China wants catapult launch carriers

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drago

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Unread post18 Jun 2022, 23:27

jessmo112 wrote:China has maybe 50+ J-15s ATM which isn't enough to fit 3-4 carriers. They could have the J-35 before 2030 but your betting on.

1. China to finally achieve engine parity with the west and get a credible power plant on the J-35.
As of right now the power and reliability of the
RD series of engine I'd not up to the task of what would ne required for naval deployment.
Someone mentioned before on this board about launching in only burners to achieve takeoff weight.
RD series will burn out fast with that.

2. Even if they get an engine to naval standards, do you expect to throw more wing weight, and gear on the thing, and all will go smooth?
We only need to look back to the hornet wing drop issue, and the F-35C hook issue, to see how complicated this is
To bet on no delays or problems is a bad bet.

3. Full integration.

The J-15 is a dead end. It's already coming to the fleet outdated. And it's seriously flawed.
IMO if they wanted to copy a 4th generation fighters they should have copied the Super bugg design.
A massive naval aviation short fall is China problem.
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madrat

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 00:31

I'm not sure what mission they would use the carrier for until they have 6-7 of them. SSBN escort?
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 05:11

jessmo112 wrote:China has maybe 50+ J-15s ATM which isn't enough to fit 3-4 carriers. They could have the J-35 before 2030 but your betting on.

1. China to finally achieve engine parity with the west and get a credible power plant on the J-35.
As of right now the power and reliability of the
RD series of engine I'd not up to the task of what would ne required for naval deployment.
Someone mentioned before on this board about launching in only burners to achieve takeoff weight.
RD series will burn out fast with that.

2. Even if they get an engine to naval standards, do you expect to throw more wing weight, and gear on the thing, and all will go smooth?
We only need to look back to the hornet wing drop issue, and the F-35C hook issue, to see how complicated this is
To bet on no delays or problems is a bad bet.

3. Full integration.

The J-15 is a dead end. It's already coming to the fleet outdated. And it's seriously flawed.
IMO if they wanted to copy a 4th generation fighters they should have copied the Super bugg design.
A massive naval aviation short fall is China problem.


The Fujian is essentially a modern version of the Kitty Hawk, which is not as capable as a Nimitz but still very formidable, no one here would dismiss a Kitty Hawk in terms of capabilities.

If China wants to have 6 supercarriers by 2030, then I doubt they'll make a completely new carrier and likely will just make improved Fujian types, otherwise the development time and costs would be far too much to realize their timelines. It won't match the US Navy, but almost all other navies will be overmatched.

The J-15 is not a dead end, especially with the J-15B version getting closer to production with AESA radar (probably shared with the J-11D and J-16) and catapult launch nose gear. It's probably quite competitive with an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block II, although I think the Block III would probably have better avionics and mission systems. But the F-35C is clearly superior and frankly we're not investing enough in the F-35C production.
Last edited by disconnectedradical on 19 Jun 2022, 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
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milosh

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 07:15

It would be interested to see what Chinese plan with Type 001 and Type 002 now when they have EMALS and plan to have it on future LHD too:
Image

I mean it would waste no try to integrate one or maybe two on Type 001/002 carriers.

Btw I doubt PLAN plan to match USN carrier numbers. It isn't logical at all. PLAN have three fleets so two carrier per fleet is more then enough. So six big ones for example.
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tphuang

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 14:58

jessmo112 wrote:China has maybe 50+ J-15s ATM which isn't enough to fit 3-4 carriers. They could have the J-35 before 2030 but your betting on.

1. China to finally achieve engine parity with the west and get a credible power plant on the J-35.
As of right now the power and reliability of the
RD series of engine I'd not up to the task of what would ne required for naval deployment.
Someone mentioned before on this board about launching in only burners to achieve takeoff weight.
RD series will burn out fast with that.

2. Even if they get an engine to naval standards, do you expect to throw more wing weight, and gear on the thing, and all will go smooth?
We only need to look back to the hornet wing drop issue, and the F-35C hook issue, to see how complicated this is
To bet on no delays or problems is a bad bet.

3. Full integration.

The J-15 is a dead end. It's already coming to the fleet outdated. And it's seriously flawed.
IMO if they wanted to copy a 4th generation fighters they should have copied the Super bugg design.
A massive naval aviation short fall is China problem.


J-15 is not a dead end. It's kind of interesting what they've done with flanker series in China. Basically, J-15 is China's equivalent of super hornets/Growlers. J-16 is their version of F-15E. KJ-600 is their equivalent of E2D. And clearly, J35 is their version of F-35C.

Based on the current testing status, I think you are going to start seeing J-35s fly off 003 by 2025, but it will be a while longer before 003 itself achieves combat capabilities. J-35 itself doesn't have a huge weapon bay. The engines they have now is sufficient for a mostly air superiority aircraft. Their philosophy is more about using surface combatants and J-15s to carry large strike missiles.
Last edited by tphuang on 19 Jun 2022, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
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tphuang

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 15:15

madrat wrote:I'm not sure what mission they would use the carrier for until they have 6-7 of them. SSBN escort?


That's why they won't build another 003. They iterated through several small surface combatant types until they started to mass produce 052D and 055. They built 001A, because they wanted to try out build their own carrier that's based on Adm K class before trying out more complicated project. They built 003 because they wanted to try out a large CATOBAR carrier. In the end, what they want is a nuclear powered super carrier with multiple catapults. So, they will likely wait until technology is ready before they start serial production.
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jessmo112

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 15:39

disconnectedradical wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:China has maybe 50+ J-15s ATM which isn't enough to fit 3-4 carriers. They could have the J-35 before 2030 but your betting on.

1. China to finally achieve engine parity with the west and get a credible power plant on the J-35.
As of right now the power and reliability of the
RD series of engine I'd not up to the task of what would ne required for naval deployment.
Someone mentioned before on this board about launching in only burners to achieve takeoff weight.
RD series will burn out fast with that.

2. Even if they get an engine to naval standards, do you expect to throw more wing weight, and gear on the thing, and all will go smooth?
We only need to look back to the hornet wing drop issue, and the F-35C hook issue, to see how complicated this is
To bet on no delays or problems is a bad bet.

3. Full integration.

The J-15 is a dead end. It's already coming to the fleet outdated. And it's seriously flawed.
IMO if they wanted to copy a 4th generation fighters they should have copied the Super bugg design.
A massive naval aviation short fall is China problem.


The Fujian is essentially a modern version of the Kitty Hawk, which is not as capable as a Nimitz but still very formidable, no one here would dismiss a Kitty Hawk in terms of capabilities.

If China wants to have 6 supercarriers by 2030, then I doubt they'll make a completely new carrier and likely will just make improved Fujian types, otherwise the development time and costs would be far too much to realize their timelines. It won't match the US Navy, but almost all other navies will be overmatched.

The J-15 is not a dead end, especially with the J-15B version getting closer to production with AESA radar (probably shared with the J-11D and J-16) and catapult launch nose gear. It's probably quite competitive with an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block II, although I think the Block III would probably have better avionics and mission systems. But the F-35C is clearly superior and frankly we're not investing enough in the F-35C production.


I will agree to disagree on J-15. Nearly all of the navies that they will face, like Sk, Japan, Australia, The U.S. all have 5th generation fighters. I was reading today about the Fire power of a Ticonderoga with its 122 VLS slots.
The Sm-6 reaches out OTH for 2 hundred miles or more.
When we start shooting at each other you really don't want to be in a legacy fighter. Also keep in mind that of this conflict is before 2030, then the Chinese have 2 CATOBAR carriers at the most. The other J-15s have to deal with the limitations of STOBAR.
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drago

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Unread post19 Jun 2022, 15:58

83864B93-A005-4D20-8940-2696C5914D0F.png
003
E94BBCC8-8C2D-4075-9453-094A463C85D5.jpeg
The real full-load displacement is 100,000 tons.
9B4DE7C9-9D97-4897-A72D-5173212F4475.png
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milosh

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Unread post20 Jun 2022, 19:48

madrat wrote:I'm not sure what mission they would use the carrier for until they have 6-7 of them. SSBN escort?


Bomber escorts mostly. Chinese primary antiship weapon are bombers with long range missiles (cruise and hypersonic ones), but without protection they can be intecept and down espeacilly with US working at last on new longer range missile, F-18 could carry something like AAAM for example in to so far future.

So with two Type-003 and maybe Type-001 upgraded with EMALS, PLAN would have excellent protection for chinese bombers.
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Unread post21 Jun 2022, 01:07

In peacetime, it is more likely used to protect SLOCs. Currently China is vulnerable to interdiction of trade routes from the Gulf thru Malacca straits. The current 2-3 CVs is sufficient to deter misadventure from nations along the way. Right now CV16 is used as a training carrier to generate pilots. CV 17 hasn't travelled far yet but it is expected that the CVs will eventually go west of the Malaccan straits.

Offensively, CVBGs can be used to escort invasion fleets into Taiwan, SCS and/or Ryukyus. Doesn't need to go up to 6-7 to do that. Not that it makes much difference to F-35s either.
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tphuang

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Unread post21 Jun 2022, 13:20

milosh wrote:
madrat wrote:I'm not sure what mission they would use the carrier for until they have 6-7 of them. SSBN escort?


Bomber escorts mostly. Chinese primary antiship weapon are bombers with long range missiles (cruise and hypersonic ones), but without protection they can be intecept and down espeacilly with US working at last on new longer range missile, F-18 could carry something like AAAM for example in to so far future.

So with two Type-003 and maybe Type-001 upgraded with EMALS, PLAN would have excellent protection for chinese bombers.


The primary anti-ship weapon delivering platform for Chinese CSG is from 055s. Their air wing's goal is to be able to find the other side's carrier/surface fleet and to provide air cover for the fleet and to help with hunting submarines.

I suppose if they can achieve air superiority with J-35s, then J-15s can also carry out anti-ship/stand off missiles, but they really can't deliver the firepower of the 055s.
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Unread post21 Jun 2022, 15:50

The J-15 is about as good an airframe as they have to cut their teeth so to speak, in learning fixed wing carrier aviation. It may not be 5th gen but could still give the SH or Rafale a run for its money. Especially considering its radar, extremely long range AAM's and much, much better endurance.

Against the F-35C it would struggle badly. Really wish the USN would buy more, as I don't see their NGAD arriving anytime soon - nor being affordable in anything less than silver bullet numbers.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post21 Jun 2022, 17:16

jessmo112 wrote:I will agree to disagree on J-15. Nearly all of the navies that they will face, like Sk, Japan, Australia, The U.S. all have 5th generation fighters. I was reading today about the Fire power of a Ticonderoga with its 122 VLS slots.
The Sm-6 reaches out OTH for 2 hundred miles or more.
When we start shooting at each other you really don't want to be in a legacy fighter. Also keep in mind that of this conflict is before 2030, then the Chinese have 2 CATOBAR carriers at the most. The other J-15s have to deal with the limitations of STOBAR.


F-35B is in South Korea and Japan's plans, but how soon will they get them? And at the rate we're buying F-35Cs, the large majority of a carrier air wing is still Super Hornets for quite a few years.
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Unread post22 Jun 2022, 03:19

Japan - 2024 onwards for B delivery.
SK - B not ordered yet.
2 usmc B sqn in Japan currently.
USN plans 6 CVW will be equipped with 1 X 14 F-35C sqn each by FY26.
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Unread post22 Jun 2022, 15:41

This is actually a rather interesting outcome due to GWOT. USN had to order so many super hornets, that each carrier wing (once they get F-35C) probably will have twice as many super hornets as F-35C for the next 20 years. On the other hand, PLAN carrier wing probably will have 2 to 3x as many J-35s as J-15 variants in the same period. I'd be very surprised if J-35 isn't flying off CV-18 by 2025. It's just not as technically challenging project as F-35 series or J-20 series.
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