Comparison by Spurts

New and old developments in aviation technology.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post02 Dec 2020, 23:37

marauder2048 wrote:I'm curious at to why. The Blk III Vanilla is not likely to carry AARGM-ER much.
It was really designed around internal carriage on the F-35 and being accommodated
next to NGJ on the Growler.

Oh I agree that SEAD is the Growlers game, but I am looking at how different strike aircraft perform in different roles, even ones they are not the best suited to. The Growler is not a multi-role strike fighter, though it is based on one. The mission at hand is for the aircraft to fire two anti-radiation munitions and still have four additional precision munitions to attack with. Munitions has been a pain, trying to find the best loadout that a plane would carry for a given mission set.
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Unread post03 Dec 2020, 00:14

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The Growler is not a multi-role strike fighter


Of course it is. You're just missing the wingtip AIM-9s and the gun.
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Unread post03 Dec 2020, 06:30

marauder2048 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Sorry for the confusion. In the context of my comparison I am only looking at the F/A-18E Blk III Super Hornet, as such Growler isn't a factor.


I'm curious at to why. The Blk III Vanilla is not likely to carry AARGM-ER much.
It was really designed around internal carriage on the F-35 and being accommodated
next to NGJ on the Growler.


Likely, because the Super Hornets and Growlers. Would use the existing stocks of AARGM. (AGM-88E/F) Leaving the brand new AARGM-ER (AGM-88G) for the F-35...(mainly A/C)
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Unread post03 Dec 2020, 06:32

marauder2048 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The Growler is not a multi-role strike fighter


Of course it is. You're just missing the wingtip AIM-9s and the gun.


The Growler is actually a Multi-Role Strike Fighter with heavy EW capability.
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Unread post21 Jan 2021, 12:26

I have to re-think my CAS parameters that are scored. Several of the scored items conflict with one another. Typhoon model is done, but I wish I had more actual performance data to pull from.
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Unread post21 Jan 2021, 13:45

Spurts, I don't know if you have this or not about Tiffy.


Eurofighter.jpg



It gives rather simplistic Acceleration and time to Climb. I think it's for an EF with 50% fuel and 6-8 aams. Also, I had a CAM with "initial climb" with aams and half gas, I remember (might be a little off though) it being around 61-62,000ftpm. I think more like 62 vs 61. I will see if I still have it.

As far as turn rates, it's probable like a roided out Block 30? But they are pretty hush about those numbers.


I look forward to your model. :D
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Unread post21 Jan 2021, 14:47

Thanks, that will be a useful check for low level I think. I did find a flight test test card that discussed acceleration at altitude. This plane is a powerhouse. Super Hornet thrust (high mach thrust is better though) on an "F-16-like" airframe (from a weight and profile drag POV).

I get full air missile armament
service ceiling >55,000ft
time to 35,000ft and 1.5M <2.5min
takeoff <8s
sea level 200kt to M1 30sec
Max speed Mach 2
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Unread post22 Jan 2021, 14:31

Okay so the acceleration spec I had was for 40,000ft so this gave me something for low alt subsonic and 35,000ft trans/supersonic as well as guidelines for transonic from sea level to 35,000ft. End result is I have been drastically increasing the thrust values over those of the Super Hornet (which is okay, the EJ200 may have a similar SLS rating as the F414 but the engine is very different AND the Tiffy has variable inlets for better supersonic performance). I so far I have only been able to get the Tiffy up to 1.4M at 35,000ft in 150s (using 140s from 200kt in my model since takeoff is 8s and that gives time for gear transition and some acceleration from liftoff speeds). I am doing 6BVRMs and 2 WVRMs (oh shoot, I was using Meteors, I should swap those for AMRAAMS as Meteor may not have been in the picture yet) and no drop tanks.
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 13:13

Ugh, happened again.

To the three of you that still care I made a few changes to how the comparison was being done so I will have to re run several of the comparisons. Fortunately, that is much faster than making the performance models. One circle and two circle passes will be represented better, RCS and thermal signature will also effect missile pK (I figure I will add/subtract dB RCS to pK and figure something similar out for thermal). I will also be adding a LR heavy strike mission for two weapons in the 2,000lb+ class (unless the munition has a BROACH style shaped charge so a smaller munition can penetrate). This will greatly impact the Typhoon (as it will reduce the fuel tanks available) and the F-35B (as it will have to carry the munitions externally).
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 18:37

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Ugh, happened again.
RCS and thermal signature will also effect missile pK (I figure I will add/subtract dB RCS to pK and figure something similar out for thermal).

I think that will be extremely hard to model because neither RCS and thermal signature will be the same in all direction, and thermal signature is even harder to quantify compared to RCS.
Though, I think you can factor the lock on range of missile based on thermal and RCS


sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: I will also be adding a LR heavy strike mission for two weapons in the 2,000lb+ class (unless the munition has a BROACH style shaped charge so a smaller munition can penetrate). This will greatly impact the Typhoon (as it will reduce the fuel tanks available) and the F-35B (as it will have to carry the munitions externally).

forgive me if this is too much to add.
But instead of a simple long range land strike mission, can you add an anti ship mission? :mrgreen:
So an alternative tactics that these aircraft can use is sea skimming strike, so maybe they can get very close but the speed of their munition will suffered as a result.
P/s: a side question, consider that AARGM-ER top speed is about Mach 4 when launched from high altitude, can you estimate its speed when launched from sea skimming altitude like 50-60 meters above sea surface?
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 18:45

I can find some reference but it straight, some missile is faster at high altitude but slower than other at sea level
AQM-37C can reach Mach 4 at altitude but only Mach 1 at sea level
MQM-8C can reach Mach 2.7 at altitude but about Mach 2 at sea level
Kh-31 can reach Mach 3.5 at altitude but about Mach 2.7 at sea level
SM-2 is surprisingly fast at sea level at Mach 2.8

missile.jpg
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 18:54

eloise wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Ugh, happened again.
RCS and thermal signature will also effect missile pK (I figure I will add/subtract dB RCS to pK and figure something similar out for thermal).

I think that will be extremely hard to model because neither RCS and thermal signature will be the same in all direction, and thermal signature is even harder to quantify compared to RCS.
Though, I think you can factor the lock on range of missile based on thermal and RCS

I know it isn't uniform, but I wanted to do SOMETHING to show that a large RCS plane (F-15) is easier for a missile seeker head to track than a low RCS plane (F-22). I already have pK adjustments for the ECM suites, so this is similar. I know that it won't be all that accurate, but I don't want it to be ignored either.


eloise wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: I will also be adding a LR heavy strike mission for two weapons in the 2,000lb+ class (unless the munition has a BROACH style shaped charge so a smaller munition can penetrate). This will greatly impact the Typhoon (as it will reduce the fuel tanks available) and the F-35B (as it will have to carry the munitions externally).

forgive me if this is too much to add.
But instead of a simple long range land strike mission, can you add an anti ship mission? :mrgreen:
So an alternative tactics that these aircraft can use is sea skimming strike, so maybe they can get very close but the speed of their munition will suffered as a result.

I can try to use dual role munitions when possible (like JSM), but largely the goal is the same. "At what range can the strike aircraft deliver a heavy munition?" In the JSM example, I would use the LO-LO-LO profile not the HI-HI-LO profile, as targeting at 300nm is only possible against a fixed, pre-planned, target. Actually, I could list both ranges. Fixed and Moving hardened target max attack ranges. Part of what brought this on was that I had no mission that required the Typhoon to ditch it's wing tanks for heavy munitions such as Storm Shadow.

Thank you for the suggestion. It is one more thing I don't have to go back and re-visit.
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 18:58

eloise wrote:I can find some reference ...

I always appreciate the research help. Remember that key things I am looking at for weapon selection are having a program of record in this decade to be operational on one of the fighters under review.
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 20:15

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I always appreciate the research help. Remember that key things I am looking at for weapon selection are having a program of record in this decade to be operational on one of the fighters under review.

I think apart from the common subsonic cruise missiles, for anti shipping role, it would be quite interesting to analyze supersonic weapons like Brahmos, ASM-3, Rocks, AARGM-ER
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Unread post23 Feb 2021, 11:58

And it seems I overlooked a few things when doing the F-16 data. I indicate that a Singapore standard F-16 will be used as it has the CFTs and was, at the time, the only F-16V customer to order them. I then proceeded to use weapons NOT sold to Singapore. I need to 1) pay more attention 2) make hard decisions about weather I showcase a long ranged Viper or a Viper with the latest A-G munitions.
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