Russia-Ukraine War 2022

Discuss air warfare, doctrine, air forces, historic campaigns, etc.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4129
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post22 May 2022, 13:29

zhangmdev wrote:Saw the T-80 video above? The snorkel was shot off, it survived and shot back. The BMPT turret would not survive this. MBT isn't supposed to fight close quarters combat in the streets, but BMPT is. If its hull can be penetrated like T-72, what's the point? 30mm ammo will be safer? Hey, plenty of BMP-2/3 tossed turret too.


DITTO! :thumb:

retchief70 wrote:BMPT-72. Just another target for ATGWs. Next to useless the way the Russians will employ them. Doesn't really matter what armor types the Russians introduce to the battlefield. They're just mobile metal coffins.


TWO TIMES DITTO! :thumb:


P.S- Can't wait to watch those BMPT-72 Terminators having their asses kicked! Then I'm sure "someone" will come up and say that this happened because the "BMPT-72" wasn't a "BMT-72QWERTY123+-*/" or a "BMTP-73" instead or something along those lines... :roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

milosh

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1754
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post22 May 2022, 16:09

zhangmdev wrote:Saw the T-80 video above? The snorkel was shot off, it survived and shot back. The BMPT turret would not survive this. MBT isn't supposed to fight close quarters combat in the streets, but BMPT is. If its hull can be penetrated like T-72, what's the point? 30mm ammo will be safer? Hey, plenty of BMP-2/3 tossed turret too.


Didn't see video and there isn't any reason to think T-80 or any tank pack with 125mm charges inside is more safe then BMPT. It ISNT. It is so simple to understand.

In case of T-64/72/80 and even newer T-90, if you penetrate side armor which can be done with 30mm from close range, you hit 125mm powder charges and then you have KaBOOM.

In case of BMPT-2 v2.0 (one with 3 crew member and without 30mm launchers) which we saw on video, you dont even have flammable 30mm grenades, at best you hit 30mm rounds which all have metal casings so cook off is lot harder if you have decent fire suppression system.


BMP2 armor is thin can and it have WW2 like fire suppression system.

BMP3 are you serious:
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg- ... d125454-lq

Soviet ifv and apc are deadly traps. Period. No wonder USSR start working on BMPT and something similar to T-15 during Afganistan war.

Also BMPT have much better protection form top down attacks then any tank in this war. If you look it have thick roof armor and also heavy era design to counter tandem warhead. Of course you can still hit not protected parts of roof like hatches but those you have on any tank so...

And you can destroy BMPT, no one say you can't but it doesn't go KaBooM in soviet mbt style and is harder to be take out by top down weapons. To me that qualified it lot safer then anything else in this war.

Good thing for Ukrainians, Russians didn't have much of them.
Last edited by milosh on 22 May 2022, 17:38, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

loke

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1239
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post22 May 2022, 16:53

hornetfinn wrote:Invest even more into 5th gen fighter capability. Best 4th gen Russian aircraft are getting shot down regularly with systems from 1980s and 1970s in Ukraine. I think that for example Germany should really buy at least 100 F-35s more than they are planning to do.

Germany is part of NATO -- you should look at how many F-35s NATO will be flying in just a few years. The number is already quite good and it's growing year-by-year.

“The disposition of the NATO nations with respect to the F-35 is dramatically growing,” Wolters said. “And our hope is, we have 100 on the continent right now, and we anticipate in 2030, growing to 550, and that’s a good fleet.”
https://www.airforcemag.com/nato-comman ... e-by-2030/

German Typhoons will manage quite well for many years to come. In a2a they will be able to handle anything Russia would be able to throw at them. The German F-35s can, together with other NATO F-35 focus on SEAD/DEAD and other more challenging missions. Typhoons, F-16, Rafales and Gripens can focus on all missions that are not too close to advanced SAMs. Ukraine is desperate to get MiG-29 -- imagine how happy they would be for some old F-16 or Gripen instead!

I don't see a need for more F-35 in NATO in the foreseeable future. And 20-25 years from now France/Germany/Spain will start operating their own 5th gen fighter jets, as will the UK/Italy/Sweden with Tempest. So still no need for more F-35.

NATOs air capabilities are already unmatched, and the gap will only grow.

What NATO should get more of: ammunition, missiles, drones, artillery, air defense systems.
Offline

zhangmdev

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 668
  • Joined: 01 May 2017, 09:07

Unread post22 May 2022, 18:26

milosh wrote:
Didn't saw video and there isn't any reason to think T-80 or any tank pack with 125mm charges inside is more safe then BMPT. It ISNT. It is so simple to understand.

...


I am talking about the survivability of the turret, not the crew. Both sides in the war have shown photos of their MBT had multiple ERA blocks on the turret shot off and survived. I am skeptical about the rather flimsy structure of the supposedly remotely controlled turret. One shot you are out of the fight.

The design of BMPT was out of the disastrous experience of Grozny. As usual it is not a clean slate design. The Russians are tinkering with the venerable T-72 chassis. Understandably it inherits the limitations of the T-72 chassis. A major one is it is too low. To achieve certain depression, the gun has to be mounted at certain height. It can not have a substantial turret that high because that would be too heavy.

You can argue how beefed up it is, and how safe its ammo is. Doesn't matter in the street battle. It has the weak point of T-72, so it is just as vulnerable. Once the hull is breached, it is done.

Overall I am skeptical about the combat effectiveness of such a specalist weapon. It is a weird thing with the firepower of two IFV but carries no troops. Just another over-hyped "modern" superweapon from Russia. In the meanwhile, troops are sitting on top of APC being targeted by ATGM. The callous attitude to human life never changed.

Finally, calling it Terminator is a bad omen. Remember the original Terminator, the hunter/killer tank? It was blown up by a soldier throwing a grenade.
Offline

zhangmdev

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 668
  • Joined: 01 May 2017, 09:07

Unread post23 May 2022, 06:13

May 14, Su-25 from 299th Tactical Aviation Brigade shot down by Russian forces in Huliaipole, Zaporizhzhia region. The Pilot Captain Serhiy Parkomenko died.

https://www.aviation-safety.net/wikibase/278267

"Today, from 50 to 100 people can die in our most difficult direction, in the direction of the east of our country." Zelensky noted.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4043
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post23 May 2022, 09:27

loke wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Invest even more into 5th gen fighter capability. Best 4th gen Russian aircraft are getting shot down regularly with systems from 1980s and 1970s in Ukraine. I think that for example Germany should really buy at least 100 F-35s more than they are planning to do.

Germany is part of NATO -- you should look at how many F-35s NATO will be flying in just a few years. The number is already quite good and it's growing year-by-year.

“The disposition of the NATO nations with respect to the F-35 is dramatically growing,” Wolters said. “And our hope is, we have 100 on the continent right now, and we anticipate in 2030, growing to 550, and that’s a good fleet.”
https://www.airforcemag.com/nato-comman ... e-by-2030/

German Typhoons will manage quite well for many years to come. In a2a they will be able to handle anything Russia would be able to throw at them. The German F-35s can, together with other NATO F-35 focus on SEAD/DEAD and other more challenging missions. Typhoons, F-16, Rafales and Gripens can focus on all missions that are not too close to advanced SAMs. Ukraine is desperate to get MiG-29 -- imagine how happy they would be for some old F-16 or Gripen instead!

I don't see a need for more F-35 in NATO in the foreseeable future. And 20-25 years from now France/Germany/Spain will start operating their own 5th gen fighter jets, as will the UK/Italy/Sweden with Tempest. So still no need for more F-35.

NATOs air capabilities are already unmatched, and the gap will only grow.

What NATO should get more of: ammunition, missiles, drones, artillery, air defense systems.


Oh, I agree with much of that. However if Germany is truly going to spend as much as they are planning to, then they could also increase the number of F-35s to be bought and also buy all that other stuff you mention. My proposal is for a more balanced force of Eurofighter Typhoons (air-to-air and some stand-off strike missions) and F-35s (air-to-everything). Like 200 Eurofighters and 100 F-35s. Actually 100 F-35s would be pretty much the same number of Panavia Tornados they have now (IDS and ECR combined). Yes there are a lot of F-35s in Europe, but more would not hurt. Especially since Germany is so big economy that it could easily support that kind of Luftwaffe. Then they could replace Eurofighters with Tempest when it becomes ready. With that kind of force they could send reasonable sized units to several places at the same time if there is real need while retaining good defences over Germany itself.
Offline

zhangmdev

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 668
  • Joined: 01 May 2017, 09:07

Unread post23 May 2022, 12:24

From Popasna to Bakhmut, the Russians have had the breakthrough to envelope Severodonetsk. If succeeded, this could decide the outcome of this war. Of this phase at least. At this point, it is not looking good.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... ent-may-22

Edit: Su-25 tossing rockets

final_628b90cf417ea500ddd048e3_640602.jpg
Su-25
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4129
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post23 May 2022, 16:07

zhangmdev wrote:Edit:

Su-25 tossing rockets


Russian or Ukrainian?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

zhangmdev

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 668
  • Joined: 01 May 2017, 09:07

Unread post23 May 2022, 16:46

Searched Telegram/h_saltovka

Since the beginning of the invasion, Kharkiv has been a constantly shelled city. Russian troops have already destroyed a fifth of the buildings. As a result of the attacks, they also destroyed the tram depot.

https://raportkolejowy.pl/tramwaje-w-ch ... -kursowac/

Seems it is someone reporting from Kharkiv, not a Russian cheerleader. So that Su-25 likely is Ukrainian.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4129
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post23 May 2022, 17:21

zhangmdev wrote:So that Su-25 likely is Ukrainian.


Thanks!
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

zhangmdev

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 668
  • Joined: 01 May 2017, 09:07

Unread post24 May 2022, 08:32

Allegedly first video of Switchblade in action. Seems the tanker jumped at the last second and survived.

final_628c8602e29eff00bd7c8a15_191825a.jpg
Switchblade


Edit1: VDV 31st Guards Air Assault brigade near Hostomel airport

Edit2: Incredible report from Severodonetsk

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war- ... r-12620608

vlcsnap-2022-05-24-22h29m05s663.jpg
31st air assault
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1556
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26
  • Warnings: 3

Unread post25 May 2022, 15:43

This is an interesting bit of news that flew under most people's radar...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... order.html

It's unknown when Kamenshchikov fled Russia and traveled to Mexico, although he has not been seen publicly or attended any parliamentary hearings since speaking out against Putin's invasion.

He has now been arrested at the US-Mexico border.

A source told Russian state news agency RIA Novosti that 'it is not yet known' why Kamenshchikov was arrested but 'presumably for an illegal border crossing.'

Kamenshchikov reportedly has a child who is a United States citizen by birthright.

Offline

pron

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 278
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 19:28

Unread post25 May 2022, 16:16

Russia are digging deeper and deeper in the MBT inventory. T-62 are moved to the front.
They are maybe good at shooting apartment buildings.
https://twitter.com/CanadianUkrain1/sta ... 4564406274
Offline

pron

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 278
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 19:28

Unread post25 May 2022, 17:54

Retired Russian Air Force Major General Kanamat Botashev was shot down (Stinger missile) and killed in the sky over Ukraine.
He was there with the PMC Wagner group.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-61559430
Offline

mmm

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 122
  • Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 10:58

Unread post25 May 2022, 18:14

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/switchblade-3 ... irst-time/

Switchblade 300 is clearly not ideal for this battlefield, it's probably good for smashing into the face of insurgent planting IED but not harming his bystanding donkey 5m away. Situation in Ukraine is a bit different, I were to guess they'd prefer a tandem shaped charge warhead with fragmentation big and fast enough to go through ceramic body armor.

zhangmdev wrote:Allegedly first video of Switchblade in action. Seems the tanker jumped at the last second and survived.

final_628c8602e29eff00bd7c8a15_191825a.jpg

Case in point had an AT warhead caused a secondary explosion of ammo and fuel the outcome could look very different.

But EFOGM got canned, then NLOS-LS, I don't believe precision mortar round went anywhere either, 600 model of Switchblade is barely in LRIP for a low volume end user of SOCOM, it's the limit of what US can offer here. Israel has near monopoly in the market but they don't want to sell, maybe try Japan to see if they'd like to loan any Type 96 MPM I guess.

And they don't seem to cause any integration issue, they work fine as standalone capability in addition to any kind of military imaginable, from Azerbaijan to UK, to South Korea. Had Ukraine had access to a few thousand rounds of HERO-120 or Spike-LR/ER/NLOS they'd probably require a lot fewer logistically burdenous traditional artillery.
Last edited by mmm on 26 May 2022, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
PreviousNext

Return to Air Power

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests