164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

[milos984]

Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari you bull-shitting around here? and even ejection-history.org.uk confirmed it was F-5, you love to be idiot and this came fit to you, because you're officially idiot and liar.

Sorry, where he wrote that Lashghari flow a F-4???

[old.iraqi.air.force]

Typical primitive Iraqi propaganda. I can't believe any sane person is ready to belive this...

If you love to insist on such nonsense, then at least keep in mind: Lashgari flew already the fourth IRIAF jet shot down by Iraqis in September 1980. The first was F-4E flown by Shams-Beigi/Ramezani, second F-4E flown by Eskandari/Ilkhani, and third was Lashgari's wingman...

But because Lashgari was the first to get captured by Iraqi ground troops (who have captured him inside Iran, BTW) clowns like you consider him 'evidence of Iranian aggression'.
Did you actually re-read what I've posted about Lashgari...?

Are you grasping for straws - or just insisting on presenting yourself as an even bigger stupid than anybody can imagine?

Nah.. wait... I am going to admit a mistake now: I was wrong calling you a 'clown'.

A clown is somebody paid to play dumb. A professional.

You're genuinely a primitive, ignorant and jalous dumbass.

Be patient I'm translating the documents and i will post the the original as well, to prove to you again you're the only primitive, and ignorant A+++ in this universe as usual, because you have no idea about the background of Iran-Iraq war and just keep posting comments with no single evidence, and lying to improve the image of Tehran's Mullahs (showing them such as victims, and we start the war on them for no reason).

You're full of hatred for Iranians,

I don't hate Iranian people at all i have all respect to them and their culture, my hate to Iranian regime and the terrorism of Tehran's Mullahs, and the scum such Khomeini and Ahmadinejad..etc

and despise me because I've published 3 books and few articles covering (between others), Iranian air force. You didn't read a single of books in question, but in your illusion of grandeur, you 'know' about their content. And you 'know' this so well, that you failed to pay attention at the fact that I've researched and published three times as many books, and about ten-fold more articles about Arab air forces....

I despise the book and the way describe our air force and our airmen.. And you know very well what you have wrote in that book, plus the clear aligned to Iranian allegations such as 250 kills 164 by F-14s, 3 Iraqi MIGs shot down in one missile..etc
The second thing is: what Iranian F-14's you try to make it legend!!? barely 17 or maximum 20 Iranian F-14's from the first day of the war was active in less then %60-40 combat capability,most of them being shot down or damaged or even crashed, Who is the victim of Iranian F-14's and their rank and how many?? ask me ask Maj-Gen Alwan al-Abossi ask Maj-Gen Mokhalad AbdulKarim ask many other Iraqi pilots.. If i want to compliment and stand alongside with Iran against Iraq (barely Iranian F-14's achieved 9 kills against Iraqi jet, during 8 years of war, through 400000 four hundred thousand Iraqi combat sorties. So what Iranian F-14 talk about and this 164 kill ratio come from where?
Have you any idea there is Iranian F-14 flew into the water in 1984 hunted by Su-22 in mission to bomb cement plant near Bandar Khomeini..

- You boast with your contact to Maj-Gen Alwan al-Abossi (IrAF, ret.). Ironically: because you have never read any of my books or articles, you have no clue that I'm in contact with him since years - via Group 73 Historians (<= click it, dummy, it's a link to a webiste of a group of enthusiast Egyptian historians, researching about Egyptian military at wars with Israel, not an IED!).

That said, I'm not only in contact with Abossi, but with a number of other ex-IrAF officers. In other cases, I 'at least' interviewed many of them. Attached below is page 9 from the book 'Arab MiGs Volume 6', which is about to be published in one month from now. It is containing the first part of 'Acknowledgments' - expression of authors' gratitudes for help we (I'm not the only author of these books) have received while researching for that project. It's listing some of them (together with dozens of other Arab officers of various ranks) - including Abossi.

If you may ask (the first letter of his name (A,ع) usually you send hi through him to Maj-Gen Alwan, to ask Maj-Gen Alwan who told him to stop contact with you? then Maj-Gen Alwan will answer you that Mirage pilot on F-16.net since one year or so, and Maj-Gen Alwan reply to you only one time about October war no more no less, no Iraq-Iran war details no gulf war 91. you tried to ask him some questions through some Egyptians guys but he didn't answered the way you want, and this wasn't all, even his relative (Hawkeye from iraqimilitary.org) when he came to me and ask Maj-Gen Alwan about assistance in the history of Iraqi AF in particular to you, I've discover the same fashion in your speak and nothing different, So i asked to wait before given any information.. And here we are after two or three years meeting each other again and i was completely alright.

I'm not only in contact with Abossi, but with a number of other ex-IrAF officers. In other cases, I 'at least' interviewed many of them

I don't believe you form some reasons:
1.Any one of us if he desire or accept to make interview with press he ask about the journalist background, and none of our ex-IrAF did except Maj-Gen Alwan talk to you for once.
2.You claim you met ex-IrAF pilots while %90 of your information wrong so how commensurate with that? I'm afraid your interviews with ex-IrAF pilots such as your claim of visiting Iraqi Air Force Academy in Tikrit..!
3.You interviewed many ex-IrAF pilots and you didn't know the correct number of squadrons..!

...and you have absolutely no clue about all of this.

- Because you're so endlessly dumb and ignorant, you say I lie and there was never any Brig-Gen Ahmad Sadik in the IrAF.

Ironic is that it would be easy for you to check if there was any or not. All you need to do is to register on ACIG.info forum - and find hundreds of his posts there (indeed, even some of his discussions with few retired IRIAF pilots that used to post there).
If you would have at least a trace of decency, you could ask me for the IP from which he was posting, so to find out where was he at the time he used to post there. But, of course, a genuinely dumb and jalous liar like you would never come to the idea to do so (and, hand at heart: meanwhile you would need plenty of apologising to bring me as far as to provide such information to such a nifty character like you).

Do you know what part i love of you Tom? everything you said totally apply on you, especially when you talk about the stupidity and lies it's looks like you describe yourself..I didn't registered on iraqimilitary.org which is Iraqi forum, and now you wan't me to register on your ACIG!?
You kidding me or stupidize youself or what!
Tell you what Tom? why you feel shy? make it open invention to Tehran with one way ticket..
Back to main subject,why should i register on your ACIG to know who is Brig-Gen Ahmad Sadik? provide him from which Batch, what aircraft he served on, from what squadron,in what air base he served, his picture since he decided to appear to the public and co-author book with foreign journalist. Otherwise why don't you admit you made this fictional character from your imagination to grant legitimate cover to Iranian false claims such as air kills and MIG-25 down by F-5..etc

- You dare discussing my reliability, and are 'providing evidence' in form of citations of specific forums from which I should have 'run away'. Actually, you have no trace of clue what happened in what case or where, and thus must construct additional lies.
For example, you babble about tanknet: I used to post there back in 1991-2001 period, when they were babbling all sorts of bullshit about Iraq and Iraqis, and propagating an invasion that then followed in 2003 - as was very popular in the West at that time. I've had my account suspended for about a week, for 'infraction', precisely because I told one of admins that he's babbling bullshit about Iraqis (just like now I'm telling you that you're bullshitting about me and my research). They have lifted that suspension one week later, and they have called me - several times - to come back and post there again, but I never cared to go there again. Why should I, if they - exactly like you - know everything so much better?

And why you didn't reply on that thread (Tom Cooper's reliability)tank-net.com because you didn't have answer to their questions and as always all people wrong and you're the only one rights and know everything. i don't believe your lies till we hear the viewpoint of the other party because i will prove now you distortion of facts again.

Then you babble about iraqimilitary.org forum, and lie that Hayder and whoever else have 'shown my lies' and I couldn't answer any of their questions.

Here's the link to the last thread where I attempted to talk with them:
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtop ... 7&start=30

Come on, stupid: click that link and point me at the place where I have avoided answering any of their questions?

And why do you lie about me 'running away'? As can be easily seen, Hawkeye was actually asking me to stay...

BTW, I doubt a dumbass like you could even imagine: one of gentlemen you have mentioned is meanwile (secretly?) contacting me, and turned into one of my most-important sources about ex-IrAF. Indeed, he's mentioned in the PDF file attached below too.

Since I doubt this is making understandable for you how endlessly dumb you are, let me continue...

See your lies here, you post another links to another thread claiming this was the reason why you left from iraqimilitary.org while the main reason was the hot discussion between you and Hayder,raaft and Hawkeye on this thread page 3 and 4 http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=71&start=30 let you run away from that forum. see who is the real stupid here?, you think people can't reach your realty, but because your foolish it didn't take long time.

- I should have 'escaped from 'Aviation Forum'... I never heard of any such forum, so I guess you mean the Key Publishing forum, i.e. the former forum of the 'Air Forces Monthly' magazine.

This is another nice illustration of how clueless you are. I used to be active there in 2000-2001, shortly after that forum was established. There was a bunch of true calibres there, including ex-F-15s, ex-B-52s, ex-MiG-21 people (an Indian MiG-21-pilot with a confirmed kill from 1971 War with Pakistan, for example), even some ex-intel people (like Sean O'Connor, who used to run the blog http://geimint.blogspot.co.at/2008/12/r ... fense.html - before starting to work for Jane's; that's at least the last I've heard from him)... then the best-ever Dutch plane spotter that crossed my way (he's meanwhile working for the Dutch MOD) etc.

But, there was no admin: nobody from Key Publishing was there to take care of the order on that forum.

It was around the same time that the contemporary editor of AirForces Monthly magazine began lifting my articles: he would publish these either unsigned, or under name of some other author. I didn't mind him doing so with smaller articles, but when he did so with a big feature on Algerian Air Force at war with the GIS... (see attachment below for the first page of that feature)...well, that was too much. I complained, just like several other authors did, who had similar experience with him.

When the author whose name that editor misused complained too (it's going to mean absolutely nothing to such a stupid like you, but the gentlemen in question is certain Dr Michael Knights, working for WINEP in the DC), editor cancelled his cooperation with all of us - not only with me - instead of offering an apology.

Ironically, around the same time, another editor of a certain magazine published by Key Publishing DID apologise for lifting one of my articles - just like editors of this very website did too (yes, somebody from f-16.net has lifted one of my articles too, back then; it was removed as soon as I complained, though).

Whether by accident or design, a bunch of Pakistani idiots then appeared on that forum, started calling us (not only me) names and liars. Result: everybody who had something serious to post there, stopped doing so. Nobody 'run away', especially not because we couldn't answer some questions. This is easy to check: that forum has archive, and you can find my posts under 'Tom' there.

Are you sure this was the main reason? actually you pathetic.

ignorant and jalous

Jealous of what? of your misery or your lies or what? just tell me?

presenting yourself as a former Mirage pilot - but can't recognize HUD-simbology of your own aircraft...?

Just another lie by you and here the discussion to let people see how you make lies and distortion of facts.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8293&start=75

while hating me from the bottom of your heart,

I don't hate you, but i hate your behavior and your prejudice the right of Iraqi AF and your fabrication stories which have not unfounded.

you are misusing MY artwork of the Mirage F.1EQ '4014' as your avatar (which you've probably lifted here

May i ask what is the relation between Capt. Muhalab and Mirage F.1EQ '4014'?
Now this is one of your good information about Iraqi AF and the interviews you have made with ex-IrAF? now i got to understand why you said he is died! so all your tough Capt. Mokhalad AbdulKarim is the same Capt. Muhalab..
Now i will leave this decision to you (isn't internet and forums information?) because all ex-IrAF know very well when Capt. Muhalab died (on what year and why) and you probably ask why should all IrAF knows his death story? because something related with Jordan..etc, So if you really have met an Iraqi pilots before you shouldn't fall in this mistake.

you are plagiarising my article on Tu-22s (originally published in AirEnthusiast magazine, back in 2002) - i.e. doing exactly what certain dubious characters did so often to me over the time...

I did said many time and this time again, this story was issued on magazine in 1994 on the anniversary of lieutenant colonel Ibrahim Tu-22 pilot who involved in that mission,
- You may ask again in any number of that magazine?: how may i remember the number of that magazine after 21 years ago?
-How i got all this details?: by Tu-22 navigator pilot, who was sharing his memoirs on iraqimilitary.org under title name (diary Badger falcon مذكرات صقر الباجر) through active member F-1
-Who translated?: Hawkeye.
Now have we done of this part?

and on the top of all of this, you failed to answer even 1 (in letters: ONE) question of mine so far - but consider yourself as some kind of 'authority' that can use your single brain cell to gauge me as 'pro-Iranian regime'....?

Where, when, how, what answer?

[old.iraqi.air.force]

you are misusing MY artwork of the Mirage F.1EQ '4014' as your avatar (which you've probably lifted here

BTW can we get some discount of that poster! at lest Capt. Mokhalad AbdulKarim risk his life and saw the hell to achieve all that victories, and now you're making some good money of it..
Life is wonderful some people fight and some other benefit of them...

[oldiaf]

Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..

[tomcooper]

Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also

I've put this dumbass on igno, so no clue what is he babbling this time... but, is he now coming with the legend of IRIAF F-14s scoring 'only' 9 kills against Iraqis?

Wow: last time I've heard such nonsense from any Iraqi, it was 8 kills.

Curiously, the person in question couldn't explain how comes that these 8 aircraft were the best-equipped and flown by best IrAF pilots too.

Ah whatever: I doubt he's ever going to answer your question, but it's funny to see that the number even increased over the years.

[nikolaos]

Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..

How many Iraqi aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ?
How many losses by F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers are confirmed by Iraf ?

[oldiaf]

Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..

How many Iraqi aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ?
How many losses by F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers are confirmed by Iraf ?

At least 4 MiG-21 + 2 Su-22 + 1 MiG-23BN were lost for unknown reasons while performing combat missions.
Others including 2 MiG-21 + 2 Mirage F.1EQ + 1 Super Etendard were reported to be lost due to ground or water impact during turning while in combat + 1 MiG-21 were in solo training mission over gulf waters not in combat.
How many lost to F-4 or F-5 ... No clue

[tomcooper]

Do we have hope to see the list of these 9 F-14 victories ? I think I know at least 4 of them ... But the high figure may include helicopters also.
2 Su-22 1980 Sep 29
1 Su-22 1982
1 Mirage F.1EQ 1988 July 19
These are confirmed by IrAF ... I have other aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ..

How many Iraqi aircrafts crashed without knowing the reasons ?

According to the document titled 'An Analytical Study on the Causes of Iraqi Aircraft Attrition During the Iran-Iraq War, prepared by the IrAF Intelligence Department in 1992, the IrAF lost a total of 168 aircraft during that war, and not one of these for 'unknown' reasons.

How many losses by F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers are confirmed by Iraf ?

The above-mentioned document does not provide a clear break-down of losses to specific types in IRIAF service. It only says that 18 IrAF aircraft were shot down in 'air combat', while nearly 50% should've been shot down by 'AAA and Strelas' (SA-7 and likes), and nearly 25% by HAWKs.

Sadly... and as concluded not only in another thread here, but in a number of other discussions elsewhere at earlier times (for example on a conference about Iran-Iraq War held by Western scholars in London, back in 2010), IrAF official documentation is generally unreliable, i.e. plenty of figures it contains are doctored (usually for reasons related to 'safety' of the officers that signed them). In the case of this study, the figure of 168 losses does not match known IrAF pilot losses (i.e. this figure of 168 aircraft is too low by at lest 40), but indeed a significant number of well-known losses are simply omitted (for example: this study does not include even one of losses where the aircraft in quesiton was damaged in combat but written off after making some sort of 'landing' inside Iraq).

There is a number of other irregularities too. For example: the number of losses in air combats (as mentioned above: 18) stands in diametral opposition to a number of high-level Iraqi efforts to counter the IRIAF, such like high-profile Saddam's personal involvement in spreading rumours about IRIAF in order to cause Tehran to curb its interceptor operations (why would Saddam start spreading rumours about IRIAF F-14-pilots intending to defect if F-14s were 'non-operational' and 'not effective' as Iraqis say?); purchase of 18,000 SAM-rounds during the war (why if IRIAF 'disappeared from skies after first 6 months of war' as Iraqis say? ; spending of nearly US$2 billion to develop ECM against AWG-9/AIM-54 weapons system but less than 10% of that sum to obtain better chaff & flare dispensers (why if up to 70% of IrAF losses should've been caused by 'AAA and Strelas'...?) and others...

Furthermore, a closer study of IrAF losses from that war with help of Iraqi sources and on case-by-case basis, shows that Iraqis didn't know the actual reason in nearly 50% of about 200 aircraft losses the IrAF suffered during that war.

On the contrary: Iraqis not only developed a number of misconceptions about the IRIAF, actual status of its equipment and armament, and efficiency of the same, but until today, Iraqis also have no clue about sheer existence of such systems like APX-80/81 in Iranian service (despite their widespread and highly-effective use by IRIAF interceptor crews).

Finally, that study does not include any helicopter losses (estimated at 'more than 100' even by Iraqis themselves). Reason: majority of helicopters were operated by the Iraqi Army Aviation Corps.

[oldiaf]

That report will leave only 9 aircrafts to be lost to F-4 and F-5 .. If we take 9 as losses to F-14

[tomcooper]

That report will leave only 9 aircrafts to be lost to F-4 and F-5 .. If we take 9 as losses to F-14

...which is ridiculous, to put it mildy.

Worse yet, that study is leaving out much more. It's leaving out all the aircraft written off after reaching Iraq, all the 'own goals' (like one of first Mirage F.1EQ-losses, or that Il-76 shot down by SA-3s over Baghdad on 23 September 1980), etc., etc., etc., and insists on 'all our losses were to AAA and Strelas'.

And, again: it shows the IrAF had no clue about what's actually going on in air warfare, foremost because of application of top secret technology by the IRIAF.

Overall, that study is a 'nice weather' thingie, scratching the surface but far away from revealing the full story. One can only compare it with 'quality' of various Israeli reports about their losses during wars with Arabs.

[oldiaf]

Iam preparing some lists including examples for aircrafts hit water or ground or lost for unknown reasons or fratricide kills

[oldiaf]

Some examples of Iraqi Aircrafts lost during the war with Iran for unknown reasons :
1- MiG-21UB Squadron 11 ..... May 3 1987
A MiG-21UB Pilot Major Adnan Abdullah Alwan Alshimary with him was a Captain called Mikhlif.
The airccraft was on training mission for low flight flying and lost over the gulf.
A Two-seater Su-22 from Squadron 109 with Captain Mohammed Fiadh and Captain Mohammed Ghanim searched the area and found parts of a plane and oil spot floating over the water.

2- MiG-21 Squadron 39 1980 Lt. Hameed Mohammed Fathi
Lost near the Iraqi Iranian borders area Kushk Albasri - Alhoum ( if the translation correct ).

3- MiG-21 squadron 39 1980 Lt. Modher Mahmood
Lost over the gulf waters

4- MiG-21 Squadron 39 1980 Lt. Jasim Daikh
Lost while in recon mission over Abadan-Kharomshahr area

5- Su-22 Squadron 5 - May 2 1982 - Lt. Abdullah Jasim
Lost while in CAS during battle of Kharomshahr

[oldiaf]

Examples of Aircrafts hit the water or ground while in combat or training :
1- Mirage F.1EQ 1986 squadron 81 Lt. Yahya AbdDhanon
Hit the water in low night attack mission on a ship with Exocet missile.

2-Super Etendard 1983 or 1984 squadron 76 Captain Kamel Husain Kadhum Alansari
Hit the water in combat mission while attack on a ship with Exocet missile

3- MiG-21 Squadron 11 1982 Captain Tariq Kadhum Hamadi
Hit the water

4- Mirage F.1EQ Squadron 79 1986 Captain Fareed Adel Sulaiman
Hit the ground near base

5- MiG-21 Squadron 14 1985 Captain Khalid Ajeel Alsadon
Hit the water near Faw peninsula

6- Su-22 Squadron 109 - Oct. 13 1980 Lt. Jasim Abd Murad
Hit ground - Shaikh Bdair area

7- Su-22 Squadron 44 1982 Captain Hatif Madlol Hamad
Hit water near Kharg Island

8- Su-22 Squadron 109 - Oct. 25 1980 Lt. Ameer Mohameed Mahmood
Hit tension wires Shaikh Bdair area

9- Su-22 Squadron 109 - 1980 Lt. Numan Razaq
Hit ground during training mission Zubair area

10- Tu-22 Squadron 18 1984 Lt.Col. Ibraheem Alfargahi ( squadron commander ) and Navigator Lt. Ali Jasim
He was just returned to Tammuz AB in Alhabaniya from 4 ship raid on Tehran , the AF ordered him to evacuate the aircraft to H3/Alwaleed AB because of intelligence reported possible Iranian raid on Tammuz AB next day ... He was exhausted and asked to postpone the evacuation for the next day but the AF insisted , so while landing he crashed into the runway.

11- Tu-16 Squadron 10 Sep. 22 1980 Crew : Colonel Adel Othman ( Squadron leader ) - Major Azhar Abdulkareem - Navigator Captain Mohanad Abdulrazaq - Navigator Lt. Abas Gitran - Sgt. Khalid and Sgt. Anwar Rzoqy..
Hit mountains near the Iranian city of Somar in the first day of the war

12- Tu-16 squadron 10 1981 - Lost control on the runway while landing killing Navigator Mohsin Ali Husain ... The aircraft was being evacuated from Tammuz AB to Saad/H2 AB

[oldiaf]

Examples of fratricide kills
1- MiG-23BN Sep. 1980 Squadron 49 Pilot Mohammed Jafar
Hit by 2 friendly SAMs near Wehda AB near Basra while returning from combat mission.

2- Su-22 Squadron 109 Nov 4 1980 Pilot Mushrif Dhahir Abod
Hit by friendly ground troops near Basra

3- IL-76 Squadron 33 1980 Pilots Colonel Saad Abduljabar Aldhahi - Captain Adil Mohammed Yakob Altikriti - Navigator Colonel Ghanim Mahmood .
Hit by friendly SAMs while in route from Rasheed AB to Baghdad Airport

4- MiG-21 1980 Air Force college Lt. Col. Shhab Alobaidi
Hit by another MiG-21 Captain Ibraheem Yusif Altikriti at the region of Alriadh- Alhawija

5- IL-76 Squadron 3 1980 Pilot Captain Adil Mohammed Yakob
Hit by friendly SAM near Salman Pak south of Baghdad

[oldiaf]

Regarding aircraft being hit and crashed on wayback
Su-22 1980 Squadron 1 Pilot Captain Fadhil Abdulfatah Abdulrahman - he was hit by Iranian ground troops while attacking them on the ground and managed to return with the aircraft but lost control of it and hit a mountain near Panjween area