The way to stop China

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xt0xickillax

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Unread post26 Jun 2022, 17:44

All this talk of new aircraft carriers and J-15 and J-31 and all the other stuff China is busy copying has me thinking. Chinese stuff is obviously not up to snuff but they can just throw numbers at us until they win. They are building airplanes and ships at such a fast pace that frankly something needs to be done now before the upcoming conflict in the next few years. But what about hitting infrastructure?

As Russia's special operation in Ukraine has shown, hitting key infrastructure can have big effects on a war. So this has me thinking. Why don't we strike China's 3 Gorges Dam and flood the entire Yangtze? Doing so will take a big dent on their numbers advantage and put many cities out of action. In fact, if we truly have the courage, we shouldn't wait and should strike it now before it can be more heavily defended.

A flight of a few B-2s with some bunker busters, maybe some B61-12, can probably make this happen and will set China back years, which I think is worth the risk.
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daswp

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Unread post26 Jun 2022, 18:02

What branch of the military are you in?

Cut China's food supply off and they run out of food in 90 days.
Internal suppression will always supersede an attack on Taiwan.
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xt0xickillax

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Unread post26 Jun 2022, 18:47

daswp wrote:What branch of the military are you in?

Cut China's food supply off and they run out of food in 90 days.
Internal suppression will always supersede an attack on Taiwan.


That's another good method. See how long they're willing to starve.

Why does it matter what branch of the military I'm in?
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daswp

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Unread post26 Jun 2022, 20:55

xt0xickillax wrote:
daswp wrote:What branch of the military are you in?

Cut China's food supply off and they run out of food in 90 days.
Internal suppression will always supersede an attack on Taiwan.


That's another good method. See how long they're willing to starve.

Why does it matter what branch of the military I'm in?


Because my experience says folks with no skin in the game seem eager to start military actions.
FWIW, 28 years and 10 combat/contingency deployments including 2 airfield seizures.
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xt0xickillax

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Unread post26 Jun 2022, 20:59

daswp wrote:
xt0xickillax wrote:
daswp wrote:What branch of the military are you in?

Cut China's food supply off and they run out of food in 90 days.
Internal suppression will always supersede an attack on Taiwan.


That's another good method. See how long they're willing to starve.

Why does it matter what branch of the military I'm in?


Because my experience says folks with no skin in the game seem eager to start military actions.
FWIW, 28 years and 10 combat/contingency deployments including 2 airfield seizures.


Would you rather wait for China to continue building up forces before the conflict, or do something about it now? Better to diminish whatever advantage they have as best as possible before they invade.
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daswp

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Unread post26 Jun 2022, 22:28

xt0xickillax wrote: Would you rather wait for China to continue building up forces before the conflict, or do something about it now? Better to diminish whatever advantage they have as best as possible before they invade.


I am content to wait, we could throttle back food deliveries and tariff all the imports now. Current admin and most Senior (both sides) Politicians are owned by China, so it's not going to happen.
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tphuang

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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 04:03

xt0xickillax wrote:
daswp wrote:
xt0xickillax wrote:That's another good method. See how long they're willing to starve.

Why does it matter what branch of the military I'm in?


Because my experience says folks with no skin in the game seem eager to start military actions.
FWIW, 28 years and 10 combat/contingency deployments including 2 airfield seizures.


Would you rather wait for China to continue building up forces before the conflict, or do something about it now? Better to diminish whatever advantage they have as best as possible before they invade.


This kind of thought process is exactly why China is trying to attain MAD.

And no, B-2 has no chance getting that far in China without getting shot down. The Chinese counter stealth technology, air defense system and radar network is first rate. In recent years, USAF has seen first hand how much AWACS, anti-stealth radar and early warning radar coverage are along China's East Coast.

And no, you cannot cut China's food supply off when it can get everything it needs from Russia. In the current supply chain, the only thing you can really cut off completely from China is Iron Ore. People smarter than me have looked at it and this is what they concluded.

Also, China has no interest in getting into a war with America. It does seem like a couple of people here are really eager for a fight with China.
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daswp

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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 04:21

tphuang wrote:

This kind of thought process is exactly why China is trying to attain MAD.

And no, B-2 has no chance getting that far in China without getting shot down. The Chinese counter stealth technology, air defense system and radar network is first rate. In recent years, USAF has seen first hand how much AWACS, anti-stealth radar and early warning radar coverage are along China's East Coast.

And no, you cannot cut China's food supply off when it can get everything it needs from Russia. In the current supply chain, the only thing you can really cut off completely from China is Iron Ore. People smarter than me have looked at it and this is what they concluded.

Also, China has no interest in getting into a war with America. It does seem like a couple of people here are really eager for a fight with China.


Then why did they remove their tariffs on soybeans after 90 days (when Trump was President)?
by your logic, they should have just bought from Russia.
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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 04:52

xt0xickillax wrote:So this has me thinking. Why don't we strike China's 3 Gorges Dam and flood the entire Yangtze? Doing so will take a big dent on their numbers advantage and put many cities out of action. In fact, if we truly have the courage, we shouldn't wait and should strike it now before it can be more heavily defended.

A flight of a few B-2s with some bunker busters, maybe some B61-12, can probably make this happen and will set China back years, which I think is worth the risk.


So your plan is to commit a war crime, leading to a genocide, and most likely a nuclear war with China...
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xt0xickillax

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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 05:23

tphuang wrote:This kind of thought process is exactly why China is trying to attain MAD.

And no, B-2 has no chance getting that far in China without getting shot down. The Chinese counter stealth technology, air defense system and radar network is first rate. In recent years, USAF has seen first hand how much AWACS, anti-stealth radar and early warning radar coverage are along China's East Coast.

And no, you cannot cut China's food supply off when it can get everything it needs from Russia. In the current supply chain, the only thing you can really cut off completely from China is Iron Ore. People smarter than me have looked at it and this is what they concluded.

Also, China has no interest in getting into a war with America. It does seem like a couple of people here are really eager for a fight with China.


Really you think China can easily down the B-2? Consider that their air defense is mainly based on S-300 and look at how quickly Ukrainian S-300s are getting taken out.

If China has no interest in a war, why are they trying to build all those islands and make airfields on them? Why are they trying to topple us in Africa, South America, Middle East, etc? China will try to conquer Taiwan have monopoly over chips and semiconductors to force their way to the top. The conflict is coming sooner or later. Look at their propaganda indoctrinating hatred for the West.
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xt0xickillax

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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 05:28

usafhk wrote:
xt0xickillax wrote:So this has me thinking. Why don't we strike China's 3 Gorges Dam and flood the entire Yangtze? Doing so will take a big dent on their numbers advantage and put many cities out of action. In fact, if we truly have the courage, we shouldn't wait and should strike it now before it can be more heavily defended.

A flight of a few B-2s with some bunker busters, maybe some B61-12, can probably make this happen and will set China back years, which I think is worth the risk.


So your plan is to commit a war crime, leading to a genocide, and most likely a nuclear war with China...


Hitting infrastructure is legitimate military target, done in all wars. This takes out a big chunk of industrial capability. And if China has the ability they would do the same thing, and they are already using covert means of subverting us.
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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 05:48

xt0xickillax wrote:
usafhk wrote:
xt0xickillax wrote:So this has me thinking. Why don't we strike China's 3 Gorges Dam and flood the entire Yangtze? Doing so will take a big dent on their numbers advantage and put many cities out of action. In fact, if we truly have the courage, we shouldn't wait and should strike it now before it can be more heavily defended.

A flight of a few B-2s with some bunker busters, maybe some B61-12, can probably make this happen and will set China back years, which I think is worth the risk.


So your plan is to commit a war crime, leading to a genocide, and most likely a nuclear war with China...


Hitting infrastructure is legitimate military target, done in all wars. This takes out a big chunk of industrial capability. And if China has the ability they would do the same thing, and they are already using covert means of subverting us.


You do know that we're not at war with China, right?

Even if we were there's something called Proportionality.

"The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.”

So, ya. A war crime.
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milosh

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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 11:12

Try to drown or starve population of around 1500 millions which have icbm warheads and no one knows how many and which are very cocky nation, what can go wrong?

Pentagon pupposly downplay Chinese icbm capabilities for long, only when NK start testing and fielding icbms, Pentagon start talking about bigger chinese icbm capability then what was tought before.

I mean if Russia which have much lower GDP can afford to match US arsenal in fact Russian land based ICBM are very new compared to M3 in US silos, China without much sweat can have similar capability. Even if they dont have Russian arsenal or US arsenal they for sure have lot more then what were earlier estimates and I would say they have more then what Pentagon is now saying.
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tphuang

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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 12:50

xt0xickillax wrote:
tphuang wrote:This kind of thought process is exactly why China is trying to attain MAD.

And no, B-2 has no chance getting that far in China without getting shot down. The Chinese counter stealth technology, air defense system and radar network is first rate. In recent years, USAF has seen first hand how much AWACS, anti-stealth radar and early warning radar coverage are along China's East Coast.

And no, you cannot cut China's food supply off when it can get everything it needs from Russia. In the current supply chain, the only thing you can really cut off completely from China is Iron Ore. People smarter than me have looked at it and this is what they concluded.

Also, China has no interest in getting into a war with America. It does seem like a couple of people here are really eager for a fight with China.


Really you think China can easily down the B-2? Consider that their air defense is mainly based on S-300 and look at how quickly Ukrainian S-300s are getting taken out.


It's air defense really isn't just about a few long range SAMs. Their radar technology has really benefited from being the factory of the world. For example, they dominate the GaN production that are needed for modern AESA radar. https://www.fierceelectronics.com/elect ... n-chipsets
You will see that all of their post 2015 radar systems are using AESA technology with GaN modules. This would apply to the really large S-Band panel radars on 055/052D, the really large anti-stealth radar https://divsightintel.com/ylc-8e-chinas ... b444975f43, AWACS and fighter jet. They use they the long range anti-stealth radar to detect and then cue up radar system of the naval ships/SAMs and AWACs, which can then narrow beam to track onto the stealth object.

Keep in mind that they do have operational flywing aircraft like GJ-11 that they can use to test out their defenses against flywing aircraft with all-aspect stealth.

If China has no interest in a war, why are they trying to build all those islands and make airfields on them? Why are they trying to topple us in Africa, South America, Middle East, etc? China will try to conquer Taiwan have monopoly over chips and semiconductors to force their way to the top. The conflict is coming sooner or later. Look at their propaganda indoctrinating hatred for the West.


For the first part, that is definitely about controlling SCS. it's all about controlling the large trade routes from Europe/Middle East to mainland China. Their economy is dependent on import on raw material and export of machines and stuff. Given how they've de-industrialized everyone, they would like to continue to be the world's factory.

Don't believe the semiconductor hype. China wants Taiwan to recover the land of greater China, not because of semiconductor. It sees the current split as a result of an ongoing/paused civil war and a general injustice from the century of humiliation. If tomorrow, all the semiconductor fabs in Taiwan get destroyed, China will still have the same desire to achieve unification.

But above all, China will try to resolve this issue without ever firing a shot. China does not want to lose its economic relationship with the West. Unless Taiwan declares independence, I don't think you will see China invade Taiwan until the military gap is so wide that Taiwanese military admits it can't defend itself. At which point, China will try to negotiate some kind of settlement with a pro-mainland government in Taiwan.
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Unread post27 Jun 2022, 14:33

tphuang wrote:But above all, China will try to resolve this issue without ever firing a shot. China does not want to lose its economic relationship with the West. Unless Taiwan declares independence, I don't think you will see China invade Taiwan until the military gap is so wide that Taiwanese military admits it can't defend itself. At which point, China will try to negotiate some kind of settlement with a pro-mainland government in Taiwan.

I am glad to hear that China will try to resolve this without launching a war. At the same time, I wonder how easy it will be to negotiate Taiwan's surrender (which it would be) after China broke their promise to HK about "one country, two systems". That was kind of the whole basis for many Taiwanese being positive to considering an agreement with China. With that out the window, I suspect it will be very hard to find a "compromise" that Taiwan actually could trust.

Any thoughts on why China recently declared Taiwan strait being not international waters? I mean, are there any particular reasons why this was done now?
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