Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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basher54321

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 14:23

jedijedi wrote:A short video has been posted on youtube which apparently shows a single engine jet chasing a dual engine jet. It could be a F16 chasing a F15 or as the video claims a JF17 chasing a Su30. Pakistan does not have any dual engine jets so it definitely cannot be a Pakistani mock dogfight. The chaser does look like JF17 but it could just be my mind playing with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3puvqPMisZ4

Edit 2: There is a well known Indian news anchor who reported a Su 30 being shot down before even a Pakistani claimed it.



All I can tell you from running that and higher res versions from Twitter frame by frame and zoomed up is that it is impossible to tell the types outside of single engine, single tail. One version went on for a bit longer and had some kind of explosion - again impossible to tell what that was from the other side of a hedge. Anyone who thinks otherwise is literally deluding themselves.

The camera (probably a phone) has real problems with moving images - CGI would seem unlikely.


From looking at many conflicts from yesteryear even before it was easy to alter videos and photos - they are often useless because they are really not showing you enough information. The people who are bringing these up really have little understanding of what they are looking at - that often includes mainstream media.


That second crash with the dead pilot I am pretty sure is the Mi-17 crash that has killed 2 pilots. There are several videos of this that have been going round for the past few days.
Last edited by basher54321 on 03 Mar 2019, 14:47, edited 2 times in total.
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madrat

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 14:26

Turkey uncorked this genie when they crossed into both Syria and Iraq to go after 'Kurdish' terrorists.

In India's case they might have validity whereas the Turkish government has a long history of attacks on Kurds for less noble causes.
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rockstar139

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 14:51

Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089

Thanks

vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.
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Shimud

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 15:07

Folks, we can write hundreds of lines for who is responsible (or not) for what and what is/might/could be valid (or not) but based upon independent impartial analysts, no one died on the ground, no buildings damaged, an F-16 down (sorry nothing concrete yet, but LM can verify it easily as they have got personnel attached with their birds in Pakistan) and the whole story is now a made up episode.

Its worth discussing it further if there is solid proof that the "real" objective has been achieved i.e. Indians managed to hit the target (and an F-16 down, if they have a wreckage to prove it). Otherwise, its nothing more then constructing a narrative on a hollow foundation, which will eventually collapse, badly damaging the integrity and repute of its architects.
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basher54321

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 15:08

jedijedi wrote:Edit 2: There is a well known Indian news anchor who reported a Su 30 being shot down before even a Pakistani claimed it.



He has to get his information from somewhere and so do the Pakistani and Indian governments - though I would hope India today is a bit more professional than that Republic rag that doesn't seem to understand (or care?) about perhaps verifying information before putting it out.

The information in the first few days sounds like it was skewed but this is what you would expect. Basically even India and Pakistan military / governments would likely have been subject to getting misinformation themselves at least until things calmed down.
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basher54321

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 15:15

rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089


This video has also done the rounds over the past few days with some labelling it as the Wife of one of the Mi-17 Helicopter pilots.

Also found a press article:

Vijeta Mandavgane, wife of Squadron Leader Ninad Mandavgane, the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilot who was killed in the Mi-17 crash in central Kashmir’s Budgam district on Wednesday, has called for calm between India and Pakistan.

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... f-5605818/

Is there anything contrary to that?
Last edited by basher54321 on 03 Mar 2019, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
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basher54321

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 15:55

Possibly 6 IAF and one civilian actually died in the Mi-17 crash (RIP):

Squadron Leader Ninad Mandavgane was among the six Air Force officers killed after a Russian made Mi-17 crashed in an open field near Garend Kalaan village in Budgam on Wednesday. A civilian too was killed.




"Social Media Warriors, Go To The Front": Wife Of Pilot Killed In Crash

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/vijeta- ... -t-2001949
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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 17:31

This is how a crashed Viper would look like.
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basher54321

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 19:32

Yugoslav MiG-21 wreck




Wreck of MiG-21 Croatian.JPG
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basher54321

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Unread post03 Mar 2019, 21:01

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-kashmir-usa-pakistan/us-wants-to-know-if-pakistan-used-us-built-f-16-jets-to-down-indian-warplane-idUKKCN1QK0CV

ISLAMABAD/SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The United States said on Sunday it was trying to find out if Pakistan used U.S.-built F-16 jets to down an Indian warplane, potentially in violation of U.S. agreements, as the stand-off between the nuclear-armed Asian neighbours appeared to be easing.

Pakistan and India both carried out aerial bombing missions this week, including a clash on Wednesday that saw an Indian pilot shot down over the disputed region of Kashmir in an incident that alarmed global powers and sparked fears of a war.

A Pakistan military spokesman on Wednesday denied Indian claims that Pakistan used F-16 jets.

Pakistan returned the captured Indian pilot on Friday in a high-profile handover Islamabad touted as a “peace gesture”, which appeared to significantly dial down tensions, but both sides remain on high alert.

At the Line of Control (LoC), the de facto border between the two countries in the disputed Kashmir region, there was relative calm in the past 24 hours, both armies said on Sunday. But Indian security forces said they were carrying out major anti-militancy operations on their side on Kashmir and had shot dead two militants.

The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said on Sunday it was looking into reports that Pakistan used F-16 jets to shoot down the Indian pilot, a potential violation of Washington’s military sale agreements that limit how Pakistan can use the planes.

“We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information,” a U.S. Embassy spokesperson said. “We take all allegations of misuse of defence articles very seriously.”

While Pakistan has denied using F-16 jets during a dogfight that downed an Indian Mig-21 warplane over Kashmir on Wednesday, it has not specified which planes it used, though it assembles Chinese-designed JF-17 fighter jets on its soil.

Pakistan has a long history of buying U.S. military hardware, especially in the years after 2001 when Islamabad was seen as a key partner in the U.S.-led War on Terror.

Pakistan bought several batches of F-16 planes, built by Lockheed Martin Corp, from Washington before relations soured and the United States cut off subsidised sales in 2016.

It is not clear what exactly these so-called “end-user agreements” restrict Pakistan from doing. “The U.S. Government does not comment on or confirm pending investigations of this nature,” the U.S. Embassy added.

On Thursday Indian officials displayed to reporters parts of what they called an air-to-air missile that can only be fired from F-16 jets, alleging they were used to bomb its side of the disputed Kashmir border on Wednesday.

A Pakistan military spokesman told reporters on Wednesday that Pakistani jets “locked” on Indian targets to demonstrate Pakistan’s capacity to strike back at India, but then chose to fire in an empty field where there would be no casualties.

Pakistan said its mission on Wednesday was in retaliation for India violating its airspace and sovereignty a day earlier, when Indian jets bombed a forest area near the northern city of Balakot.

India said it struck at militant training camps, but Islamabad denied any such camps existed, as did some villagers in the area when Reuters visited.

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popcorn

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Unread post04 Mar 2019, 02:57

How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post04 Mar 2019, 04:06

popcorn wrote:How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?


When 1.3 billion Indians say it is. Bye Buy US F-21.
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Unread post04 Mar 2019, 04:34

rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089

Thanks

vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Are you deliberately posting fake news here ? She is clearly the wife of one of the occupants of the crashed helicopter. Kindly keep the fake stuff in your favourite Pakistani defense site. Let's not ruin this forum.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post04 Mar 2019, 05:44

So, we have no credible information to confirm that a Pakistani F-16 was lost???
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Unread post04 Mar 2019, 07:52

popcorn wrote:How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?


Exactly. Actually they have played it smart. Lured them in.

weasel1962 wrote:
popcorn wrote:How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?


When 1.3 billion Indians say it is. Bye Buy US F-21.


As the whole episode and consequent events have unfolded, only one thing is certain. Indians have shot themselves in their feet.

vm wrote:
rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089

Thanks

vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Are you deliberately posting fake news here ? She is clearly the wife of one of the occupants of the crashed helicopter. Kindly keep the fake stuff in your favourite Pakistani defense site. Let's not ruin this forum.


Media vm, its media. You have already written in one of your posts that the local media is rubbish.
The greatest tool of modern warfare is media. Upon someone's insistence (from South Asia), I happened to listen to the local Indian English news channels and was aghast. I reckon that the war hysteria has been developed by media. The sane minds in both countries, including former diplomats and armed services officers, are talking sense.

Corsair1963 wrote:So, we have no credible information to confirm that a Pakistani F-16 was lost???


No. They have apparently discovered an AMRAAM but still trying to find out the F-16, which was attached to this AIM-120C (I can't help but to write it like this.)

I feel that the current government in India has exploited the situation for their electoral gains. With just 40-50 days remaing in general elections, this episode is basically the cover page of current ruling party's election manifesto. Go there and see how they are using it as a tool to exploit the religious sentiments, creating social divide and instigating masses against Pakistan.
Pardon. I am digressing from the original topic...

OK, back to Mirages' hits or F-16 down or another IAF bird in pieces. Any conclusive proof? (As of now, its really a mirage.)
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