its 'final' offensives...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 18:24
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:All squadron became effective combat units when the war began, even the Su-7 and hawker hunters carried out combat missions early in the war.
So what? I told you how the No. 17 Squadron came into being because you cited some No. 67 Squadron, - which never existed.

You mix with another pilot he has the same (family/clan title) name, as well with Nawfal Shaaban you mix with another Nawfal.
And even if I mix Albanians with Andorans: fact is, there was no MiG-21MF-equipped No. 67 Squadron in al-Kut. OK, you admitted that No. 67 was your tippo, but you're still wrong with your new designation.

Whatever: fact is there was no need to re-deploy MiG-21MFs from any other unit to that base, because this was the home of MiG-21bis-equipped

Summary: this story is nifty. Go back and re-check it.

tomcooper wrote:So, on what date should he have claimed this F-14?

Earlier months of the war before 1981
...sigh...

No wonder you're convinced IrAF shot down 14+ Iranian F-14s: why should one care about such 'unimportant details' like dates? 'It happened during that war', you said so, so it must be 100% truth, Insh'allah...

That's right but Nawfal you refer to is not the same Nawfal Shaaban i mentioned...
Oh, really? So who is then 'that' Nawfal I'm talking about?

OK, if there is no losses on this date or that date..etc, therefore no need to waste our time here,because at the end Iran will deny every single losses to their F-14's (in this case we will enter hot discussion for no reason).
Give me a date that's true (in sense of: some Iraqi claim that really resulted in downing of an Iranian F-14), and I'll confirm it.

Complete data on Iranian F-14-losses is available (only one RIO is missing), and actually known to such researchers like me.

Not my fault if half of claims you've posted (and half the 'Medal of Courage' received by Iraqi pilots) are based on little else but hot air.

And: don't expect from me to give you any tips in this regards. I'll not let you twist your stories to suit your truth.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 11:18
by milos984
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:They did show the MIG-21 gunsight firing the F-14 to the Journalists some of them was Spanish (hopefully anyone of them if still alive till this day can show this picture).

Film from aircrafts guncamera is important part of a proces of verification. But not sufficient. There were many occasions in which gun camera films were presented by IDF/AF and depicting "arab MiG" falling in flames. And suprise, suprise many of this MiG credited to IDF pilots were just demaged. So shoting down even such light-weight like MiG-21 is not easy as presented in mainstream media, even more problematic is shot down of such heavies like F-4 or F-14.
---
So there was gun camera film presented. I say OK, but where is other evidence.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 14:13
by oldiaf
Regarding the issue of attacking civilian centers in DS ... I don't think its intentional but rather result from errors ... Only 229 shooter aircraft as I recall were capable of delivering smart weapons and even with these many factors played a role in limiting its effectiveness such as bad weather interfering with LGB ... For example the 80% hit accuracy claimed by the 42 F-117A Nighthawks were scaled back recently to 40-60% at best.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 22:34
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:....sigh... so, I do have to search for notes on the name of the pilot in question, plus eye-witness accounts? You insist on all the details to be published here?

Why not if you have irrefutable evidence (photos,videos) prove Iraqi public hang IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah show it to us, otherwise things such as eye-witness accounts can not be adopted and unreliable. You have good example Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ Kuwaiti lady, who alleged that she had witnessed the murder of infant children by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait, in verbal testimony to the U.S. Congress, in the run up to the 1991 Gulf War. Later became clear it's fake testimony..

tomcooper wrote:...which is another pile of nonsense usually spread by 'convinced Iraqis'.
The first to bombard civilians was Iraq, when it hit living quarters of Dezful AB (TFB.4) with Scuds, in late September 1980, killing dozens of civilians. As next, Iraqis obliterated Khorramshahr, Shalamcheh, Howeyzeh, Ardebil and many towns along the border, already in September 1980. Would you like to have a few scans of recce photos showing Iranian towns razed with the ground?

Great and thank you for this proof (Iraqi forces "Army") start to fire back on Iran in September 1980 as you confirmed now, while Iran start to bombing Iraqi cities and towns and villages since 15 June 1980 this mean Iran who start first the war on cities (and we have official protest notes and telegrams sent by the Iraqi Ministry of Foreign to UN and Iranian embassy) expresses a complaint about Iranian attacks to Iraqi cities..etc
With all that irrefutable evidence, the Iranian F-5 pilot. Hassan Ali Reza Lashkari who was shot down over Diyala city in 7 of September 1980 by Maj. Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge MIG-21, even weeks before the war..
So at the end Iran and it's trumpets has only pile of nonsense as usual with no single evidence proof their empty allegations..
Pictures below shows the moment of delivering Iranian F-5 pilot. Hassan Ali Reza Lashkari to Iran and you can note his health and weight when he was in Iraq and later became skinny in Iran "this is just another evidence prove that Iraqi was treated them excellently..
Image

tomcooper wrote:Given MiG-25RB's nav/attack system was designed for deployment of nukes, it couldn't really 'aim' for anything else but a 'city'. Indeed, if we take their attacks on Khark as an example, crews of No. 84 Squadron were already happy if they've hit that island (and they never hit anything of importance there)... So, the usual story about the aiming point for bombardments of Tehran in 1985 being the IRIAF HQ at Dowshan Tappeh AB is really bullshit: this was not hit even once. Iraqis knew they would never hit it; they knew they were primarily hitting southern disctricts of the city, where poor are living, but they bombed, nevertheless.

We didn't had MIG-25's No. 84 Squadron (as i confirmed to you before) so no need to talk about the rest of the claims.
tomcooper wrote:And if we go a step further, and - for example - discuss the part of the map posted by 'oldiaf' related to chemical attacks, matters look really bestial for the IrAF. Then, namely, Iraqis have to explain the condition and situation of over 100,000 citizens of cities like Abadan, Ahwaz, Khorramshar and Susangerd that are suffering from intake of Iraqi chemical weapons until today.
The extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraqis eventually proved the actual reason for Tehran accepting the UN-sponsored cease-fire: the IRGC could simply not find enough volunteers to launch any further of its 'final' offensives...

The map post by 'oldiaf' is not official and didn't belong to the Iraqi Air Force and we don't use such these maps or English language on it, plus the map format looks modern design by computer, so you can't adopted as official Iraqi AF document and establish matters such chemical attacks..etc
Iraqi Air force never ever used chemical weapons against own people or Iranian civilians, any official document prove that Iraqi Air force used chemical weapons against Iraqi people ( i will be very very grateful to you if you give me copy of it).
The attack was by Iranian AF and which they used sarin gas.but this story re-told by Media and used against Saddam when he invaded Kuwait to mobilize public opinion against him.
Retired army war college professor and CIA-analyst Stephen Pelletiere tolled all the truth about that chemical attack in this video.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 22:40
by oldiaf
The chemical attack marks in the map do not refer to the perpetrator wether Iraq or Iran

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 23:50
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:And even if I mix Albanians with Andorans: fact is, there was no MiG-21MF-equipped No. 67 Squadron in al-Kut. OK, you admitted that No. 67 was your tippo, but you're still wrong with your new designation.
Whatever: fact is there was no need to re-deploy MiG-21MFs from any other unit to that base, because this was the home of MiG-21bis-equipped

Not correct the bis Squadron deployed at al-Kut mid 1981, No.17 followed by No.9 and then No.14 Squadron MIG-21bis from Nasiriyah AB, Maj. Gen. Mokhalad AbdulKarim served as base commander and he has the whole history of that al-Kut AB since they started in 1971.


tomcooper wrote:No wonder you're convinced IrAF shot down 14+ Iranian F-14s: why should one care about such 'unimportant details' like dates? 'It happened during that war', you said so, so it must be 100% truth, Insh'allah...

I wrote to you on my previous comment especially on Captain Mohsen Sebti MIG-23 pilot (I have to check with them) which mean two person, give it time..almost 40 years of that war, today all of them grandparents.

tomcooper wrote:Oh, really? So who is then 'that' Nawfal I'm talking about?

Capt.Nawfal you refer to (his title/family name) not Shaaban.

tomcooper wrote:Give me a date that's true (in sense of: some Iraqi claim that really resulted in downing of an Iranian F-14), and I'll confirm it.
Complete data on Iranian F-14-losses is available (only one RIO is missing), and actually known to such researchers like me.
Not my fault if half of claims you've posted (and half the 'Medal of Courage' received by Iraqi pilots) are based on little else but hot air.
And: don't expect from me to give you any tips in this regards. I'll not let you twist your stories to suit your truth.

Don't bother your self,i don't need you to confirm whether it's shot down or not many other sources and authors speak about Iran F-14's losses during that war. And the most credible speak is the Iraqi Air Force action's and targets that dealt with it deep inside Iranian territory.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 01:05
by oldiaf
I always asked my self when reading media reports about this vague MiG-25 squadron 84 !?!! Even early reports that revealed the truth about Speicher F/A-18 shut down told that Zuhair Dawood MiG-25 was from this fictional squadron 84 !! I wonder who invented it ?! And why ?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 11:58
by milos984
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:...many other sources and authors speak about Iran F-14's losses during that war. And the most credible speak is the Iraqi Air Force action's and targets that dealt with it deep inside Iranian territory.

There is no direct link between IrAF claim on shoting down a Tomcat in 1980 and between IrAF deep strikes on iranian infrastructure in late stage of war.
As I say previously, gun camera film is important but not suficient piece of evidence, to 100% say that IRIAF F-14 was SD.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 12:28
by mixelflick
I vaguely recall an Iraqi Mirage F-1 surprising and F-14 and taking it down. Trap like engagement, F-14 was acting as an AWACS.

Old Iraqi AF, any recollection of that one?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 18:26
by oldiaf
What was the perception of Iraqi pilots about the F-15C before desert storm ?? Did they fear it more than the F-14 or vice versa ? Since they have experience with the Iranian F-14s ... Also did Iraqi Pilots knew there was F-15E Strike version of the F-15 ?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 18:32
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
tomcooper wrote:....sigh... so, I do have to search for notes on the name of the pilot in question, plus eye-witness accounts? You insist on all the details to be published here?

Why not if you have irrefutable evidence (photos,videos) prove Iraqi public hang IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah show it to us...
As you like, I'll do so, don't worry.

tomcooper wrote:...which is another pile of nonsense usually spread by 'convinced Iraqis'.
The first to bombard civilians was Iraq, when it hit living quarters of Dezful AB (TFB.4) with Scuds, in late September 1980, killing dozens of civilians. As next, Iraqis obliterated Khorramshahr, Shalamcheh, Howeyzeh, Ardebil and many towns along the border, already in September 1980. Would you like to have a few scans of recce photos showing Iranian towns razed with the ground?

Great and thank you for this proof (Iraqi forces "Army") start to fire back on Iran in September 1980 as you confirmed now, while Iran start to bombing Iraqi cities and towns and villages since 15 June 1980
What 'Iraqi cities and towns' were bombed on 15 June 1980?

If you 'gauge' by such PRBS, it was IrAF that 'started' - by bombing Iran, already in April 1980. Or did you forget the 'holy mission' of Su-20s from No. 1 Squadron...?

Yeah, for a true Ba'thist, the target in question was 'only' some nifty Kurdish village where Barzani brothers were hiding - but that village was still inside Iranian borders, on Iranian soil, within sovereign Iranian territory. I.e.: that was an attack on Iran.

Target was actually completely civilian: not only that Barzanis were nowhere around, but no Iranian military either: Iranian military was de-mobilized at that time. Nearest Army units were at less than 20% of their nominal strenght, most of the IRIAF didn't fly since late 1978...

But no: your Ba'ath PRBS is that they were 'preparing invasion of Iran'... :roll:

With all that irrefutable evidence...
What 'irrefutable evidence'?

...the Iranian F-5 pilot. Hassan Ali Reza Lashkari who was shot down over Diyala city in 7 of September 1980 by Maj. Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge MIG-21, even weeks before the war..
Typical primitive Iraqi propaganda. I can't believe any sane person is ready to belive this... :roll:

If you love to insist on such nonsense, then at least keep in mind: Lashgari flew already the fourth IRIAF jet shot down by Iraqis in September 1980. The first was F-4E flown by Shams-Beigi/Ramezani, second F-4E flown by Eskandari/Ilkhani, and third was Lashgari's wingman...

But because Lashgari was the first to get captured by Iraqi ground troops (who have captured him inside Iran, BTW) clowns like you consider him 'evidence of Iranian aggression'.

Please explain me now: how can you be as stupid as this?

It is so endlessly dumb to consider Lashagri for something like 'evidence of Iranian aggression' - there are no words to describe this properly (or if, then one can only conclude that calling characters believing this 'dumb' would be an offense for any sincere stupids).

Your lovely Saddam ordered invasion of Iran precisely because he knew the Iranian miltary is not in condition to fight: because he expected a swift victory, perhaps a downfall of Mullah regime in Tehran too. And if Iranian miltiary was not in condition to fight, then how comes clowns like you are still insisting on claims like some sort of 'Iranian bombardment of Iraqi cities'...?

We didn't had MIG-25's No. 84 Squadron (as i confirmed to you before) so no need to talk about the rest of the claims.
Oh my... and since when is squadron designation related to 'precision' of Peleng-D...?!?

I mean... do you insist on presenting yourself as a brainwashed dumbass? :doh:

Iraqi Air force never ever used chemical weapons against own people or Iranian civilians...
Nah, of course not. Iranian civilians got infected by CWs while making guided tours of Baghdad downtown... :roll:

What I find particularly silly: you simply can't think of all of this in any sane or reasonable fashion. You're so full of hatred for Iranians, and so insistent on your primitive propaganda, you don't even understand that I can't care less - about them or you. All I want are FACTS about air warfare: I don't care the least from where or about whom they are. So, either you provide facts (instead of your usual bullshit) or give us all a break and go spreading your Ba'ath stench somewhere else, PLEASE.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 18:58
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:The chemical attack marks in the map do not refer to the perpetrator wether Iraq or Iran

Of course it's none of that: there are extremely precise maps of (Iraqi) attacks with chemical weapons, don't worry.

I just found it ridiculous this clown is so insistent on that laughable Ba'ath version about 'Iranian bombardment of Iraqi cities and villages' on 15 June 1980. That's such stinking nonsense, it's ridiculous to waste even 1 second of our time with it any more.

I always asked my self when reading media reports about this vague MiG-25 squadron 84 !?!!
Source was Sadik, he cited that unit as such already when publishing about Speicher case, in Iraqi papers, back in mid-1990s. No clue why.

Of course, he cited the unit that way when we were working together, back in mid-2000, too. So I memorized it that way. Guess, the others are simply copy-pasting from our publications without checking (probably in same fashion this clown began copy-pasting my articles on Tu-22s and presenting them as 'published by Iraqi air force'... :roll: ).

Frankly (as always): I'm using that designation since more than 10 years meanwhile. Memorized it, and can't memorize the 'correct' one for some reason - although I've got so many other details about Iraqi MiG-25s, meanwhile. I'll certainly not use it in any publication any more...and if I do so here: who cares, actually...?

milos984 wrote:There is no direct link between IrAF claim on shoting down a Tomcat in 1980 and between IrAF deep strikes on iranian infrastructure in late stage of war.
Psst. Don't tell him such things: he might suffer a heart stroke if realizing that his own lies are contradicting his boasting. :D

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 19:08
by oldiaf
So these 2 F-4 Phantoms and 2 F-5s that was shut downed ... before Sep 22 1980 ?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 21:26
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:So these 2 F-4 Phantoms and 2 F-5s that was shut downed ... before Sep 22 1980 ?

Yes.

Just like the IrAF lost at least as many Su-22s, Su-22Ms, MiG-21s.... and the IrAAC lost several Mi-8s and Mi-25s before 22 September 1980.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 23:31
by old.iraqi.air.force
What kind of sick of lying and hypocrisy you are in?!!
What a miserable impertinent person you are!!
Did you think i will let your bad words against me behind me and just let you say whatever you want?
You keep posting your bullshit lies here thinking with yourself your able to marketing the evil thoughts of Mullahs Tehran,
Well let me start with you a new page and show you a new face as we showed to your Masters in Tehran before 35 years ago.
Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari you bull-shitting around here? and even ejection-history.org.uk confirmed it was F-5, you love to be idiot and this came fit to you, because you're officially idiot and liar.
Source:
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/The%20Iran%20-%20Iraq%20War%20Iranian%20POWS/iran__iraq_war_iranian_pows.htm
Another page:
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/iranian_f_5_losses_any_ejections.htm

Maj. Gen.Alwan Alabbosi article about Iranian F-5 pilot Hossein Lashgari who shot down on 17-Dec-1980.
http://www.albasrah.net/ar_articles_2012/1012/3bosi_121012.htm

Do you need more sources such shoes in your stinky moth to stop lying and distortion of facts?

As you like, I'll do so, don't worry.

Yeah go ahead and fabricate story with a fake image like you did a hundred times before (let's laugh at donkey like you).

If you 'gauge' by such PRBS, it was IrAF that 'started' - by bombing Iran, already in April 1980. Or did you forget the 'holy mission' of Su-20s from No. 1 Squadron...?

Why don't you eat little sh**t and stop lying here, (mission' of Su-20s from No.1 Squadron, MIG-25R No.84 Squadron) craps followed by another, where do you bring this craps from? of your back and put it in your moth!
Yeah, for a true Ba'thist, the target in question was 'only' some nifty Kurdish village where Barzani brothers were hiding - but that village was still inside Iranian borders, on Iranian soil, within sovereign Iranian territory. I.e.: that was an attack on Iran.
Target was actually completely civilian: not only that Barzanis were nowhere around, but no Iranian military either: Iranian military was de-mobilized at that time. Nearest Army units were at less than 20% of their nominal strenght, most of the IRIAF didn't fly since late 1978...
But no: your Ba'ath PRBS is that they were 'preparing invasion of Iran'...

Bla bla bla.. Another load of sh**t come out of your stinky mouth, what is your evidence of this craps what is your proof!

What 'irrefutable evidence'?

Don't rush i will translated and post the original documents here to be such such slap cake on your face.
Typical primitive Iraqi propaganda. I can't believe any sane person is ready to belive this...

And the links above isn't enough to prove you're the lonely dumb primitive here?

If you love to insist on such nonsense, then at least keep in mind: Lashgari flew already the fourth IRIAF jet shot down by Iraqis in September 1980. The first was F-4E flown by Shams-Beigi/Ramezani, second F-4E flown by Eskandari/Ilkhani, and third was Lashgari's wingman...
But because Lashgari was the first to get captured by Iraqi ground troops (who have captured him inside Iran, BTW) clowns like you consider him 'evidence of Iranian aggression'.

Keep insist on your crap here links above shows your lies.

Please explain me now: how can you be as stupid as this? It is so endlessly dumb to consider Lashagri for something like 'evidence of Iranian aggression' - there are no words to describe this properly (or if, then one can only conclude that calling characters believing this 'dumb' would be an offense for any sincere stupids).Your lovely Saddam ordered invasion of Iran precisely because he knew the Iranian miltary is not in condition to fight: because he expected a swift victory, perhaps a downfall of Mullah regime in Tehran too. And if Iranian miltiary was not in condition to fight, then how comes clowns like you are still insisting on claims like some sort of 'Iranian bombardment of Iraqi cities'...?

Now explain to me what a damn liar you are and what kind of sickness inside you, and what kind of person has zero respect to himself and keep lying like this to humiliates himself again and again.
Do even know what does it mean shame? have you ever feel it? have you ever sit a second with yourself and ask this question: why people don't trust what you published? why people start forum thread talk about your reliability? why you hide yourself such a rat from many internet forums!
Why did you escaped from tank-net.com forum? because your lies showed up and you couldn't answer any question.
Why did you escaped from iraqimilitary.org forum? because hayder and raaft and Hawkeye shows your lies up and you couldn't answer any question.
Why did you escaped from Aviaton forum? because your lies showed up and you couldn't answer any question.
And many others JUST MANY OTHERS.what a silly and trifle person!

Oh my... and since when is squadron designation related to 'precision' of Peleng-D...?!?
I mean... do you insist on presenting yourself as a brainwashed dumbass?

Another load of sh**t came out of your stinky moth..
Bla Bla Bla MiG-25 squadron 84..etc
Bla Bla Bla he visit Baghdad and seen Iraqi MIg-25 wreckage..etc
He have CV's he as map he know every thing..etc
Why don't you eat sh**t again and shot your stinky moth sucker! you're just damn liar, all what you wrote and published based on internet forums and dumbass Mullahs information which is left or right both of you dirty miserable liars..

What I find particularly silly: you simply can't think of all of this in any sane or reasonable fashion. You're so full of hatred for Iranians, and so insistent on your primitive propaganda, you don't even understand that I can't care less - about them or you. All I want are FACTS about air warfare: I don't care the least from where or about whom they are. So, either you provide facts (instead of your usual bullshit) or give us all a break and go spreading your Ba'ath stench somewhere else, PLEASE.

Lie on yourself in this part just idiot like you may believe this, you were begging information in any case and i knew it how to drag you the way i want, because you're foolish so it wasn't even hard with my poor English.

Source was Sadik, he cited that unit as such already when publishing about Speicher case, in Iraqi papers, back in mid-1990s. No clue why.
Of course, he cited the unit that way when we were working together, back in mid-2000, too. So I memorized it that way. Guess, the others are simply copy-pasting from our publications without checking (probably in same fashion this clown began copy-pasting my articles on Tu-22s and presenting them as 'published by Iraqi air force'...

Lies followed by lies followed by lies ..... what is your problem!!!!??? just tell me what kind of sickness is this!!!
Wake up of this illusion...wake up of this dreams world..
Who is the God damn Brigadier General Ahmad Sadik!! you lie and believe your lies!
No one know Brigadier General Ahmad Sadik in Iraqi AF, all Iraqi air force generals denial his existence (fake person, fictional character, unreal character) and you keep lie General Ahmad Sadik co-author books with you!!
You co-author lies you co-author crap you co-author with fictional character not exist in real life except in your lies series.

Yes.

Just like the IrAF lost at least as many Su-22s, Su-22Ms, MiG-21s.... and the IrAAC lost several Mi-8s and Mi-25s before 22 September 1980.

What is your evidence of this crap!? just like many many others.?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 00:12
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:What kind of sick of lying and hypocrisy you are in?!!
What a miserable impertinent person you are!!
Did you think i will let your bad words against me behind me and just let you say whatever you want?
You keep posting your bullshit lies here thinking with yourself your able to marketing the evil thoughts of Mullahs Tehran,
Well let me start with you a new page and show you a new face as we showed to your Masters in Tehran before 35 years ago.
Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari...
You're too dumb to read (indeed, even to read sources for links you've posted. :P )

Like I concluded before: you're indeed the best argument pro anti-baby pills I've ever seen.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 00:21
by old.iraqi.air.force
tomcooper wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:What kind of sick of lying and hypocrisy you are in?!!
What a miserable impertinent person you are!!
Did you think i will let your bad words against me behind me and just let you say whatever you want?
You keep posting your bullshit lies here thinking with yourself your able to marketing the evil thoughts of Mullahs Tehran,
Well let me start with you a new page and show you a new face as we showed to your Masters in Tehran before 35 years ago.
Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari...
You're too dumb to read (indeed, even to read sources for links you've posted. :P )

Like I concluded before: you're indeed the best argument pro anti-baby pills I've ever seen.


You need a new eye-glasses
Image
Image

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 00:31
by oldiaf
BTW ... Why the prisoner exchange between the 2 countries lasted all this period ??! I heard some of the prisoners were released in 2002 ?!!

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 02:31
by tomcooper
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:You need a new eye-glasses

Did you actually re-read what I've posted about Lashgari...?

Are you grasping for straws - or just insisting on presenting yourself as an even bigger stupid than anybody can imagine?

Nah.. wait... I am going to admit a mistake now: I was wrong calling you a 'clown'.

A clown is somebody paid to play dumb. A professional.

You're genuinely a primitive, ignorant and jalous dumbass.

You're full of hatred for Iranians, and despise me because I've published 3 books and few articles covering (between others), Iranian air force. You didn't read a single of books in question, but in your illusion of grandeur, you 'know' about their content. And you 'know' this so well, that you failed to pay attention at the fact that I've researched and published three times as many books, and about ten-fold more articles about Arab air forces.... :D

Look how silly you are:

- You boast with your contact to Maj-Gen Alwan al-Abossi (IrAF, ret.). Ironically: because you have never read any of my books or articles, you have no clue that I'm in contact with him since years - via Group 73 Historians (<= click it, dummy, it's a link to a webiste of a group of enthusiast Egyptian historians, researching about Egyptian military at wars with Israel, not an IED!).

That said, I'm not only in contact with Abossi, but with a number of other ex-IrAF officers. In other cases, I 'at least' interviewed many of them. Attached below is page 9 from the book 'Arab MiGs Volume 6', which is about to be published in one month from now. It is containing the first part of 'Acknowledgments' - expression of authors' gratitudes for help we (I'm not the only author of these books) have received while researching for that project. It's listing some of them (together with dozens of other Arab officers of various ranks) - including Abossi.

...and you have absolutely no clue about all of this. :doh:

- Because you're so endlessly dumb and ignorant, you say I lie and there was never any Brig-Gen Ahmad Sadik in the IrAF.

Ironic is that it would be easy for you to check if there was any or not. All you need to do is to register on ACIG.info forum - and find hundreds of his posts there (indeed, even some of his discussions with few retired IRIAF pilots that used to post there).

If you would have at least a trace of decency, you could ask me for the IP from which he was posting, so to find out where was he at the time he used to post there. But, of course, a genuinely dumb and jalous liar like you would never come to the idea to do so (and, hand at heart: meanwhile you would need plenty of apologising to bring me as far as to provide such information to such a nifty character like you). :D

- You dare discussing my reliability, and are 'providing evidence' in form of citations of specific forums from which I should have 'run away'. Actually, you have no trace of clue what happened in what case or where, and thus must construct additional lies.

For example, you babble about tanknet: I used to post there back in 1991-2001 period, when they were babbling all sorts of bullshit about Iraq and Iraqis, and propagating an invasion that then followed in 2003 - as was very popular in the West at that time. I've had my account suspended for about a week, for 'infraction', precisely because I told one of admins that he's babbling bullshit about Iraqis (just like now I'm telling you that you're bullshitting about me and my research). They have lifted that suspension one week later, and they have called me - several times - to come back and post there again, but I never cared to go there again. Why should I, if they - exactly like you - know everything so much better? :D

Then you babble about iraqimilitary.org forum, and lie that Hayder and whoever else have 'shown my lies' and I couldn't answer any of their questions.

Here's the link to the last thread where I attempted to talk with them:
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtop ... 7&start=30

Come on, stupid: click that link and point me at the place where I have avoided answering any of their questions?

And why do you lie about me 'running away'? As can be easily seen, Hawkeye was actually asking me to stay...

BTW, I doubt a dumbass like you could even imagine: one of gentlemen you have mentioned is meanwile (secretly?) contacting me, and turned into one of my most-important sources about ex-IrAF. Indeed, he's mentioned in the PDF file attached below too.

Since I doubt this is making understandable for you how endlessly dumb you are, let me continue...

- I should have 'escaped from 'Aviation Forum'... I never heard of any such forum, so I guess you mean the Key Publishing forum, i.e. the former forum of the 'Air Forces Monthly' magazine.

This is another nice illustration of how clueless you are. I used to be active there in 2000-2001, shortly after that forum was established. There was a bunch of true calibres there, including ex-F-15s, ex-B-52s, ex-MiG-21 people (an Indian MiG-21-pilot with a confirmed kill from 1971 War with Pakistan, for example), even some ex-intel people (like Sean O'Connor, who used to run the blog http://geimint.blogspot.co.at/2008/12/r ... fense.html - before starting to work for Jane's; that's at least the last I've heard from him)... then the best-ever Dutch plane spotter that crossed my way (he's meanwhile working for the Dutch MOD) etc.

But, there was no admin: nobody from Key Publishing was there to take care of the order on that forum.

It was around the same time that the contemporary editor of AirForces Monthly magazine began lifting my articles: he would publish these either unsigned, or under name of some other author. I didn't mind him doing so with smaller articles, but when he did so with a big feature on Algerian Air Force at war with the GIS... (see attachment below for the first page of that feature)...well, that was too much. I complained, just like several other authors did, who had similar experience with him.

When the author whose name that editor misused complained too (it's going to mean absolutely nothing to such a stupid like you, but the gentlemen in question is certain Dr Michael Knights, working for WINEP in the DC), editor cancelled his cooperation with all of us - not only with me - instead of offering an apology.

Ironically, around the same time, another editor of a certain magazine published by Key Publishing DID apologise for lifting one of my articles - just like editors of this very website did too (yes, somebody from f-16.net has lifted one of my articles too, back then; it was removed as soon as I complained, though).

Whether by accident or design, a bunch of Pakistani idiots then appeared on that forum, started calling us (not only me) names and liars. Result: everybody who had something serious to post there, stopped doing so. Nobody 'run away', especially not because we couldn't answer some questions. This is easy to check: that forum has archive, and you can find my posts under 'Tom' there.

Instead of posting there, some of us then intensified the work on ACIG.info (former ACIG.org), others founded Secret Projects forum, or did something else.

All of this happened at the time you were still enjoying the advantages and luxuries of lovely rule by Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti...

Whatever, bottom line is: I don't really like saying it, and you're not going to like 'hearing' it again, but you're really a genuinely primitive, ignorant and jalous dumbass. You have absolutely no clue about me or my work, but are stupid enough to think you can discuss it. You're so dumb, you're presenting yourself as a former Mirage pilot - but can't recognize HUD-simbology of your own aircraft...? You're such a fool, while hating me from the bottom of your heart, you are misusing MY artwork of the Mirage F.1EQ '4014' as your avatar (which you've probably lifted here; you are plagiarising my article on Tu-22s (originally published in AirEnthusiast magazine, back in 2002) - i.e. doing exactly what certain dubious characters did so often to me over the time... and on the top of all of this, you failed to answer even 1 (in letters: ONE) question of mine so far - but consider yourself as some kind of 'authority' that can use your single brain cell to gauge me as 'pro-Iranian regime'....? :D

And still: after writing all of this, somehow I actually pity you. You're such a joke, it's actually sad.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 06:28
by milos984
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari you bull-shitting around here? and even ejection-history.org.uk confirmed it was F-5, you love to be idiot and this came fit to you, because you're officially idiot and liar.

Sorry, where he wrote that Lashghari flow a F-4???

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 01:30
by old.iraqi.air.force
Typical primitive Iraqi propaganda. I can't believe any sane person is ready to belive this...

If you love to insist on such nonsense, then at least keep in mind: Lashgari flew already the fourth IRIAF jet shot down by Iraqis in September 1980. The first was F-4E flown by Shams-Beigi/Ramezani, second F-4E flown by Eskandari/Ilkhani, and third was Lashgari's wingman...

But because Lashgari was the first to get captured by Iraqi ground troops (who have captured him inside Iran, BTW) clowns like you consider him 'evidence of Iranian aggression'.
Did you actually re-read what I've posted about Lashgari...?

Are you grasping for straws - or just insisting on presenting yourself as an even bigger stupid than anybody can imagine?

Nah.. wait... I am going to admit a mistake now: I was wrong calling you a 'clown'.

A clown is somebody paid to play dumb. A professional.

You're genuinely a primitive, ignorant and jalous dumbass.

Be patient I'm translating the documents and i will post the the original as well, to prove to you again you're the only primitive, and ignorant A+++ in this universe as usual, because you have no idea about the background of Iran-Iraq war and just keep posting comments with no single evidence, and lying to improve the image of Tehran's Mullahs (showing them such as victims, and we start the war on them for no reason).
You're full of hatred for Iranians,

I don't hate Iranian people at all i have all respect to them and their culture, my hate to Iranian regime and the terrorism of Tehran's Mullahs, and the scum such Khomeini and Ahmadinejad..etc

and despise me because I've published 3 books and few articles covering (between others), Iranian air force. You didn't read a single of books in question, but in your illusion of grandeur, you 'know' about their content. And you 'know' this so well, that you failed to pay attention at the fact that I've researched and published three times as many books, and about ten-fold more articles about Arab air forces....

I despise the book and the way describe our air force and our airmen.. And you know very well what you have wrote in that book, plus the clear aligned to Iranian allegations such as 250 kills 164 by F-14s, 3 Iraqi MIGs shot down in one missile..etc
The second thing is: what Iranian F-14's you try to make it legend!!? barely 17 or maximum 20 Iranian F-14's from the first day of the war was active in less then %60-40 combat capability,most of them being shot down or damaged or even crashed, Who is the victim of Iranian F-14's and their rank and how many?? ask me ask Maj-Gen Alwan al-Abossi ask Maj-Gen Mokhalad AbdulKarim ask many other Iraqi pilots.. If i want to compliment and stand alongside with Iran against Iraq (barely Iranian F-14's achieved 9 kills against Iraqi jet, during 8 years of war, through 400000 four hundred thousand Iraqi combat sorties. So what Iranian F-14 talk about and this 164 kill ratio come from where?
Have you any idea there is Iranian F-14 flew into the water in 1984 hunted by Su-22 in mission to bomb cement plant near Bandar Khomeini..

- You boast with your contact to Maj-Gen Alwan al-Abossi (IrAF, ret.). Ironically: because you have never read any of my books or articles, you have no clue that I'm in contact with him since years - via Group 73 Historians (<= click it, dummy, it's a link to a webiste of a group of enthusiast Egyptian historians, researching about Egyptian military at wars with Israel, not an IED!).

That said, I'm not only in contact with Abossi, but with a number of other ex-IrAF officers. In other cases, I 'at least' interviewed many of them. Attached below is page 9 from the book 'Arab MiGs Volume 6', which is about to be published in one month from now. It is containing the first part of 'Acknowledgments' - expression of authors' gratitudes for help we (I'm not the only author of these books) have received while researching for that project. It's listing some of them (together with dozens of other Arab officers of various ranks) - including Abossi.

If you may ask (the first letter of his name (A,ع) usually you send hi through him to Maj-Gen Alwan, to ask Maj-Gen Alwan who told him to stop contact with you? then Maj-Gen Alwan will answer you that Mirage pilot on F-16.net since one year or so, and Maj-Gen Alwan reply to you only one time about October war no more no less, no Iraq-Iran war details no gulf war 91. you tried to ask him some questions through some Egyptians guys but he didn't answered the way you want, and this wasn't all, even his relative (Hawkeye from iraqimilitary.org) when he came to me and ask Maj-Gen Alwan about assistance in the history of Iraqi AF in particular to you, I've discover the same fashion in your speak and nothing different, So i asked to wait before given any information.. And here we are after two or three years meeting each other again and i was completely alright.
I'm not only in contact with Abossi, but with a number of other ex-IrAF officers. In other cases, I 'at least' interviewed many of them

I don't believe you form some reasons:
1.Any one of us if he desire or accept to make interview with press he ask about the journalist background, and none of our ex-IrAF did except Maj-Gen Alwan talk to you for once.
2.You claim you met ex-IrAF pilots while %90 of your information wrong so how commensurate with that? I'm afraid your interviews with ex-IrAF pilots such as your claim of visiting Iraqi Air Force Academy in Tikrit..!
3.You interviewed many ex-IrAF pilots and you didn't know the correct number of squadrons..!

...and you have absolutely no clue about all of this.

- Because you're so endlessly dumb and ignorant, you say I lie and there was never any Brig-Gen Ahmad Sadik in the IrAF.

Ironic is that it would be easy for you to check if there was any or not. All you need to do is to register on ACIG.info forum - and find hundreds of his posts there (indeed, even some of his discussions with few retired IRIAF pilots that used to post there).
If you would have at least a trace of decency, you could ask me for the IP from which he was posting, so to find out where was he at the time he used to post there. But, of course, a genuinely dumb and jalous liar like you would never come to the idea to do so (and, hand at heart: meanwhile you would need plenty of apologising to bring me as far as to provide such information to such a nifty character like you).

Do you know what part i love of you Tom? everything you said totally apply on you, especially when you talk about the stupidity and lies it's looks like you describe yourself..I didn't registered on iraqimilitary.org which is Iraqi forum, and now you wan't me to register on your ACIG!?
You kidding me or stupidize youself or what!
Tell you what Tom? why you feel shy? make it open invention to Tehran with one way ticket..
Back to main subject,why should i register on your ACIG to know who is Brig-Gen Ahmad Sadik? provide him from which Batch, what aircraft he served on, from what squadron,in what air base he served, his picture since he decided to appear to the public and co-author book with foreign journalist. Otherwise why don't you admit you made this fictional character from your imagination to grant legitimate cover to Iranian false claims such as air kills and MIG-25 down by F-5..etc
- You dare discussing my reliability, and are 'providing evidence' in form of citations of specific forums from which I should have 'run away'. Actually, you have no trace of clue what happened in what case or where, and thus must construct additional lies.
For example, you babble about tanknet: I used to post there back in 1991-2001 period, when they were babbling all sorts of bullshit about Iraq and Iraqis, and propagating an invasion that then followed in 2003 - as was very popular in the West at that time. I've had my account suspended for about a week, for 'infraction', precisely because I told one of admins that he's babbling bullshit about Iraqis (just like now I'm telling you that you're bullshitting about me and my research). They have lifted that suspension one week later, and they have called me - several times - to come back and post there again, but I never cared to go there again. Why should I, if they - exactly like you - know everything so much better?

And why you didn't reply on that thread (Tom Cooper's reliability)tank-net.com because you didn't have answer to their questions and as always all people wrong and you're the only one rights and know everything. i don't believe your lies till we hear the viewpoint of the other party because i will prove now you distortion of facts again.

Then you babble about iraqimilitary.org forum, and lie that Hayder and whoever else have 'shown my lies' and I couldn't answer any of their questions.

Here's the link to the last thread where I attempted to talk with them:
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtop ... 7&start=30

Come on, stupid: click that link and point me at the place where I have avoided answering any of their questions?

And why do you lie about me 'running away'? As can be easily seen, Hawkeye was actually asking me to stay...

BTW, I doubt a dumbass like you could even imagine: one of gentlemen you have mentioned is meanwile (secretly?) contacting me, and turned into one of my most-important sources about ex-IrAF. Indeed, he's mentioned in the PDF file attached below too.

Since I doubt this is making understandable for you how endlessly dumb you are, let me continue...

See your lies here, you post another links to another thread claiming this was the reason why you left from iraqimilitary.org while the main reason was the hot discussion between you and Hayder,raaft and Hawkeye on this thread page 3 and 4 http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=71&start=30 let you run away from that forum. see who is the real stupid here?, you think people can't reach your realty, but because your foolish it didn't take long time.

- I should have 'escaped from 'Aviation Forum'... I never heard of any such forum, so I guess you mean the Key Publishing forum, i.e. the former forum of the 'Air Forces Monthly' magazine.

This is another nice illustration of how clueless you are. I used to be active there in 2000-2001, shortly after that forum was established. There was a bunch of true calibres there, including ex-F-15s, ex-B-52s, ex-MiG-21 people (an Indian MiG-21-pilot with a confirmed kill from 1971 War with Pakistan, for example), even some ex-intel people (like Sean O'Connor, who used to run the blog http://geimint.blogspot.co.at/2008/12/r ... fense.html - before starting to work for Jane's; that's at least the last I've heard from him)... then the best-ever Dutch plane spotter that crossed my way (he's meanwhile working for the Dutch MOD) etc.

But, there was no admin: nobody from Key Publishing was there to take care of the order on that forum.

It was around the same time that the contemporary editor of AirForces Monthly magazine began lifting my articles: he would publish these either unsigned, or under name of some other author. I didn't mind him doing so with smaller articles, but when he did so with a big feature on Algerian Air Force at war with the GIS... (see attachment below for the first page of that feature)...well, that was too much. I complained, just like several other authors did, who had similar experience with him.

When the author whose name that editor misused complained too (it's going to mean absolutely nothing to such a stupid like you, but the gentlemen in question is certain Dr Michael Knights, working for WINEP in the DC), editor cancelled his cooperation with all of us - not only with me - instead of offering an apology.

Ironically, around the same time, another editor of a certain magazine published by Key Publishing DID apologise for lifting one of my articles - just like editors of this very website did too (yes, somebody from f-16.net has lifted one of my articles too, back then; it was removed as soon as I complained, though).

Whether by accident or design, a bunch of Pakistani idiots then appeared on that forum, started calling us (not only me) names and liars. Result: everybody who had something serious to post there, stopped doing so. Nobody 'run away', especially not because we couldn't answer some questions. This is easy to check: that forum has archive, and you can find my posts under 'Tom' there.

Are you sure this was the main reason? actually you pathetic.

ignorant and jalous

Jealous of what? of your misery or your lies or what? just tell me?

presenting yourself as a former Mirage pilot - but can't recognize HUD-simbology of your own aircraft...?

Just another lie by you and here the discussion to let people see how you make lies and distortion of facts.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8293&start=75

while hating me from the bottom of your heart,

I don't hate you, but i hate your behavior and your prejudice the right of Iraqi AF and your fabrication stories which have not unfounded.
you are misusing MY artwork of the Mirage F.1EQ '4014' as your avatar (which you've probably lifted here

May i ask what is the relation between Capt. Muhalab and Mirage F.1EQ '4014'?
Now this is one of your good information about Iraqi AF and the interviews you have made with ex-IrAF? now i got to understand why you said he is died! so all your tough Capt. Mokhalad AbdulKarim is the same Capt. Muhalab..
Now i will leave this decision to you (isn't internet and forums information?) because all ex-IrAF know very well when Capt. Muhalab died (on what year and why) and you probably ask why should all IrAF knows his death story? because something related with Jordan..etc, So if you really have met an Iraqi pilots before you shouldn't fall in this mistake.

you are plagiarising my article on Tu-22s (originally published in AirEnthusiast magazine, back in 2002) - i.e. doing exactly what certain dubious characters did so often to me over the time...

I did said many time and this time again, this story was issued on magazine in 1994 on the anniversary of lieutenant colonel Ibrahim Tu-22 pilot who involved in that mission,
- You may ask again in any number of that magazine?: how may i remember the number of that magazine after 21 years ago?
-How i got all this details?: by Tu-22 navigator pilot, who was sharing his memoirs on iraqimilitary.org under title name (diary Badger falcon مذكرات صقر الباجر) through active member F-1
-Who translated?: Hawkeye.
Now have we done of this part?

and on the top of all of this, you failed to answer even 1 (in letters: ONE) question of mine so far - but consider yourself as some kind of 'authority' that can use your single brain cell to gauge me as 'pro-Iranian regime'....? :D

Where, when, how, what answer?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 02:26
by old.iraqi.air.force
you are misusing MY artwork of the Mirage F.1EQ '4014' as your avatar (which you've probably lifted here

BTW can we get some discount of that poster! at lest Capt. Mokhalad AbdulKarim risk his life and saw the hell to achieve all that victories, and now you're making some good money of it..
Life is wonderful some people fight and some other benefit of them...

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 02:53
by oldiaf
Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 07:24
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also

I've put this dumbass on igno, so no clue what is he babbling this time... but, is he now coming with the legend of IRIAF F-14s scoring 'only' 9 kills against Iraqis?

Wow: last time I've heard such nonsense from any Iraqi, it was 8 kills. :D

Curiously, the person in question couldn't explain how comes that these 8 aircraft were the best-equipped and flown by best IrAF pilots too.

Ah whatever: I doubt he's ever going to answer your question, but it's funny to see that the number even increased over the years. :D

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 20:40
by nikolaos
oldiaf wrote:Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..


How many Iraqi aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ?
How many losses by F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers are confirmed by Iraf ?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 00:40
by oldiaf
nikolaos wrote:
oldiaf wrote:Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..


How many Iraqi aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ?
How many losses by F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers are confirmed by Iraf ?

At least 4 MiG-21 + 2 Su-22 + 1 MiG-23BN were lost for unknown reasons while performing combat missions.
Others including 2 MiG-21 + 2 Mirage F.1EQ + 1 Super Etendard were reported to be lost due to ground or water impact during turning while in combat + 1 MiG-21 were in solo training mission over gulf waters not in combat.
How many lost to F-4 or F-5 ... No clue

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 06:25
by tomcooper
nikolaos wrote:
oldiaf wrote:Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..


How many Iraqi aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ?

According to the document titled 'An Analytical Study on the Causes of Iraqi Aircraft Attrition During the Iran-Iraq War, prepared by the IrAF Intelligence Department in 1992, the IrAF lost a total of 168 aircraft during that war, and not one of these for 'unknown' reasons.

How many losses by F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers are confirmed by Iraf ?
The above-mentioned document does not provide a clear break-down of losses to specific types in IRIAF service. It only says that 18 IrAF aircraft were shot down in 'air combat', while nearly 50% should've been shot down by 'AAA and Strelas' (SA-7 and likes), and nearly 25% by HAWKs.

Sadly... and as concluded not only in another thread here, but in a number of other discussions elsewhere at earlier times (for example on a conference about Iran-Iraq War held by Western scholars in London, back in 2010), IrAF official documentation is generally unreliable, i.e. plenty of figures it contains are doctored (usually for reasons related to 'safety' of the officers that signed them). In the case of this study, the figure of 168 losses does not match known IrAF pilot losses (i.e. this figure of 168 aircraft is too low by at lest 40), but indeed a significant number of well-known losses are simply omitted (for example: this study does not include even one of losses where the aircraft in quesiton was damaged in combat but written off after making some sort of 'landing' inside Iraq).

There is a number of other irregularities too. For example: the number of losses in air combats (as mentioned above: 18) stands in diametral opposition to a number of high-level Iraqi efforts to counter the IRIAF, such like high-profile Saddam's personal involvement in spreading rumours about IRIAF in order to cause Tehran to curb its interceptor operations (why would Saddam start spreading rumours about IRIAF F-14-pilots intending to defect if F-14s were 'non-operational' and 'not effective' as Iraqis say?); purchase of 18,000 SAM-rounds during the war (why if IRIAF 'disappeared from skies after first 6 months of war' as Iraqis say? ; spending of nearly US$2 billion to develop ECM against AWG-9/AIM-54 weapons system but less than 10% of that sum to obtain better chaff & flare dispensers (why if up to 70% of IrAF losses should've been caused by 'AAA and Strelas'...?) and others...

Furthermore, a closer study of IrAF losses from that war with help of Iraqi sources and on case-by-case basis, shows that Iraqis didn't know the actual reason in nearly 50% of about 200 aircraft losses the IrAF suffered during that war.

On the contrary: Iraqis not only developed a number of misconceptions about the IRIAF, actual status of its equipment and armament, and efficiency of the same, but until today, Iraqis also have no clue about sheer existence of such systems like APX-80/81 in Iranian service (despite their widespread and highly-effective use by IRIAF interceptor crews).

Finally, that study does not include any helicopter losses (estimated at 'more than 100' even by Iraqis themselves). Reason: majority of helicopters were operated by the Iraqi Army Aviation Corps.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 08:50
by oldiaf
That report will leave only 9 aircrafts to be lost to F-4 and F-5 .. If we take 9 as losses to F-14

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 10:44
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:That report will leave only 9 aircrafts to be lost to F-4 and F-5 .. If we take 9 as losses to F-14

...which is ridiculous, to put it mildy.

Worse yet, that study is leaving out much more. It's leaving out all the aircraft written off after reaching Iraq, all the 'own goals' (like one of first Mirage F.1EQ-losses, or that Il-76 shot down by SA-3s over Baghdad on 23 September 1980), etc., etc., etc., and insists on 'all our losses were to AAA and Strelas'.

And, again: it shows the IrAF had no clue about what's actually going on in air warfare, foremost because of application of top secret technology by the IRIAF.

Overall, that study is a 'nice weather' thingie, scratching the surface but far away from revealing the full story. One can only compare it with 'quality' of various Israeli reports about their losses during wars with Arabs.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 11:13
by oldiaf
Iam preparing some lists including examples for aircrafts hit water or ground or lost for unknown reasons or fratricide kills

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 11:48
by oldiaf
Some examples of Iraqi Aircrafts lost during the war with Iran for unknown reasons :
1- MiG-21UB Squadron 11 ..... May 3 1987
A MiG-21UB Pilot Major Adnan Abdullah Alwan Alshimary with him was a Captain called Mikhlif.
The airccraft was on training mission for low flight flying and lost over the gulf.
A Two-seater Su-22 from Squadron 109 with Captain Mohammed Fiadh and Captain Mohammed Ghanim searched the area and found parts of a plane and oil spot floating over the water.

2- MiG-21 Squadron 39 1980 Lt. Hameed Mohammed Fathi
Lost near the Iraqi Iranian borders area Kushk Albasri - Alhoum ( if the translation correct ).

3- MiG-21 squadron 39 1980 Lt. Modher Mahmood
Lost over the gulf waters

4- MiG-21 Squadron 39 1980 Lt. Jasim Daikh
Lost while in recon mission over Abadan-Kharomshahr area

5- Su-22 Squadron 5 - May 2 1982 - Lt. Abdullah Jasim
Lost while in CAS during battle of Kharomshahr

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 11:51
by oldiaf
Examples of Aircrafts hit the water or ground while in combat or training :
1- Mirage F.1EQ 1986 squadron 81 Lt. Yahya AbdDhanon
Hit the water in low night attack mission on a ship with Exocet missile.

2-Super Etendard 1983 or 1984 squadron 76 Captain Kamel Husain Kadhum Alansari
Hit the water in combat mission while attack on a ship with Exocet missile

3- MiG-21 Squadron 11 1982 Captain Tariq Kadhum Hamadi
Hit the water

4- Mirage F.1EQ Squadron 79 1986 Captain Fareed Adel Sulaiman
Hit the ground near base

5- MiG-21 Squadron 14 1985 Captain Khalid Ajeel Alsadon
Hit the water near Faw peninsula

6- Su-22 Squadron 109 - Oct. 13 1980 Lt. Jasim Abd Murad
Hit ground - Shaikh Bdair area

7- Su-22 Squadron 44 1982 Captain Hatif Madlol Hamad
Hit water near Kharg Island

8- Su-22 Squadron 109 - Oct. 25 1980 Lt. Ameer Mohameed Mahmood
Hit tension wires Shaikh Bdair area

9- Su-22 Squadron 109 - 1980 Lt. Numan Razaq
Hit ground during training mission Zubair area

10- Tu-22 Squadron 18 1984 Lt.Col. Ibraheem Alfargahi ( squadron commander ) and Navigator Lt. Ali Jasim
He was just returned to Tammuz AB in Alhabaniya from 4 ship raid on Tehran , the AF ordered him to evacuate the aircraft to H3/Alwaleed AB because of intelligence reported possible Iranian raid on Tammuz AB next day ... He was exhausted and asked to postpone the evacuation for the next day but the AF insisted , so while landing he crashed into the runway.

11- Tu-16 Squadron 10 Sep. 22 1980 Crew : Colonel Adel Othman ( Squadron leader ) - Major Azhar Abdulkareem - Navigator Captain Mohanad Abdulrazaq - Navigator Lt. Abas Gitran - Sgt. Khalid and Sgt. Anwar Rzoqy..
Hit mountains near the Iranian city of Somar in the first day of the war

12- Tu-16 squadron 10 1981 - Lost control on the runway while landing killing Navigator Mohsin Ali Husain ... The aircraft was being evacuated from Tammuz AB to Saad/H2 AB

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 12:33
by oldiaf
Examples of fratricide kills
1- MiG-23BN Sep. 1980 Squadron 49 Pilot Mohammed Jafar
Hit by 2 friendly SAMs near Wehda AB near Basra while returning from combat mission.

2- Su-22 Squadron 109 Nov 4 1980 Pilot Mushrif Dhahir Abod
Hit by friendly ground troops near Basra

3- IL-76 Squadron 33 1980 Pilots Colonel Saad Abduljabar Aldhahi - Captain Adil Mohammed Yakob Altikriti - Navigator Colonel Ghanim Mahmood .
Hit by friendly SAMs while in route from Rasheed AB to Baghdad Airport

4- MiG-21 1980 Air Force college Lt. Col. Shhab Alobaidi
Hit by another MiG-21 Captain Ibraheem Yusif Altikriti at the region of Alriadh- Alhawija

5- IL-76 Squadron 3 1980 Pilot Captain Adil Mohammed Yakob
Hit by friendly SAM near Salman Pak south of Baghdad

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 12:36
by oldiaf
Regarding aircraft being hit and crashed on wayback
Su-22 1980 Squadron 1 Pilot Captain Fadhil Abdulfatah Abdulrahman - he was hit by Iranian ground troops while attacking them on the ground and managed to return with the aircraft but lost control of it and hit a mountain near Panjween area

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 13:27
by nikolaos
A question to tomcooper, are all these losses posted by oldiaf in the two previous posts included in the Iraqi document Analytical study...?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 15:40
by tomcooper
nikolaos wrote:A question to tomcooper, are all these losses posted by oldiaf in the two previous posts included in the Iraqi document Analytical study...?

Except in one case, that 'Analytical study' is not citing specific losses, i.e. it's no 'blow-by-blow', but a 'summary account' (so and so many MiG-21s, lost for this and that reason, under this and such circumstances etc.).

And, again: it does not mention any kind of 'unknowns'.

oldiaf wrote:Some examples of Iraqi Aircrafts lost during the war with Iran for unknown reasons:
Based on what document? What's the title of that document, when was that document issued, and by what authority?

Or is it so that reasons for these losses are 'unknown' to the author of whoever is writing down such losses?

(I appreciate the work of the person in question - and then a lot - and I appreciate your effort to translate it; but I need clarity if this is _officially confirmed data_ or, 'oral-type recollections'?)

Furthermore:
1- MiG-21UB
There is no 'MiG-21UB', and there was never any. IrAF has got MiG-21UMs and FT-7s.

And nobody sane would've sent any MiG-21UMs for a training mission over the Persian Gulf.

2- MiG-21 Squadron 39
No. 39 was a MiG-23MS squadron, from its establishment in 1976, until it was re-equipped with MiG-23MFs, in 1983.

4- MiG-21 Squadron 39 1980 Lt. Jasim Daikh
Lost while in recon mission
Only MiG-21Rs were used for recce: others were not equiped for such purposes.

And all IrAF MiG-21Rs were flown by No. 70 Squadron only.

2-Super Etendard 1983 or 1984 squadron 76 Captain Kamel Husain Kadhum Alansari
Hit the water in combat mission while attack on a ship with Exocet missile
This means that it's the author who does not know about the reason, i.e. this is no 'official conclusion'. Official IrAF conclusion was that this SuE was shot down by 'Saudi F-15' (for which there was no evidence either, but that's another story).

10- Tu-22 Squadron 18 1984 Lt.Col. Ibraheem Alfargahi ( squadron commander ) and Navigator Lt. Ali Jasim
This happened already in September 1980, not in 1984: Tu-22s were never deployed again to attack Tehran (or Esfahan and other places) after two were lost (to F-14s, and this is something the IrAF confirmed) in October 1980.

11- Tu-16 Squadron 10 Sep. 22 1980 Crew : Colonel Adel Othman ( Squadron leader ) - Major Azhar Abdulkareem - Navigator Captain Mohanad Abdulrazaq - Navigator Lt. Abas Gitran - Sgt. Khalid and Sgt. Anwar Rzoqy..
Hit mountains near the Iranian city of Somar in the first day of the war
'Hit mountains' is not the same like 'unknown reason'.

That said, 'crashes during combat sortie' are also not cited in that study.

BTW, actually, this Tu-16 was intercepted by F-4Es while attempting to attack TFB.3, during the opening Iraqi strike on IRIAF air bases. Col Othman was the highest-ranking IrAF officer KIA during the entire war.

Ah yes: and what's with names of the other two or three crewmembers of that Tu-16? It's at least 10 years since I've heard of this loss for the first time: these officers and other ranks have given their lifes for the 'defence' of Iraq - and it's still so that nobody can recall them?

Hm...

oldiaf wrote:Examples of fratricide kills...

Not one case of fratricide fire was mentioned in that 'Analytical Study', and not a single crash (for whatever reason or wherever it occurred). Means: add these to the 168 cited in that study - and we're a (small) step closer to actual IrAF losses of that war.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 16:03
by oldiaf
I also suprised regarding MiG-21 in squadron 39 since I know its a MiG-23 squadron shifted after the war to MiG-29

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 16:15
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:I also suprised regarding MiG-21 in squadron 39 since I know its a MiG-23 squadron shifted after the war to MiG-29

For me, No. 39 Squadron is one of better-known IrAF units (I've got their unit insignia too). The few things I do not know about that unit, but would like to find out would be serial numbers of its MiG-23MS' and MFs that wore kill markings. Also, I would like to learn more about the backgrounds of why one pilot defected to Iran flying a MiG-23 in.... I think it was in 1984?

Don't know his name, but he flew that MiG straight to TFB.3...

(BTW, that defection is not cited in that Analytical Study, so this is another case you can add to that figure of 168.)

Otherwise, 'peace-time attrition' of MiG-23MS' was heavy in all countries that operated this variant, early on. Up to 12 out of the first 16 delivered to Iraq should've been written off in different accidents already before the war. It was similar in Libya and Syria too.

Problems were multiple, but primarily related to poor manufacturing quality, lack of useful manuals and technical documentation (Libyans even hired US pilots to test-fly their MiG-23MS' and write manuals for them), and then too high expectations (caused by Soviets praising MiG-23 as 'better' than anything US-made, including F-14s and F-15s).

MiG-23UBs (two-seat conversion trainers) were nothing better. Particularly accidents like that in Libya in 2010 were frequent (aircraft falling out of skies while pilot attempted to make a roll and inverting the MiG).

So, no surprise if another few examples were lost in accidents already after the start of the war with Iran.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 16:30
by tomcooper
Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:

- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?

This was an old unit, established back in 1964, and flying Hunter F.Mk.59s. It participated in wars with Israel in June 1967, then with Kurds and again with Israel, in October 1973.

In mid-1970s, it was re-equipped with MiG-23BNs. It went into the war with Iran still equipped with that type. Originally, No. 29 Squadron had a beautiful patch with a Hawk's head, number 29 and a silhouette of a Hunter (later MiG-23BN) against the background of 'land and sea' as its crest. Later 'MiG-23BN only' (on a green pentagram, outlinned in red).

So far, everything OK. But, there's no trace - nobody can recall this squadron - after about 1983 or so. It's not listed on any ORBATS for 1991 either: the only MiG-23BN unit still active as of that time seems to have been No. 49 Squadron.

So, any clue waht happened to No. 29?

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 16:51
by oldiaf
Some accidents involving MiG-23 or MiG-21 IrAF
1- 1992 Captain Ali Aied
MiG-23UB Squadron 93
Bakr AB Balad

2- 1979 Major Basim Kadhum
MiG-23MF or MS Squadron 29
Ali AB

3- 1979 Captain Saad Khaleel Abdullah - Lt. Osama Mohammed
MiG-21U Squadron 70
Waleed AB

4-1990 Lt. Najeeb Alkubaisi
MiG-23 Squadron 29
Ali AB

5- 1971 Captain Sobhi Alkubaisi
MiG-21 squadron 11
Waleed AB

6- 1982 Captain Mehsen Alsabti - Lt. Moafaq Mohammed Yaseen
MiG-23UB Squadron 49
Tammuz AB

7- 1974 Captain Adel Khalaf Aldulaimy - Lt.Riadh
MiG-21U
Squadron 14
Crashed in Habaniya Lake near Tammuz AB during Airshow

8- 1967 Hatam Nema Alubaidy
MiG-21 Squadron 11
Habaniya AB

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 16:52
by oldiaf
tomcooper wrote:Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:

- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?

This was an old unit, established back in 1964, and flying Hunter F.Mk.59s. It participated in wars with Israel in June 1967, then with Kurds and again with Israel, in October 1973.

In mid-1970s, it was re-equipped with MiG-23BNs. It went into the war with Iran still equipped with that type. Originally, No. 29 Squadron had a beautiful patch with a Hawk's head, number 29 and a silhouette of a Hunter (later MiG-23BN) against the background of 'land and sea' as its crest. Later 'MiG-23BN only' (on a green pentagram, outlinned in red).

So far, everything OK. But, there's no trace - nobody can recall this squadron - after about 1983 or so. It's not listed on any ORBATS for 1991 either: the only MiG-23BN unit still active as of that time seems to have been No. 49 Squadron.

So, any clue waht happened to No. 29?

1990 Lt. Najeeb Alkubaisi
MiG-23 Squadron 29
Ali AB

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 16:56
by oldiaf
Another example of MiG-21 from Squadron 39 ??!
Captain Kadhum Tariq Hamodi ... Hit by AAA 1980 Faw Peninsula

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 17:51
by tomcooper
oldiaf wrote:1990 Lt. Najeed Alkubaisi
MiG-23 Squadron 29
Ali AB
Very nice.

Is it sure it was No. 29 and not No. 49 Squadron (the other MiG-23BN unit), or perhaps No. 59 Squadron (OCU for MiG-23s)?

And, to understand it better: in what relation was this information, i.e. wwhat was al-Kubaisy doing with MiG-23BNs as of 1990...?

Re. Hamoudy: sry, either he flew MiG-23s with No. 39 Squadron, or MiG-21s with some other unit.

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 07:41
by milos984
tomcooper wrote:Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:
- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?
Right, dissapearence of 29th Sqn. is interesting. Its just my guess but "something unpleasant"* happens to planes/flyers of this unit. Maybe similar like to 109th Sqn. which was saved by re-equipping to Su-25 aircrafts.

*...like collisions with water surface???

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 08:05
by tomcooper
No. 109 Squadron is a different story. In its case there's no doubt it has 'spent' (read: lost) all but two of its Su-22s during the war with Iran.

But, there are no reports about No. 29 suffering such losses (if either of two MiG-23BN-equipped units did, then it was rather No. 49; even their CO was shot down and captured by Iranians, early during the war).

Re: 164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2015, 01:23
by oldiaf
milos984 wrote:
tomcooper wrote:Talking about Iraqi MiG-23s... there's one issue that's making me curious since years, and nobody has an answer:
- What happened to No. 29 Squadron?
Right, dissapearence of 29th Sqn. is interesting. Its just my guess but "something unpleasant"* happens to planes/flyers of this unit. Maybe similar like to 109th Sqn. which was saved by re-equipping to Su-25 aircrafts.

*...like collisions with water surface???

Squadron 109 is the current squadron of Iraqi AF 12 Su-25