Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

warbird86 · by **warbird86** » 11 Mar 2019, 18:40

knuckles wrote:Vipers were used. No.9 squadron took part. JF-17s were used as well.

One Viper bagged a two-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Indian area. Fate of 2 pilots unknown.

One JF-17 bagged a single-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Pakistani area. That pilot was captured, rescued by the Pak Army from the local mob and then handed over a few days later back to India. Lucky his ejection was safe.

No Vipers were lost on Pakistan's side, no matter how much the Indian media claims it to be true.

Thete are no twin seat MiG 21 bisons. IAF only has twin seat MiG 21 UM
Infact even the nearest twin seat MiG 21UM is in Rajasthan.

In other news an Indian military offcila told a news channel today that the AMRAAM hit a chaff round.

tomcooper · by **tomcooper** » 11 Mar 2019, 19:57

jedijedi wrote:I doubt a statement will be forthcoming.

Wait and see.

Neither the statements of Pakistani spokesman, nor Indian MEA came without their plethora of clear gaps and had their rhetoric plastered inside them.

Well, either you want to stick to facts, or you don't want.

If you want to stick to facts, then you've got to hang upon official statements. While 90% of their content is rubbish (which is still better than 99,9% of what the mass/mainstream media is reporting) essential is what is not: and in that case, the Pakistani officials are spreading lies, and the Indian not. In worst case, one specific part of what the Indian officials said ('F-16 shot down by MiG-21UPG'), remains unconfirmed.

And if it makes me 'biased' and 'frustrated' and whatever else to mistrust a government that's - principally - lying at every opportunity, so be it.

An ex IAF employee wrote that this strike even if it was carried out exactly as Indian media claims was not some big coup against Pakistani defenses. They bombed a hill a 100km from the nearest AF base.

Who said it was a 'big deal' in technical sense?

Only the Pakistanis convinced of their most vitriolic PRBS are convinced the PAF can 'protect every inch' of Pakistan.

Mass media on which side. Do you watch opinions on both sides? If so, you should know what side made the most boastful claims.

...sigh... I actually can't care less about the mass/mainstream media.

I'm in business of researching air wars and air forces like this one since 30+ years - and then as a freelancer. I'm surely never going to earn a Ferrari from what I do, but you seriously think I need the mass/mainstream media for anything?

How unfortunate for him that he retired the very next day after a strike that is being questioned by not just the opposite side, but people inside his own country and the free international press.

How about you reading the regulations of the Indian military - especially those related to the retirement date - before stating something as...sigh... 'ill-informed' as this here?

The retirement date is announced in advance (in this case in November last year), and then that's it: it cannot be negotiated, it cannot be postponned, nothing. A WWIII can break out, but the regulations say: you retire on that day.

Should you have any doubts, check what happened in the IAF in 2001 mid through the earthquake-relief operations.

That terrain would in certain senses increase risks too of being caught off guard, especially so deep into the opposite territory.

By whom?

This is credible evidence of people being shot. Nothing of this sort has come out of India and will not. Don't tell me India doesn't want to win the perception war and the government an election when global audience (and to some extent local audience) is seriously doubting their capability and claims regarding strikes.

Why should I tell you such stuff?

I'm going to tell you another 'rumour' (you're never going to understand what I mean with that, but well, I can still continue trying): the sat that was supposed to take post-strike photos broke down. That's all.

C Christine Fair...

Who's that, and why should an 'expert on global affairs' be of any kind of importance? If it has to be, give me an expert of air-launched ammo in service with the IAF (not that I really need one, but here's your chance).

The side that wants to prove a claim must present evidence. I will write in bold...

You can write this fat and in fonts 72, too: it's going to change nothing, then nothing you wrote is in any way different or countering what I wrote.

It rather seems to me you simply decided that I'm an 'India fan', and thus 'biased', and thus when I question specific Pakistani statements, then you have to drive your point home... for whatever reason.

The video isn't bullet proof evidence...

When did I say it is?

You can't be asking this question. Is that bitter frustration?

Oh my... now I'm getting it: just another troll.

OK, 'igno' and that's it. Thanks for nothing.

tomcooper · by **tomcooper** » 11 Mar 2019, 20:01

tomtom wrote:See the tail of the MiG-21 at 1:54. You can see the braking chute cable and the chute housing. Such a chute streaming can cause confusion.

Indeed. Here one of classic examples:

http://www.acig.info/forum/download/fil ... &mode=view

BTW, at least two Israeli Mirage-pilots got credited with 'confirmed kills' for actually shooting away braking parachutes of diverse MiG-21s (one from an Iraqi MiG-21, in 1967; another from an Egyptian MiG-21, in 1969).

(Before anybody jumps to any kind of conclusions: no, I do not say this is what has happened in this case, too. On the contrary, what I say is that braking parachutes of MiG-21s 'like' to deploy if that part of the aircraft receives some sort of combat damage.)

tomcooper · by **tomcooper** » 11 Mar 2019, 20:19

mixelflick wrote:Yes, I agree there could be confusion about multiple chutes. No argument there...

But then we have Indian reports early on (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI going down.

There are no 'Indian reports about an Su-30MKI going down'. Only Pakistani claims for that.

We also have Indian reports of F-16's locking up SU-30MKI's, and 4-5 AMRAAM shots at said SU-30MKI's, and allegedly the MKI's dodging them. And then the Indian PM's less than glowing commentary as to how the IAF performed/could have really used the Rafale. And finally, we're hearing about how India is changing its ROE's after this little altercation. So taking all of that into consideration, I don't see how India performed all that well...

Have you got all the info about that clash? Can you say where were F-16s, where were Su-30MKis, where were other aircraft involved? At least what was the terrain below - and how could it be influential?

I also suspect India has.

There's simply no evidence for this.

I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount...

They're going to do so, whether the Pakistanis like that or not. The reason is that Pakistan is obligued to let the Pentagon (and LM) inspect their F-16s at least two times a year.

A slightly different question is the one of what are the Pentagon and LM then going to release about their findings. If one has nothing else to gauge upon, when a PAF F-16 got shot down back in 1987 (yes, my memory happens to go that far back) official Islamabad first said that none was lost - and then maintained that version for about two months, before coming out with the version about 'fratricide fire', and that with help of same people (then working for General-Dynamics, later for LM) who also helped convince the Pakistanis their F-16s shot down 'two Soviet MiG-23MLs' (actually, they damaged one).

What a surprise then, the case is actually unclear until this very day....

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.

Well, sorry to inform you that in the case of Pakistan, this can easily take 50-60 years.

Just one example: official PAF still insists on M M. Alam shooting down '5 Hunters in less than 5 minutes', back in 1965 - no matter how much this was proven to be a lie, and that already 20 years ago.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..

There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.

The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 12 Mar 2019, 01:01

This thread has been entertaining fiction. Not my cup of tea but I like the quote from this article. Its funny that some people assume its F-16 vs Mig-21 when there is no evidence to support F-16 involvement (other than an AMRAAM piece that purported came from another part of town). New F-16 designation on the Pakistani side of the border - "JF-17"?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

Total bullsh*t

vm · by vm » 12 Mar 2019, 04:40

Excellent 1 hour report by Singapore based International - 'channel news asia' yesterday on this topic titled " Pakistan - mainstreaming of terror". The reporters went into the lanes of Pakistani towns and got video interviews of trained terrorists of jaish e mohammad, before having to make a run for it after receiving a phone call. It was all so open that the Pakistani protests of no evidence is comical.
Before we all forget, these airstikes were not dreamt up by India to pass time, they were meant to send a message regarding Pakistan's support to terror.
Also it was in Pakistans hands to prove no damage to the terrorist camps by taking journalists to the camps, but they made excuses of poor weather and TILL DATE have denied access to the camps. While strangely just 100 m away the weather seems to be fine for photographing the "impact sites".
And good luck getting the truth from a Pakistani military establishment which openly declares in Parliament that the military casualties on the border with India cannot be declared as it would effect the morale of the troops.

knuckles · by **knuckles** » 12 Mar 2019, 19:49

tomcooper wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Yes, I agree there could be confusion about multiple chutes. No argument there...

But then we have Indian reports early on (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI going down.
There are no 'Indian reports about an Su-30MKI going down'. Only Pakistani claims for that.

We also have Indian reports of F-16's locking up SU-30MKI's, and 4-5 AMRAAM shots at said SU-30MKI's, and allegedly the MKI's dodging them. And then the Indian PM's less than glowing commentary as to how the IAF performed/could have really used the Rafale. And finally, we're hearing about how India is changing its ROE's after this little altercation. So taking all of that into consideration, I don't see how India performed all that well...
Have you got all the info about that clash? Can you say where were F-16s, where were Su-30MKis, where were other aircraft involved? At least what was the terrain below - and how could it be influential?

I also suspect India has.
There's simply no evidence for this.

I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount...
They're going to do so, whether the Pakistanis like that or not. The reason is that Pakistan is obligued to let the Pentagon (and LM) inspect their F-16s at least two times a year.

A slightly different question is the one of what are the Pentagon and LM then going to release about their findings. If one has nothing else to gauge upon, when a PAF F-16 got shot down back in 1987 (yes, my memory happens to go that far back) official Islamabad first said that none was lost - and then maintained that version for about two months, before coming out with the version about 'fratricide fire', and that with help of same people (then working for General-Dynamics, later for LM) who also helped convince the Pakistanis their F-16s shot down 'two Soviet MiG-23MLs' (actually, they damaged one).

What a surprise then, the case is actually unclear until this very day....

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.
Well, sorry to inform you that in the case of Pakistan, this can easily take 50-60 years.

Just one example: official PAF still insists on M M. Alam shooting down '5 Hunters in less than 5 minutes', back in 1965 - no matter how much this was proven to be a lie, and that already 20 years ago.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..
There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.

The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

That Viper that was down in 1987.....the pilot who was flying that day is my old man. His jet came in the cross projection of the launched AIM-9 that was going for an intended MiG-23, and the missile went through the wing of the Viper. Fortunately, my old man is still flying fighters to this very day. If you want more details, PM me and we'll talk.

And now new news reports in the Indian media stating the name of the pilot to be Wing Commander Haider Shahbaz Ali. Rest assured, he's alive and well.....currently at Montgomery, Alabama. Walked into a party while declared dead.

Cheers !!!

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 12 Mar 2019, 23:03

Found this on FB.......

QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be

knuckles · by **knuckles** » 12 Mar 2019, 23:20

Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......

QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be

He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 13 Mar 2019, 00:32

knuckles wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......

QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be

He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Do you have a source to confirm that?

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 13 Mar 2019, 01:56

knuckles wrote:He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Looks like we're going to see every single F-16 pilot named until they find one that isn't around. And if they don't, then they will start naming every other F-16 aka JF-17 pilot in the list.

19 sqn is based at Bholari near Karachi in South Pakistan.

knuckles · by **knuckles** » 13 Mar 2019, 03:21

Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......

QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be

He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Do you have a source to confirm that?

Yes. He was standing in front of me.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 13 Mar 2019, 04:30

knuckles wrote:
He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Do you have a source to confirm that?

Yes. He was standing in front of me.

You care to give us a little back ground on you and how you know Wing Commander Varhaman???

knuckles · by **knuckles** » 13 Mar 2019, 04:35

Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Do you have a source to confirm that?

Yes. He was standing in front of me.

You care to give us a little back ground on you and how you know Wing Commander Varhaman???

I don't know Wing Commander Varhaman. Never heard of that name. I posted a picture of the supposed dead (PAF) Wing Commander Shahbaz Ali, former F-16 squadron commander, that the Indian media is now declaring to have been killed in a supposed dogfight. The picture was taken a few days ago at Montgomery, Alabama. He's currently attending a course at Maxwell AFB.

My background.....I did some FTE (as an engineer) time on Vipers. My dad is a Viper driver from Pakistan AF originally, hence I've been born in the air force community. PM me if you want more info.

Cheers !!!

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 13 Mar 2019, 04:43

knuckles wrote:
I don't know Wing Commander Varhaman. Never heard of that name. I posted a picture of the supposed dead Wing Commander Shahbaz Ali, that the Indian media is now declaring to have been killed in a supposed dogfight. The picture was taken a few days ago at Montgomery, Alabama. He's currently attending a course at Maxwell AFB.

My background.....I did some FTE (as an engineer) time on Vipers. My dad is a Viper driver from Pakistan AF originally, hence I've been born in the air force community. PM me if you want more info.

Cheers !!!

Many claims on all sides. So, I am sure you can see why many are somewhat skeptical. Especially, considering most have proven to be false!

In addition most here only want the truth. So, it's not about siding with Pakistan or India.

Respectfully