Russia-Ukraine War 2022

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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Jan 2023, 19:58

It seems that M1 Abrams MBTs are heading to Ukraine.

According to the source below, the Biden admin is [finally] finalizing plans to send US-made Abrams Tanks to Ukraine & could make an announcement as soon as this week:
https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/sta ... G9i_QsAAAA

It seems that (finally) "fun" times are coming to the Ukrainian tank crews. :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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retchief70

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Unread post24 Jan 2023, 20:44

I hope everyone realizes panalay is a mouthpiece for Russian Government propaganda. As someone aptly put it a "Putin Keyboard Commando". I would guess he's either directly or indirectly associated with the Russian MoD, or some Russian Government organization. Referring to the Ukrainians as "beggars" and "nazis". Comparing what the Russians are doing in Ukraine to the actions of the West in WWII, and the Americans in Iraq.

The outright lies: Russians aren't attacking civilian infrastructure. 25,000 pro Ukrainian foreign fighters dead in Solidar. This is part of the typical Russian narrative.

In the past these guys were banned from this Forum. (When the Russians were first getting involved in Syria there were several of these jokers commenting.) Failing that, probably the best course of action with this guy is to just ignore him. Nothing you say will matter to him. No rational argument or statement of facts will sway him (or her). He'll continue to spew out wild and unsubstituted claims that defy the obvious.
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milosh

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Unread post24 Jan 2023, 21:44

charlielima223 wrote:Originally I posted this over at the East vs West main battle tank thread but this could go here as well.

T-72... even the Ukrainain hate them when they know they could possibly get something better...



Something I am hearing about on how the Ukrainian forces are using their tanks. Sounds like a lot of infantry direct fire support missions and limited direct action. Somethings that I hear are how Ukrainian tanks are often shifted from one spot to the next to keep them as non static targets and to respond to Russian military actions.

Ukraine will definitely need a very mechanized mobile force that can also deliver fire power very quickly and precisely.


Damn, kontakt-1 armor? Do anyone have info about ERA production in Ukraine after independence? I thought they do have kontakt-5 production there. Maybe not or factory was closed after collapse of USSR.
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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Jan 2023, 22:14

retchief70 wrote:I hope everyone realizes panalay is a mouthpiece for Russian Government propaganda. As someone aptly put it a "Putin Keyboard Commando".


After second thought I think that 'paralay' should be called 'parallax' because it doesn't matter the angle you approach him, his view will always point to exactly the same place :wink: :mrgreen:


retchief70 wrote:I would guess he's either directly or indirectly associated with the Russian MoD, or some Russian Government organization. Referring to the Ukrainians as "beggars" and "nazis". Comparing what the Russians are doing in Ukraine to the actions of the West in WWII, and the Americans in Iraq. The outright lies: Russians aren't attacking civilian infrastructure. 25,000 pro Ukrainian foreign fighters dead in Solidar. This is part of the typical Russian narrative. In the past these guys were banned from this Forum. (When the Russians were first getting involved in Syria there were several of these jokers commenting.) Failing that, probably the best course of action with this guy is to just ignore him. Nothing you say will matter to him. No rational argument or statement of facts will sway him (or her). He'll continue to spew out wild and unsubstituted claims that defy the obvious.


Yes, I fully agree with you!
But there's something you (and we) can always do regarding this which is to report him (or her?) to the moderators. We have to remember that moderators aren't obviously able to visit all the threads of these forums at all the time. I believe that when/if a moderador sees this then action will be taken - actually it's possible to see in his/hers profile that a warning was already issued so some action was already taken.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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not_kent

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Unread post24 Jan 2023, 22:19

retchief70 wrote:I hope everyone realizes panalay is a mouthpiece for Russian Government propaganda. As someone aptly put it a "Putin Keyboard Commando". I would guess he's either directly or indirectly associated with the Russian MoD, or some Russian Government organization. Referring to the Ukrainians as "beggars" and "nazis". Comparing what the Russians are doing in Ukraine to the actions of the West in WWII, and the Americans in Iraq. The outright lies: Russians aren't attacking civilian infrastructure. 25,000 pro Ukrainian foreign fighters dead in Solidar. This is part of the typical Russian narrative. In the past these guys were banned from this Forum. (When the Russians were first getting involved in Syria there were several of these jokers commenting.) Failing that, probably the best course of action with this guy is to just ignore him. Nothing you say will matter to him. No rational argument or statement of facts will sway him (or her). He'll continue to spew out wild and unsubstituted claims that defy the obvious.


But trolls are so fun to play with. Agree with a no feeding the trolls policy and will leave the trolls alone in the future.
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charlielima223

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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 08:45

I wanted to put this at the East vs West MBT thread but this place seems more fitting...

Ukraine will finally get the ubiquitous Leopard 2 and there is talk/rumor that US will send the infamous/famous M1 Abrams...

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/01/ukr ... g-experts/

But if all goes well, and if Berlin then allows its allies to send the German-made MBTs to Ukraine — a decision that Berlin has been waffling on — that means Ukraine theoretically could launch an armored counter-offensive in early March, just before the spring thaw known as the rasputitsa turns the open steppes into tank-bogging mud.

Ukraine needn’t send its new recruits. They have thousands of veteran tankers, hardened by 11 months of the fiercest fighting in Europe since World War II. They have thousands more mechanics and logisticians, honed by the desperate struggle to keep a hodgepodge of Western and Soviet combat vehicles in fighting form. They have commanders and staff officers used to planning and coordinating armored warfare.

they would need to learn the Leopard II, which — like the American M1 Abrams, the British Challenger, and other modern Western tanks — is much bigger, heavier, better-armored, and more high-tech than the Soviet-derived designs they’re used to. That affects everything from crew size (four instead of three) to what bridges can support their weight, from how the gun is loaded (manually instead of automatically) to how supply lines and advances must be planned.
***
“Overall, it will take two or three months to train Ukraine personnel,” said Nicholas Drummond, a former British Army tank officer and now a consultant. “I wouldn’t want to do it in any less time.”

“Leopard 2 was designed to be used by conscript soldiers” — the German Bundeswehr retained the draft long after the US — “so it is relatively easy to train crews to use them,” Drummond added. “The more challenging requirement is training support teams to maintain the tanks.”

“You’ve got to train not only the tank crews, you then have to train all of the maintainers,” agreed retired Maj. Gen. Patrick Donahoe. “Then you’ve got to go in and you’ve got to train their staffs.”

“You can truncate that down [to], say, eight weeks to train an experienced armor crew member…but you can’t train them all at once,” said Donahoe, who once commanded the Fort Benning training center. “You need to establish the school” — presumably at an existing Polish base — “where you could bring Ukrainian tankers from their current units where they’re fighting, train them up, and get them back into Ukraine.”

“Say a month and a half to two months per individual, [but] three or four or five months to build a larger body to train soldiers,” Donahoe concluded.
***
Some highly specialized repair technicians, however, might take “a year,” warned Jon Jeckell, a retired Army officer with extensive experience with tank maintenance. “That’s basic proficiency, and not with all of the tacit knowledge of a senior technician that develops an intuitive sense for problems, knows how to troubleshoot, and can improvise.” So for some time, if certain high-tech components break — like the laser rangefinders essential to accurate long-range fire — Ukraine will have to send them back to Poland, Germany, or another country with infrastructure to support the Leopard II.

Fortunately for Ukraine, several European nations have that infrastructure, because the Leopard II is the most widely exported Western main battle tank of modern times. Many countries bought them second-hand from the Bundeswehr during its downsizing in the 1990s.


A bit of a silver lining in all this...
“It can take a week to get [tanks] in relatively good shape out of storage and ‘wake them up,’” Jeckell continued. “Multiply times hundreds of tanks, especially if you lack mechanics and most importantly spare parts, and they could be down for months.”

But Poland, once again, might hold the trump card. “If those [approximately 250] Polish Leopard 2s are in good condition,” Jeckell said, “that would be more than an old-school [US] Army of Excellence armor division-worth of tanks with just the Polish donation alone.”

“Since Poland’s tanks are operational, they should be relatively well maintained and ready,” said Hodges. And since Poland borders Ukraine, he noted, it’s the easiest place on the planet from which to physically deliver the tanks.

“These tanks appear to be well maintained and ready to go,” agreed Dooley. “The Ukrainians have asked for 300 Western MBTs, and Poland would be close to meeting that number by themselves.”

As for the rest of Europe’s roughly 2,000 Leopard 2 tanks? In the worst case, they can be cannibalized for spare parts to keep the Ukrainians’ 300 fighting.


One thing I am not reading or hearing about is which variant Ukraine will get. There are a total of 7 main variants. It seems like the A4 is the most prolific, however which version of the A4 will Ukraine get? Are they going to get a older version or a version with more modern equipment inside it?

Now for all the talk about the M1 Abrams for Ukraine. For the most part I agree with the article but at the end people forget how important geography is...
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/01/pen ... ing-years/

But Pentagon Press Secretary Pat Ryder didn’t deny the reports about a potential forthcoming Abrams announcement either.

“I have nothing to announce today in terms of the M1s. As I think we’ve said all along, we continue to have a very robust dialogue with Ukraine and our international allies and partners to focus on what their immediate battlefield needs are now, in the near-term, but we also have discussions about what they may need in the medium- to long-term,” he told reporters at a Pentagon briefing. A spokesperson for the White House National Security Council, likewise, told Breaking Defense today they “don’t have anything to announce.”
***
“The M1 is a complex weapon system that is challenging to maintain. …That was true yesterday. It’s true today. It’ll be true in the future,” Ryder said. “Without getting into hypotheticals, anytime that we provided Ukraine with any type of system we provided the training and sustainment capabilities with that.”
***
True, the Abrams does require specially trained maintenance teams because it uses an unusual turbine engine — most other modern tanks are diesels, with the significant exception of the Soviet-era T-80, which happened to be manufactured in Kharkiv and remains a significant part of the Ukrainian tank fleet. The Abrams also guzzles fuel even more than other 60-plus-ton tanks.

Several former armor officers told Breaking Defense that those logistics hurdles do exist but said they are not dramatically greater than for the other Western heavy tanks already offered to Ukraine.

“All [Western tanks] will require repair parts, heavy recovery vehicles, maybe heavy transport trucks to move them quickly from front to front or to evacuate them for repair,” said Jon Jeckell, a retired Army officer with extensive experience with tank maintenance. “The Ukrainians are also going to have to figure out how to get all of these across bridges as all of them are much heavier than any Russian tank and there probably aren’t many bridges in the country that can support these tanks — and reinforcing bridges gives out a signature that would telegraph where you plan to attack.”


This is the part of the article that I tend to take contention with. Remember what I said about how important geography is?
Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, former commander of all US Army forces in Europe, said much of the current debate seems “more like excuses” being used by the administration to avoid sending M1s and not a sound reason for a major policy decision.

“Other nations much less industrialized than Ukraine use Abrams” like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait and Iraq, Hodges added.


I havent been to Eastern Europe but I have been to the sand box. From what I can tell from pictures and video online comparing to my own experience in the Middle East (Kuwait and Iraq)... THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE! For one there are almost zero bridges. Most of the Middle East is still very open and flat with the exception of sand dunes (yes those sand dunes can shift position in under a week if there is enough wind). Its easier for the Abrams to get from A to B in the middle east because there is almost nothing in their way not like what we have seen with footage in Ukraine. Planners need to take into account the geographic challenges/hurdles that the land scape of Ukraine posses.
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 10:36

retchief70 wrote:I hope everyone realizes panalay is a mouthpiece for Russian Government propaganda.

[...]

In the past these guys were banned from this Forum.


They still are, but I always give them a chance - especially if they are already on the forum since 2009 (14 years!). However, I think the time has come to ban Panalay now.
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 12:23

charlielima223 wrote:This is the part of the article that I tend to take contention with. Remember what I said about how important geography is?
Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, former commander of all US Army forces in Europe, said much of the current debate seems “more like excuses” being used by the administration to avoid sending M1s and not a sound reason for a major policy decision.

“Other nations much less industrialized than Ukraine use Abrams” like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait and Iraq, Hodges added.


I havent been to Eastern Europe but I have been to the sand box. From what I can tell from pictures and video online comparing to my own experience in the Middle East (Kuwait and Iraq)... THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE! For one there are almost zero bridges. Most of the Middle East is still very open and flat with the exception of sand dunes (yes those sand dunes can shift position in under a week if there is enough wind). Its easier for the Abrams to get from A to B in the middle east because there is almost nothing in their way not like what we have seen with footage in Ukraine. Planners need to take into account the geographic challenges/hurdles that the land scape of Ukraine posses.


Maybe Gen Hodges was referring to the maintenance aspect when referencing "much less industrialized than Ukraine".

A lot of time the "much less industrialized" countries will have support contractors and facilities run by the weapons manufacturers to assist with the maintenance. They also hire retired US military personnel to advise with issues.
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 13:55

If NATO instituted a No Fly Zone in the far western quarter, and offered humanitarian aid out to the Dneiper, Russia would be neutured. Ukranian air forces could concentrate their meager resources into the center and eastern areas. NATO could realistically garauntee the safety of humanitarian convoys, safety from both parties. That would also shoehorn Belarus, preventing the entertainment of an invasion. The endgame is to neutralize future expansion of the conflict. Best of all, the Ukraine would enjoy an unassailable position. The U.S. and NATO of course would only be present upon an invitation from the Ukraine.
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 15:35

I believe it's only a matter of time before western maintenance personnel are in Ukraine helping maintain and service the plethora of German, French, Swedish, American, etc. armor and artillery systems currently or soon to be in use there. Not talking active military, but contractors, along with former and retired military personnel. This may already be happening. Back in the day active duty American military personnel were discharged and hired by various US Gov't agencies to work in areas US military personnel weren't supposed to be. Plausible deniability.
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 19:59

Its official that Ukraine will get the M1 Abrams now...

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... o-ukraine/

U.S. President Joe Biden announced Wednesday he would send 31 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, reversing course after Germany cleared the way for Europe to send scores of main battle tanks.

The moves, hailed by western officials as a potential turning point in Ukraine’s war to repel Russia’s invasion, are meant to strengthen Kyiv’s defenses against an expected Russian onslaught this spring and give it the tools to punch through Russia’s battle lines and retake territory.

Biden announced the move in a speech flanked by Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who Biden said recommended the move, and Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Biden hailed Germany’s decision and other nations’ recent commitments of armored vehicles to Ukraine’s allies.


https://breakingdefense.com/2023/01/abr ... yiv-tanks/

Just before Biden’s speech, several administration officials previewed the announcement to reporters earlier in the morning. Although the officials declined to specify which Abrams tank variant will be sent to Ukraine, they said the US will not pull these vehicles from units or existing stockpiles and instead use the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. A DoD factsheet said they’d be part of a $400 million USAI package.

“While the deliveries will take some time, because this is a procurement, the United States will begin now to establish a comprehensive training program for their use,” one administration official said. “These tanks are complex systems that require a significant amount of training and maintenance, so [the Department of Defense] is currently working through the mechanisms to deliver the fuel and equipment Ukraine will need to operate and to maintain the Abrams.”

That official declined to detail when the Abrams tanks will arrive inside the country but said it will take “months as opposed to weeks.” Once there they will help Ukraine with combined arms maneuver operations to “to defend and reclaim their territory,” the official said.


Im all for giving Ukraine the weapons needed to completely repel and push out Russian forces out of their country but now I am starting to have some second thoughts. It seems like we will give them everything short of the kitchen sink and fighter aircraft. I would use caution on what to send them incase things should fall into Russian hands. My guess is these Abrams will come out of reserve storage stocks. Either way I am happy to see that Ukraine will get better tanks than what they have now.

Where is zhang? Haven't seen him in a couple of pages. Hope he is doing well.
Last edited by charlielima223 on 25 Jan 2023, 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 20:00

So these are now confirmed it looks like.



Germany has agreed to send 14 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine - and is allowing other countries to send theirs too - at a cabinet meeting this morning


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64396659

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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 21:14

Rare video of BMPT in combat:
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Unread post25 Jan 2023, 22:11

Kinda busy days

Not_kent

Unfortunately, “Save Ukraine decree” shuffled too many things; we lost a bounch of bonuses and tue Superbonus got downgraded and is basically impossible to get. right now is suspended, anyway.

Don’t get fooled by the GDP quotas, every country is sending much more than “advertised “. It’s entirely political and there arr way too many governments that are stlll riding the dick of that cancerous lunatic pig . Italy ( im deeply ashamed) and Germany above anyone else! It’s disgusting i know.

Now, unlike most if this board, i had the pleasure to live along russians ( Riga - St Petersburg ). Im afraid id get banned if i speak honestly about that filth of human race.
So im so, so, so up for a major beatdown of the Z forces.
We just need to encourage the Ukrainians to replace Zelensky as soon as we are finished helping freeing their land.
We need to be honest, he is just as responsible, he is, by all means, a calamity we dont need around, should Ukraine join the EU.


To the troll: Russia got its a$$ kicked by a bunch of farmers with some western stuff they barely know how to use; what could possibly go wrong if the rats decide to face an actual army? An army that actually trains and have a real airforce? Lmao, get real please!
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Unread post26 Jan 2023, 00:58

nutshell wrote:Kinda busy days
We just need to encourage the Ukrainians to replace Zelensky as soon as we are finished helping freeing their land.
We need to be honest, he is just as responsible, he is, by all means, a calamity we dont need around, should Ukraine join the EU.


Care to elaborate on why Zelensky should be replaced? I have a feeling that instead of replacing Zelensky he will be regarded as a hero inside and outside of Ukraine.

Personally I admire his not leaving Ukraine, visiting the front lines and his overall leadership and lack of corruption.
Daresay that Ukraine would not have survived without him.
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