Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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marsavian

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 08:58

That reads exactly like a spoof article ...

The United States enterprise has termed it outrageous and disrespect to the sophistication and repute of this Avionics excellence.

The company also claims that since all F-16s on Pakistani inventory are well counted for hence it is obvious that the story by India is concocted for political gains by incumbent government at the cost of F-16s reputation globally.

The Lockheed Martin further stated that the company reserves the right to claim damages for the likely loss of their highly integrated state of art air lions.


Really ? Can you seriously keep a straight face through all that faux sabre-rattling ? ;)

EDIT: and sure enough LMT denies it ever made such claims. Seems a Pakistani civil servant was taken in by that article too, atmosphere very febrile over there ATM ...

https://timesofindia.com/india/fake-new ... 230167.cms
https://twitter.com/LMIndiaNews/status/ ... 0011798529
Last edited by marsavian on 02 Mar 2019, 09:15, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 09:11

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hythelday

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 09:50

Patriot wrote:Here's my last post on this topic and a little conspiracy theory/practical reality.


There is zero evidence to support this, so please don't spread BS.
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basher54321

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 14:02

A highlight from the social media conflict that followed the real one - while certain media seemed to be jumping around like clueless 3 year olds they might have accidentally invited someone on who knew a bit about aircraft. :lmao:

Audio out of sync but the lip reading seems to match.

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mixelflick

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 14:34

Patriot wrote:Surely Su-30 high up in the sky present a much better target than tiny MiG-21 screaming low against the ground. Actually I think one Su-30 could easily carry two MiG-21s, one under each wing as a manned standoff cruise missiles. Ive digressed. :doh:
Additionally the NCTR JEM protocol should tell Pakistani pilot it's a Flanker.

Thanks for attention.


Btw, Look who's here flying in the Su-30 sqn :wink:
https://youtu.be/pxNsYEoOlpI


Wow.

2 parachutes makes sense now. Plus, no mention of Mig-21's in the fray, at least according to Indian recap below. Just 4 SU-30MKI flying top cover..
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basher54321

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 15:00

Taiwanese Air Force possibly deny it was their AMRAAM.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3648621
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basher54321

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 15:03

New York Times have posted this Tweet:

NewYorkTimes.JPG
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hythelday

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 15:13

mixelflick wrote:
Patriot wrote:Surely Su-30 high up in the sky present a much better target than tiny MiG-21 screaming low against the ground. Actually I think one Su-30 could easily carry two MiG-21s, one under each wing as a manned standoff cruise missiles. Ive digressed. :doh:
Additionally the NCTR JEM protocol should tell Pakistani pilot it's a Flanker.

Thanks for attention.


Btw, Look who's here flying in the Su-30 sqn :wink:
https://youtu.be/pxNsYEoOlpI


Wow.

2 parachutes makes sense now. Plus, no mention of Mig-21's in the fray, at least according to Indian recap below. Just 4 SU-30MKI flying top cover..


What two parachutes?

Flying multiple types is not something special.

Remember when former F-35 pilot was killed in Thunderbirds crash and trolls tried to make an argument that somehow F-35 was involved. Same thing is happening here.
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Shimud

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 21:10

If there were 2 ( or 3 parachutes), there is no way to prove 2 (or more) of IAF's birds have eaten dirt.
1 Mig is lying in Pakistan. That's it.

On the other hand, even if India has lost 1 more Sukhoi or MiG, with debris fallen in India, they will never admit it out of embarrassment. Their 300 killed on ground fiasco has dented their integrity.
For Pakistanis, they have done what they were supposed to do and in case its not admitted by Indians, even better as there will be no reason to escalate the tension.

The winner in this episode is Modi as he is using the whole episode to exploit religious and emotional sentiments to gain votes during next elections in India, just 40-50 days left.
The loser is India as a country, with 40 souls lost earlier, which was the reason why they attempted to hit targets in Pakistan, they lost another 6 (or 8) service men, 1 (or 2) aircraft and 1 chopper shot down and a pilot shot down and detained.
Someone very inept and incompetent is at the helm of affairs.

By the way, any concrete news on AMRAAM? (Could it be that its recovered from the purported 2nd aircraft, MiG or Sukhoi, shot down with debris in India?)
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marsavian

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 21:23

https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/us-se ... 465681.htm

The US is seeking more information on the potential misuse of American-made F-16 fighter jets by Pakistan against India in violation of the end-user agreement, the State Department has said.

The Indian Air Force on Thursday displayed parts of an AMRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile as evidence to "conclusively" prove that Pakistan deployed US-manufactured F-16 fighter jets during an aerial raid targeting Indian military installations in Kashmir after India's anti-terror operation in Balakot.

Pakistan on Wednesday categorically said that no F-16 fighter jets were used and denied that one of its planes had been downed by the Indian Air Force.

"We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information," a State Department spokesperson told PTI when asked about a report that Pakistan has violated the end-user agreement with the United States in this week's border clash with India.

"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI.


Apparently they can't be used outside their border and are primarily for counter-insurgency.
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Shimud

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 21:33

marsavian wrote:https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/us-seeks-information-on-potential-misuse-of-f-16-by-pakistan-2465681.htm

The US is seeking more information on the potential misuse of American-made F-16 fighter jets by Pakistan against India in violation of the end-user agreement, the State Department has said.

The Indian Air Force on Thursday displayed parts of an AMRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile as evidence to "conclusively" prove that Pakistan deployed US-manufactured F-16 fighter jets during an aerial raid targeting Indian military installations in Kashmir after India's anti-terror operation in Balakot.

Pakistan on Wednesday categorically said that no F-16 fighter jets were used and denied that one of its planes had been downed by the Indian Air Force.

"We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information," a State Department spokesperson told PTI when asked about a report that Pakistan has violated the end-user agreement with the United States in this week's border clash with India.

"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI.


Apparently they can't be used outside their border and are primarily for counter-insurgency.


AIM-120C in a BVR AtoA missile. There seems no logic to use them for counter-insurgency operations. Insurgents are not flying fighters, for which you need BVR missiles. Guided AtoG weapons seem logical for such operations.
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noth

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 21:44

Shimud wrote:
marsavian wrote:https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/us-seeks-information-on-potential-misuse-of-f-16-by-pakistan-2465681.htm

The US is seeking more information on the potential misuse of American-made F-16 fighter jets by Pakistan against India in violation of the end-user agreement, the State Department has said.

The Indian Air Force on Thursday displayed parts of an AMRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile as evidence to "conclusively" prove that Pakistan deployed US-manufactured F-16 fighter jets during an aerial raid targeting Indian military installations in Kashmir after India's anti-terror operation in Balakot.

Pakistan on Wednesday categorically said that no F-16 fighter jets were used and denied that one of its planes had been downed by the Indian Air Force.

"We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information," a State Department spokesperson told PTI when asked about a report that Pakistan has violated the end-user agreement with the United States in this week's border clash with India.

"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI.


Apparently they can't be used outside their border and are primarily for counter-insurgency.


AIM-120C in a BVR AtoA missile. There seems no logic to use them for counter-insurgency operations. Insurgents are not flying fighters, for which you need BVR missiles. Guided AtoG weapons seem logical for such operations.


Do remember Pakistan's western neighbour is Iran. AMRAAMs are probably allowed in case Iran sends a drone or something worse over.
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marsavian

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 21:55

Yes, AMRAAMs and the F-16s are allowed for self-defence but not in offensive actions without permission. Apparently the very latest ones, Block 52s, have a remote disable device. Perhaps they need to be fitted on Turkish F-35s too ! ;). US geopolitics do affect Teen and F-35 sales allowing European/Russian/Chinese aircraft to pick up orders where technically and economically alone they may not win.

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/int ... leet-by-us

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... son/373558
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basher54321

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 22:19

marsavian wrote:Yes, AMRAAMs and the F-16s are allowed for self-defence but not in offensive actions without permission. Apparently the very latest ones, Block 52s, have a remote disable device. Perhaps they need to be fitted on Turkish F-35s too ! ;). US geopolitics do affect Teen and F-35 sales allowing European/Russian/Chinese aircraft to pick up orders where technically and economically alone they may not win.



The only thing that matters is the specifics of the end user agreement.
One article has:
"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI. "


The next from the Indian side - a Dr Bhagwat

The defence expert says that as part of the deal between Pakistan and the US, Islamabad had agreed that AMRAAM BVR missiles would be used only for counter-terrorism operations, more specifically on the terror camps operating along Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan.

I see - perhaps Terror is defined better in the end user agreement however it does seem a tad strange that AMRAAM could only be used for baseline counter terrorism ops. Could a hostile jet coming into your territory be considered an act of terror?


The last has "According to a report in Times Now, Pakistan’s misadventures across the LoC on Wednesday morning may have serious repercussions as it’s not clear if the Pakistani military got the go-ahead from the US."

So number 3 you can ignore and number 2 also seems unlikely and is also from the Indian side so inclined to dismiss as BS at this moment in time - but feel free to send over the EULA Dr Bhagwat. I hope Pakistan didn't just tick the box and click Okay!
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marsavian

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Unread post02 Mar 2019, 22:32

It gets better

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/pun ... n-minister

On February 27, India claimed to have shot down an F-16 plane that had entered Indian territory from the Pakistani side. According to arms analysts, the terms of the sale of F-16 jets by the US to Pakistan mandate that they can be used only for counter-terrorism purposes and not against any country.

Mr Hussain did not deny the use of the F-16 aircraft.

“We purchased them from America and didn’t get them in a grant. So we’ll decide where to deploy them. F-16 jets will be used for the purpose for which they are needed. But Insha’Allah, we hope that situation doesn’t arise,” he warned.
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