Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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basher54321

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Unread post18 Apr 2019, 14:56

If you had gone back you would have realised they were just parroting the Foreign Policy piece by Lara Seligman like every other news and blog site at the time and it is based on information from unnamed Pentagon Officials - so you didn't need to post it at all especially not to keep dragging this thread up. (WarIsBoring is barely a credible blog in itself)

So it is not factual information and the Su-30 claim is just a claim nothing more at this moment in time.
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Unread post18 Apr 2019, 14:59

What would success look like for the Su-30s? Would it only be a success if they bagged an F-16? BTW, I don’t think there’s any evidence that a PAF F-16 went down. The only confirmed kill is the MiG-21. But there is also no evidence that an Su-30 was lost and in this day and age, it’s very hard to cover up such a thing. Basing the success and failure of a platform off of one very brief encounter, with many details missing is rather disingenuous.

That being said, it’s quite obvious that the Indians have had their eye on the Rafale for a while and objectively it is a better overall fighter than the Su-30MKI. It has a smaller RCS, better strike capability, better radar, better sensors, better sensor fusion, better electronic warfare suite, better network-centric warfare capabilities and better air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. The only major advantage the Flankers have is lower price and superior range.
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Unread post18 Apr 2019, 18:57

Time to close this thread mods.

No Pakistan soldier or citizen died in Balakot air strike:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst
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Unread post18 Apr 2019, 22:32

pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.


No F-16 has that type of ribbed construction. The claim that the debris is from an F-16 is as bad as the people claiming the 800 litre fuel tank from the MiG-21 is an F-16 fuel tank. Sadly you are just clutching at straws in believing that bit of debris shows the tail/tail hook of an F-16. You are failing to understand that the exterior of that part with the smoothness is part of the engine heat shield on the MiG-21. Again no F-16 has that type of ribbed construction whereas the MiG-21 does.

Explain why the Indian Air Force hasn't given a briefing on that part of the debris just like they did with the radar and intelligence picture? It is because even they know a part from a MiG-21 when they see it. Again no F-16 has that type of construction. Also what you and others see as a "tail hook" is simply a stringer part of the fuselage as used on the MiG-21. If you think that is a tail hook from an F-16 then sadly you are deluding yourself!
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Unread post20 Apr 2019, 04:52

This thread has gone down the drain by repeated posting of unverified media and social media content.
I have two queries -
1. Do experts here think the USA would have a good idea of what took place on 26th and 27th given their vast surveillance capabilities , or do we give them too much credit? They couldn't locate the Malaysian jet which disappeared in the Indian ocean.
2. As per iaf reports, the f16s detected the su30s first and fired on them from a greater distance and the su30s had to take evasive action. The su30s could not even get a firing solution. Does that mean the 200 odd su30s of the iaf or Chinese or other airforces are now obsolete or at a marked disadvantage , seeing the large quantities of f16s around the world.? I am not taking the awacs into consideration as eventually the planes have to individually lock onto their targets and the air to air missiles also require a effective range.

Or was it a case of the PAF having clearance from their higher ups to fire at Indian jets which were in India, while IAF pilots didn't have clearance to fire at PAF jets which were deep in Pakistan.?
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Unread post20 Apr 2019, 16:16

Dunno about #1, but I can speak to #2.

No, it doesn't mean the IAF's SU-30MKI's are obsolete and/or at a marked disadvantage vs. F-16's. What MAY be true is that they didn't perform up to expectations. Because let's face it: The Flanker is the most feared air to air machine in the Western world. It's the one Russian built fighter that hasn't been thoroughly trounced by US made jets. As such, expectation are high - real high for it in air to air combat.

And it's easy to see why: It's big, powerful and carries a lot of gas. Great legs. Slow speed maneuverability/nose pointing authority is legendary (and I do think that's the right word to use). It can carry a staggering array of air to air weapons, although in practice 6 or so AAM's seems typical. Great thrust to weight ratio, big, powerful radar. The MKI is a 2 seater, giving it 2 minds and 2 sets of eyes.

It should give US jets up to and including the F-15 all they can handle. One would think it could certainly down an F-16, but it isn't that simple. Tactics, the man in the cockpit and other factors come into play.

So obsolete? No. But it is increasingly getting long in the tooth, and it is now playing in a stealth world - with no stealth. Remains to be seen then just how good it is. First vs. 4th gen jets and then vs. the F-35. Personally, I think it's still a good buy (SU-30 and 35 variants).

Whole lotta' capability, fearsome reputation - especially for the money.
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Unread post20 Apr 2019, 19:20

mixelflick wrote:Dunno about #1, but I can speak to #2.

No, it doesn't mean the IAF's SU-30MKI's are obsolete and/or at a marked disadvantage vs. F-16's. What MAY be true is that they didn't perform up to expectations. Because let's face it: The Flanker is the most feared air to air machine in the Western world. It's the one Russian built fighter that hasn't been thoroughly trounced by US made jets. As such, expectation are high - real high for it in air to air combat.

And it's easy to see why: It's big, powerful and carries a lot of gas. Great legs. Slow speed maneuverability/nose pointing authority is legendary (and I do think that's the right word to use). It can carry a staggering array of air to air weapons, although in practice 6 or so AAM's seems typical. Great thrust to weight ratio, big, powerful radar. The MKI is a 2 seater, giving it 2 minds and 2 sets of eyes.

It should give US jets up to and including the F-15 all they can handle. One would think it could certainly down an F-16, but it isn't that simple. Tactics, the man in the cockpit and other factors come into play.

So obsolete? No. But it is increasingly getting long in the tooth, and it is now playing in a stealth world - with no stealth. Remains to be seen then just how good it is. First vs. 4th gen jets and then vs. the F-35. Personally, I think it's still a good buy (SU-30 and 35 variants).

Whole lotta' capability, fearsome reputation - especially for the money.

I don't remember su30 being in combat with Western jets ? It was supposed to have a 400 km radar detection and 200 km tracking ability but without a proper missile , detection means it's just another radar system.
What i do recall is a Russian su24 getting shot down by the turks. Again a Russian plane was caught out and was unable to dodge a western missile.
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Unread post24 Apr 2019, 10:04

vm wrote:This thread has gone down the drain by repeated posting of unverified media and social media content.
I have two queries -
1. Do experts here think the USA would have a good idea of what took place on 26th and 27th given their vast surveillance capabilities , or do we give them too much credit? They couldn't locate the Malaysian jet which disappeared in the Indian ocean.
2. As per iaf reports, the f16s detected the su30s first and fired on them from a greater distance and the su30s had to take evasive action. The su30s could not even get a firing solution. Does that mean the 200 odd su30s of the iaf or Chinese or other airforces are now obsolete or at a marked disadvantage , seeing the large quantities of f16s around the world.? I am not taking the awacs into consideration as eventually the planes have to individually lock onto their targets and the air to air missiles also require a effective range.

Or was it a case of the PAF having clearance from their higher ups to fire at Indian jets which were in India, while IAF pilots didn't have clearance to fire at PAF jets which were deep in Pakistan.?


The F-16s fired from their Max Range from a higher altitude 40K ft vs 25K ft. The Flankers took evasive action to beat them kinematically.

F-16s also took the initiative to fire across the LOC; till then it was not a "fire at will" zone.

While the R-77 can latch-up, it also decreases the effective range; so no firing solution for the SU-30s with the R-77 against the higher flying F-16s. The brochure range of R-77 and the C5 are "similar"; the altitude made the difference between a solution and no solution.

Typically when you fire the first short at Max Range you follow in to take a follow-on shot against an out of position target which probably burned energy and tactically in a weaker situation due to the evasion. The F-16s did not follow through the initial AMRAAM shot with a second shot from a shorter distance with higher Pk.

Regarding Tailhook bath-tub from the F-16 which the ground forces quickly cleaned up:

The ribs there are not deep/stubby ribs typically seen in the interior of the Migs. The interior pictures of the Mig21 do not show shiny metal but some yellow/green painted thicker/deeper ribs.

More significantly it is the smooth exterior and the color along with the match with the notch/tailhook which gives it away. The IAF MiG21 are a completely different color (Tipnis Blue) than the dark green/gray color of the tub.
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Unread post24 Apr 2019, 10:22

pagan wrote:Regarding Tailhook bath-tub from the F-16 which the ground forces quickly cleaned up:

The ribs there are not deep/stubby ribs typically seen in the interior of the Migs. The interior pictures of the Mig21 do not show shiny metal but some yellow/green painted thicker/deeper ribs.

More significantly it is the smooth exterior and the color along with the match with the notch/tailhook which gives it away. The IAF MiG21 are a completely different color (Tipnis Blue) than the dark green/gray color of the tub.

BS, Serbia Mig-21 look exactly the same
yugo-mig21.jpg
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Unread post26 Apr 2019, 07:47

pagan wrote:
vm wrote:This thread has gone down the drain by repeated posting of unverified media and social media content.
I have two queries -
1. Do experts here think the USA would have a good idea of what took place on 26th and 27th given their vast surveillance capabilities , or do we give them too much credit? They couldn't locate the Malaysian jet which disappeared in the Indian ocean.
2. As per iaf reports, the f16s detected the su30s first and fired on them from a greater distance and the su30s had to take evasive action. The su30s could not even get a firing solution. Does that mean the 200 odd su30s of the iaf or Chinese or other airforces are now obsolete or at a marked disadvantage , seeing the large quantities of f16s around the world.? I am not taking the awacs into consideration as eventually the planes have to individually lock onto their targets and the air to air missiles also require a effective range.

Or was it a case of the PAF having clearance from their higher ups to fire at Indian jets which were in India, while IAF pilots didn't have clearance to fire at PAF jets which were deep in Pakistan.?


The F-16s fired from their Max Range from a higher altitude 40K ft vs 25K ft. The Flankers took evasive action to beat them kinematically.

F-16s also took the initiative to fire across the LOC; till then it was not a "fire at will" zone.

While the R-77 can latch-up, it also decreases the effective range; so no firing solution for the SU-30s with the R-77 against the higher flying F-16s. The brochure range of R-77 and the C5 are "similar"; the altitude made the difference between a solution and no solution.

Typically when you fire the first short at Max Range you follow in to take a follow-on shot against an out of position target which probably burned energy and tactically in a weaker situation due to the evasion. The F-16s did not follow through the initial AMRAAM shot with a second shot from a shorter distance with higher Pk.

Regarding Tailhook bath-tub from the F-16 which the ground forces quickly cleaned up:

The ribs there are not deep/stubby ribs typically seen in the interior of the Migs. The interior pictures of the Mig21 do not show shiny metal but some yellow/green painted thicker/deeper ribs.

More significantly it is the smooth exterior and the color along with the match with the notch/tailhook which gives it away. The IAF MiG21 are a completely different color (Tipnis Blue) than the dark green/gray color of the tub.

I realize what you are saying that till the f16 amraams were fired across the loc, iaf had no clearance to engage the paf planes, which were still in pak occupied kashmir, but the significant edge that the su30s should have given the iaf seems to be lacking. I know that su30s are not defensive aircrafts, but what options do India have except the mig21s ? Where were the m2ks ?
Or maybe India has to change the rules of engagement?
I am just imagining a future scenario. Suppose again the paf launch air to ground missiles from well within their area, since our air to air missiles are equally matched, how does iaf create a deterrence ? The paf just turns tail and outruns the missile.
Idea is that the enemy knows that even if it launches missiles from a distance, it's aircrafts can be taken down deep in their own territory. I don't see iaf having that capability.
Another point, suppose a plane detects that its been locked on by another in bvr mode, what options does it have except evasion.?
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Unread post26 Apr 2019, 07:59

vm wrote:Another point, suppose a plane detects that its been locked on by another in bvr mode, what options does it have except evasion.?

I know I should not reply to propaganda trolls, but hey, this might be great fun!

My reply question to you would be: how does the enemy know it is not locking onto a decoy? How does it know it did not miss other aircraft slipping by ready to take them out? How does it know this is not a deception rouse and that the other aircraft wants them to chase it?
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 07:17

eloise wrote:
pagan wrote:Regarding Tailhook bath-tub from the F-16 which the ground forces quickly cleaned up:

The ribs there are not deep/stubby ribs typically seen in the interior of the Migs. The interior pictures of the Mig21 do not show shiny metal but some yellow/green painted thicker/deeper ribs.

More significantly it is the smooth exterior and the color along with the match with the notch/tailhook which gives it away. The IAF MiG21 are a completely different color (Tipnis Blue) than the dark green/gray color of the tub.

BS, Serbia Mig-21 look exactly the same
yugo-mig21.jpg


Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.

vm wrote:I realize what you are saying that till the f16 amraams were fired across the loc, iaf had no clearance to engage the paf planes, which were still in pak occupied kashmir, but the significant edge that the su30s should have given the iaf seems to be lacking. I know that su30s are not defensive aircrafts, but what options do India have except the mig21s ? Where were the m2ks ?
Or maybe India has to change the rules of engagement?
I am just imagining a future scenario. Suppose again the paf launch air to ground missiles from well within their area, since our air to air missiles are equally matched, how does iaf create a deterrence ? The paf just turns tail and outruns the missile.
Idea is that the enemy knows that even if it launches missiles from a distance, it's aircrafts can be taken down deep in their own territory. I don't see iaf having that capability.
Another point, suppose a plane detects that its been locked on by another in bvr mode, what options does it have except evasion.?


Till the first PAF plane cross the border or released an A2G weapon or fired an A2A missile, peace time rules applied.

And no sane AF wants to fire A2A missiles in a corridor open to civilian traffic. PAF took the risk of firing across the LOC to seize the initiative. However the gambit did not serve the primary goal of scoring a Su kill; it did keep the Su out of the engagement with the lower flying F-16s which did the bombing.

And in the two months since then, a lot of Pak airspace has been closed with regular NOTAMs; PAF knows they crossed some lines and have been on the edge.

Your point of how to create deterrence is quite correct. The IAF is trying integrate MICA (M2K upgrade), Meteor (Rafale), and more recent Russian AAMs (Su30 upgrade) into its arsenal. Till that happens it does not have any edge in BVR against the AMRAAM C5 equipped F-16s. Any conflict will see losses from on the IAF also. Expect the iAF to run mixed caps with the upgraded M2Ks along with the Su30s.
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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 08:03

pagan wrote:Till the first PAF plane cross the border or released an A2G weapon or fired an A2A missile, peace time rules applied.

And no sane AF wants to fire A2A missiles in a corridor open to civilian traffic. PAF took the risk of firing across the LOC to seize the initiative. However the gambit did not serve the primary goal of scoring a Su kill; it did keep the Su out of the engagement with the lower flying F-16s which did the bombing.

And in the two months since then, a lot of Pak airspace has been closed with regular NOTAMs; PAF knows they crossed some lines and have been on the edge.

Your point of how to create deterrence is quite correct. The IAF is trying integrate MICA (M2K upgrade), Meteor (Rafale), and more recent Russian AAMs (Su30 upgrade) into its arsenal. Till that happens it does not have any edge in BVR against the AMRAAM C5 equipped F-16s. Any conflict will see losses from on the IAF also. Expect the iAF to run mixed caps with the upgraded M2Ks along with the Su30s.

Thanks. You make sense.
What's your opinion on why the iaf mig21 pursued the f16s alone into PoK ? And why its anti missile warnings were ineffective?
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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 23:06

pagan wrote:Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.



No you can't see any obvious differences. No F-16 has that type of construction. Think about it? There are plenty of F-16 maintainers, pilots and builders on this forum. Explain why no person from the F-16 community has matched up that piece to an F-16 construction? Your claim that debris shows an F-16 tail hook is complete and utter non-sense! It is just laughable and comes from this non-sense post on Twitter.

I post it to show how ludicrous the claim and desperate attempt at match up is.

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 1698814976
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Unread post28 Apr 2019, 14:08

pagan wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.




Okay so the photos you have shown don't change anything from as they were months back. If you had seen an F-16 up close or even spent time modelling one there are externally identifiable rivets, panel lines, and markings (writing) - yes even on the parts you think are smooth.

If that video had not been shot with such a poor camera phone we would be able to make some of the detail out - but as it stands there is nothing - not even one identifiable feature. The internal structure would suggest it is not an F-16 and with a high res camera you would be seeing lines and rivets etc on the external side I can assure you.
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