Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Discuss air warfare, doctrine, air forces, historic campaigns, etc.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 9110
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 00:17

Indian Radar Data That Supposedly Proves They Downed An F-16 Is Far From "Irrefutable"

India's evidence doesn't come anywhere close to definitively proving what did and did not happen during the air battle over Kashmir in February.

By Joseph Trevithick and Tyler RogowayApril 8, 2019


QUOTE:

It's also worth pointing out that India has not provided any evidence of the F-16 shoot down beyond the radar track "vanishing." Kapoor only showed two still radar images, as well. Without having more data and context, we have no way of knowing conclusively that the contact disappeared and never reappeared or that it was an F-16, to begin with. Electronic warfare and the limitations of the airborne early warning and control system could have been factors, as well. The mountainous terrain and other ground clutter may have masked the Viper's radar signatures temporarily and the fighter could have dropped into the "doppler notch" of the airborne radar system. There are so many possible explanations that cannot be ruled out without more information and at the very least, full motion video of the tactical picture, not just a few hand-picked screenshots.

There is no indication that Pakistan launched any combat search and rescue effort to recover the crew of the purportedly downed F-16, which one might have expected to see, either.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... HxJrI_xJx4
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2995
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 00:56

weasel1962 wrote:What the IAF did admit to, although I'm not sure whether IAF realises, is that the brief is an acknowledgement that the Mig-21 was 20km inside Pakistani LOC when the track was on and lost. Will do a map overlay with scale.

More than justifies F-16 use, if actually used.


Location is 5 mile radius around coord 33°06'36"N 73°42'43"E, near Mirpur and Mangla as per briefing. Looks like PAF and IAF planes was ~5-10km of each other, well within AIM-9 range, no need AIM-120.
Attachments
Battlezone.png
Battlezone w tracks.png
Offline
User avatar

marsavian

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1722
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 01:00

The mountainous terrain and other ground clutter may have masked the Viper's radar signatures temporarily and the fighter could have dropped into the "doppler notch" of the airborne radar system.


Not only the notch but maybe even just head-on if it was clean as the F-16 is quite LO as 4th gen go. I don't understand this obsession with proving an F-16 went down, the fact that the Indian Premier is moaning about Rafales not being there might be a giant cluestick how it went down. Those Israeli jamming pods are great but they have to be pointing in the right direction at the time ;).
Offline

pagan

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: 05 Mar 2019, 10:10

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 05:05

There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.
Attachments
f_164.jpg
Under Belly of PAF F-16
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2995
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 10:10

One problem with the IAF story. Too far. The location of the 1st chute is >30 km from where Mig-21 was shot down. That's outside the range of the R-73. Not conclusive but it begs the question why an F-16 would be heading NW when its base is in a very different direction.

Image
Offline

vm

Banned

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2019, 08:59
  • Location: India

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 11:12

weasel1962 wrote:One problem with the IAF story. Too far. The location of the 1st chute is >30 km from where Mig-21 was shot down. That's outside the range of the R-73. Not conclusive but it begs the question why an F-16 would be heading NW when its base is in a very different direction.

Image

In a dogfight the first priority is not to make straight for your base but to save your b.. t by using evasive measures. In which it seems the f16 sadly failed and got shot down by the mig21.
The radar images revealed do strengthen the IAFs contention that PAF lost a fighter jet, as the sudden disappearance is a hallmark of a crash or shoot down.
Just like we see in the recent f35 crash in Japan.
Pakistan should not hide the supreme sacrifice of its pilot(s) and reveal the details, so that the family of the Pakistani pilot(s) can get closure.
Offline

vm

Banned

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2019, 08:59
  • Location: India

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 11:17

And for a supposedly ineffective bombing run, the results seem to be just fine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/worl ... istan.html

"Pakistan Premier: ‘No Use’ for Armed Militias Anymore
Prime Minister Imran Khan speaking to reporters on Tuesday. “We will not allow armed militias to operate anymore,’’ he said.
Credit
Saiyna Bashir for The New York Times

Image
Prime Minister Imran Khan speaking to reporters on Tuesday. “We will not allow armed militias to operate anymore,’’ he said.CreditCreditSaiyna Bashir for The New York Times
By Jeffrey Gettleman
April 9, 2019

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — His country nearly went to war with a neighboring enemy six and a half times its size. Militants lurk in religious schools and in the countryside.

And with inflation soaring and debt ballooning, his finance team is scrambling, desperate to secure a multibillion-dollar rescue package to avoid economic collapse.

But Imran Khan, Pakistan’s prime minister, is apparently feeling confident about his first eight months in office — so much so that he invited a group of foreign journalists for an informal, hourlong chat on Tuesday in Islamabad, the capital.

While he seemed subdued, with puffy circles under his eyes, Mr. Khan also sought to project resolve — particularly about ridding Pakistan of the militants it once tolerated."
Offline

jedit

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 39
  • Joined: 05 Apr 2019, 23:43
  • Location: Pakistan

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 18:19

vm wrote:And for a supposedly ineffective bombing run, the results seem to be just fine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/worl ... istan.html

"Pakistan Premier: ‘No Use’ for Armed Militias Anymore
Prime Minister Imran Khan speaking to reporters on Tuesday. “We will not allow armed militias to operate anymore,’’ he said.
Credit
Saiyna Bashir for The New York Times

Image
Prime Minister Imran Khan speaking to reporters on Tuesday. “We will not allow armed militias to operate anymore,’’ he said.CreditCreditSaiyna Bashir for The New York Times
By Jeffrey Gettleman
April 9, 2019

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — His country nearly went to war with a neighboring enemy six and a half times its size. Militants lurk in religious schools and in the countryside.

And with inflation soaring and debt ballooning, his finance team is scrambling, desperate to secure a multibillion-dollar rescue package to avoid economic collapse.

But Imran Khan, Pakistan’s prime minister, is apparently feeling confident about his first eight months in office — so much so that he invited a group of foreign journalists for an informal, hourlong chat on Tuesday in Islamabad, the capital.

While he seemed subdued, with puffy circles under his eyes, Mr. Khan also sought to project resolve — particularly about ridding Pakistan of the militants it once tolerated."


What does any of this have to do with this forum, the topic at hand of F16. It is like saying someone cannot cook a meal because they failed the French Language test back in 6th grade ... or someone cannot sing because they got a traffic ticket the other day". Be relevant. It is funny how you worry so much about the great sacrifice of the supposed F16 pilot who you think went down because the great IAF says so.

1- IAF supposedly had intercepts of the radio communication between ground units and pilots.They said they intercepted comms between the planes involved, and also intercepted comms between ground forces yet they are now unable to release it for secrecy reasons ... as if this would not have alarmed Pakistanis already about improving comm security.

2- Indian Intel detected 300 mobile phone sims in Balakot building that all went dead right after the bombing. No funeral, no bodies moved. If there was some shred of truth in it, Pakistan would've already worked on signal security by the time they attacked, or at least it would have already spooked them enough to work on securing comms in the long run.

2- IAF had satellite imagery showing spice 2000 impacts that nobody else could see. They said there were supposedly 3 marks on the roof of the building at Balakot. Yet their satellites cannot find a crash site for the F16, no smoke.

3- Pakistan army couldn't stop villagers from beating up the Indian pilot, taking his video, his crashed mig 21 BIS, releasing it. Yet, they somehow hid the F16 by placing an invisibility cloak over it.

4- IAF said it has irrefutable evidence, yet not one neutral analyst has been swayed by it. Name one person who wrote about the topic who changed views after the IAF presentation.

5- The article from themedium cited earlier has Indian bias crying out loud before you even finish the introductory text in italics.

For decades when camera imagery was primitive, people said they saw lochness monster, they claimed having seen flying saucers, fast moving lights in the sky. Now, something like this is not possible. Back in 2001 someone shot the video of the first plane hitting the North Tower and this is 2019 when there are phones in everyone's hands and there is no real way to stop information from leaking out.
Evidence pro Indian trolls want everyone to believe.

1- IAF has a credible history because entire 'India' says so.
2- These images in presser are "illustrations of" what radar showed, yet believe us because India is honest and Pakistan is a known liar!
3- The videos shot by people on the ground that are a few kms away from the falling plane are credible evidence.
4- Some villagers on the ground said there were 'chutes', 'pilots' so there were shoots and pilots and it could not have been another Indian plane for sure because Pakistan's planes were counted by US officials who have a say in it, but our planes are counted by us and we Indians never lie about losses to Pakistan?
5- DGISPR (the supposed liar) was speaking the truth this once when he said pilots, just because it supports our argument. We won't believe he got the info about the same person from 2 different army units because he is supposed to be updated by all units. IAF in both engagements took over a day to compile its information.
DGISPR was right, he said we will respond, and respond they did and had a mig21 to show for it, not to mention the Mi17 that was supposedly shot by India itself on the day. 2-0 is already a bad score.

Why are Pakistanis not peddling the Su30 story anymore. There are two logical reasons

1- They are pretty content with the proven 2-0 aerial score.
2- They are smarter and demand evidence, even from their DGISPR when he claims something.

Take your pick.
Offline

mair

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: 07 Mar 2019, 19:24

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 19:38

pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.


Wow have you been living under a rock? Those pics were disproved a while ago:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -21-wreck/
Offline

fullonlockon

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: 23 Mar 2019, 07:45

Unread post10 Apr 2019, 22:01

citanon wrote:
vm wrote:She has been FP correspondent to pentagon for a total of 11 months. Saying pentagon correspondent does not make her a pentagon employee, how much one might try.
She has less than 4 years as a newsperson in defence matters. Check her LinkedIn profile.


Lara Seligman is a well known and respected defense reporter in the US with good access to defense sources. Her reporting is usually on point.

By this point it's pretty clear what happened: India did not hit jack with its airstrikes on round 1 and got its rear handed to it in the air exchange on round 2. You guys are just too butt hurt to admit the truth, resulting in the invention of all sorts of fairy tales and excuses. As an outsider watching it's pretty hilarious. As an American it's rather dismaying to see such a display of incompetence and self-deception from our vaunted future ally.

Rather than self defeating denials, this is a good opportunity for reflection and reform. Self delusion may salve a sharp wound to one's pride, but it's a poor substitute for real victory.


Concur with this post. For most people this is the logical conclusion and discussion has ended.
Offline

pagan

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: 05 Mar 2019, 10:10

Unread post11 Apr 2019, 02:57

mair wrote:
pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.


Wow have you been living under a rock? Those pics were disproved a while ago:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -21-wreck/


Bellingcat compared the static picture with inside to the MiG21 and debunked that it is from the F-16 engine.

However they did not talk about the other side of that piece at all; neither did the talk about the exterior of the Mig2. In fact the video they shared of the Yugoslavia MiG21 also showed the exterior of that piece which is full of rivets.

This particular video and picture which show both sides of the piece debunks their claim. The other side of the piece is the dark gray of the PAF F-16, has a smooth surface (no rivets).

Neither the color nor the surface match the MiG21.

BTW Bellingcat have been tagged multiple times, but have not responded.

Frankly speaking any one with normal eye-sight can draw the inferences themselves. You do not have to rely on FP or Bellingcat or whatever your preferred source is if you can see.

You can either trust your eyes or trust a "reputed" (sic) source.
Offline

vm

Banned

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2019, 08:59
  • Location: India

Unread post11 Apr 2019, 03:47

So after 1.5 months the Pakistani army has decided to allow journalists access to the terrorist madrassa. Seems like the "weather" has finally cleared.
BBC video - https://youtu.be/tXurIyUEB8I

Some interesting take aways from the visit -
1. For a children madrassa(school) , what are so many army men doing their. Doesn't Pakistan have a civil administration ?
2. The journalists had to trek 1.5 hrs from their helios drop to the madrassa, when the madrassa has a perfectly good flat ground for landing. Guess the Pakistanis don't want the journalists to have a close look from the top while landing.
3.Strange place to host 200 claimed children, in such a isolated and inaccessible place?
4. After a 1.5 hr trek, only 20 minutes allowed in madrassa . Why rush the journalists as bbc guy claims.?
5. See the nice white painted pillars of the verandah and inside , and the glimpse of the new corrugated sheets.?
6. Why no clear shots of the ceilings ? Was the Pakistani journalist being controlled as he claims ? What are they hiding.? If you see the satellite photos, their are 3 to 4 buildings, but here they were allowed access to only 1 ?
7. Why was the madrassa closed for more than a month after the attack as claimed ?
8. Also the bbc journalist says that we were actively and obviously discouraged from speaking to anyone their?

Summary is that a sham 20 min, access controlled visit after 1.5 months.
Highly suspicious. Seems the Indians were right.
Offline

vm

Banned

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2019, 08:59
  • Location: India

Unread post11 Apr 2019, 04:16

Even more interesting article in Asian age, regarding the visit -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.asiana ... -army.html
"The place was heavily guarded by the Pak’s paramilitary Frontier Corps and many places were still out of bound for these journalists.

Some places in Balakot were also covered with tarpaulin sheets."

Too much smoke without fire !
Offline

mair

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: 07 Mar 2019, 19:24

Unread post11 Apr 2019, 10:07

pagan wrote:
mair wrote:
pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.


Wow have you been living under a rock? Those pics were disproved a while ago:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -21-wreck/


Bellingcat compared the static picture with inside to the MiG21 and debunked that it is from the F-16 engine.

However they did not talk about the other side of that piece at all; neither did the talk about the exterior of the Mig2. In fact the video they shared of the Yugoslavia MiG21 also showed the exterior of that piece which is full of rivets.

This particular video and picture which show both sides of the piece debunks their claim. The other side of the piece is the dark gray of the PAF F-16, has a smooth surface (no rivets).

Neither the color nor the surface match the MiG21.

BTW Bellingcat have been tagged multiple times, but have not responded.

Frankly speaking any one with normal eye-sight can draw the inferences themselves. You do not have to rely on FP or Bellingcat or whatever your preferred source is if you can see.

You can either trust your eyes or trust a "reputed" (sic) source.


That’s a mig 21 wreck you idiot every single pic in that twitter thread is cut from a video which clearly showed so. The poor quality of the amateur video maker is being used to spread this propaganda and nonsense. Pakistan doesn’t even use the General Electric engine who’s shape the other side of that surface resembles, THERE IS NO PART OF THE PAKISTANI F16 THAT LOOKS ANYTHING LIKE THE INTERIOR OF THAT SURFACE.

It cannot be from a Pakistani F16. The colour is mostly due to the poor quality of the video if you watch all of it closely. Also,
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/798474208907126430/

Looks pretty greenish to me. You can easily see how it could be mistaken as green, especially given the quality of vid those pics came from.
Offline

pagan

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: 05 Mar 2019, 10:10

Unread post12 Apr 2019, 06:23

mair wrote:
pagan wrote:
pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.




Bellingcat compared the static picture with inside to the MiG21 and debunked that it is from the F-16 engine.

However they did not talk about the other side of that piece at all; neither did the talk about the exterior of the Mig2. In fact the video they shared of the Yugoslavia MiG21 also showed the exterior of that piece which is full of rivets.

This particular video and picture which show both sides of the piece debunks their claim. The other side of the piece is the dark gray of the PAF F-16, has a smooth surface (no rivets).

Neither the color nor the surface match the MiG21.

BTW Bellingcat have been tagged multiple times, but have not responded.

Frankly speaking any one with normal eye-sight can draw the inferences themselves. You do not have to rely on FP or Bellingcat or whatever your preferred source is if you can see.

You can either trust your eyes or trust a "reputed" (sic) source.


That’s a mig 21 wreck you idiot every single pic in that twitter thread is cut from a video which clearly showed so. The poor quality of the amateur video maker is being used to spread this propaganda and nonsense. Pakistan doesn’t even use the General Electric engine who’s shape the other side of that surface resembles, THERE IS NO PART OF THE PAKISTANI F16 THAT LOOKS ANYTHING LIKE THE INTERIOR OF THAT SURFACE.

It cannot be from a Pakistani F16. The colour is mostly due to the poor quality of the video if you watch all of it closely. Also,
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/798474208907126430/

Looks pretty greenish to me. You can easily see how it could be mistaken as green, especially given the quality of vid those pics came from.


You guys are funny.

The MiG21 is painted in what the IAF calls Tipnis Blue.

The wreckage had two main debris fields. The main crash site has the front of the Mig21 with the nose cone still intact (showing a flat decline not a nose first crash), and the secondary site which has the intact tail.

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115074944700833792

Shows the Mig21s tail part and also a separate picture with the dark gray/green part of the F-16.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47383634
has the video of the main crash site.

Do you really think that dark piece came from this aircraft?

If you are color-blind, please ask someone else who is not (color blindness is related to consanguineous marriage which is very prevalent in Pakistan)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595632/
PreviousNext

Return to Air Power

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests