Chinese weapons and tactics

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jessmo112

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 05:17

mmm wrote:Really? Navalized Flanker can take off with a 200m roll without choosing between a useful A-G load or full tank of internal fuel, on a routine operational basis not a one off demonstration of sort with a ton of caveats? If so I must have underestimated how much the ramp helps, or misunderstood how it really works. Is it not basically using the vertical component of engine thrust to compensate for insufficient lift? Think of it F-22 with TVC is a reasonable approximation, and that's where it doesn't make sense to me. Where does it find the help to shave the takeoff distance by more than half? As far as I understand it gets up to 30kt at full flank speed help from moving carrier, locked in place until ramped to full power, some altitude to drop before going underwater, and I dunno, I read about in passing some afterburner override. That's enough? Or I misunderstood something important?

Anyhow my thinking was whether it's operational limitation or sortie generation, if it is not efficient to operate something this expensive from STOBAR it might as well not. For many scenarios it might as well operate from land base, and retool the 2 of a kind for something else.


Isn't that in a shorter distance than the F-35B? I thought the F-35B took off at 500ft? How does a twin engine fighter, that's one of the heavier fighters around take off from a ramp shorter than the F-35‽
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jessmo112

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 05:34

Here is an excerpt from Quora.

What runway length would be enough for F-35C to launch it from aircraft carriers with ski jump?
Thus far, only the F-35B variant has been tested for ski jump takeoffs, and it is designed to achieve a safe launch with a combat load (2x AIM-120, 4x 1000-pound JDAM, full fuel) on a 600 foot runway unassisted, 450 foot with ski-jump assist.

The F-35C is specifically designed for catapult takeoffs, and is substantially heavier than the F-35B — it has a heavier airframe, a larger fuel load, and a greater weapons capacity. It has similar wing loading thanks to its larger wings, but will require a substantially greater distance to accelerate to takeoff speed without a catapult boost.

The F-35C’s unassisted minimum takeoff distance will almost certainly be comparable to that of other carrier-based conventional takeoff fighters; the Super Hornet requires 1, 350 feet for unassisted takeoff at full load and the Rafale requires 400 metres (1,312 feet). That is a little more than twice the requirement of the short takeoff F-35B, but less than a quarter of the 8, 000 feet required for the land-based F-35A

So I'm very confused.
F-35B with ski jump=450-500
F-35B 600 feet unassisted 4 Jdam 2XAmraam
Rafale=13,12 conventional
F-35C=13,50 conventional
J-15 200 WITH SKI JUMP?

SOMETHING doesn't add up.
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jessmo112

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 05:35

I'm sorry I saw meters as feet.

So the J-15 needs about 200 meters (around 650 feet)
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weasel1962

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 07:14

200m (667ft) is the rear spot. 120m (400 ft) are the front 2 spots. its a function of weight and thrust. That J-15/Su-33s can take off from the 120m spot w ski jump is already demonstrated.

F-35B can do 0m/0ft which is a vertical takeoff at lower take off weights. That's also demonstrated.
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jessmo112

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Unread post18 Jan 2022, 21:56

More on the Chinese carrier ops. A 1st hand report by U.S. sailors observing, noted that flight ops are limited
By the lack of a cat.

https://eurasiantimes.com/chinas-much-h ... posed/?amp

Eurasia times is not the most reliable source, but the site shouldn't matter in this case.
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weasel1962

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Unread post19 Jan 2022, 01:09

For an article that doesn't mean "cat" or "catapult" once throughout, it sure is amazing how it can turn out to be a 1st hand report about how operations can be limited by the lack of a cat.
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jessmo112

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Unread post19 Jan 2022, 03:27

weasel1962 wrote:For an article that doesn't mean "cat" or "catapult" once throughout, it sure is amazing how it can turn out to be a 1st hand report about how operations can be limited by the lack of a cat.


Please enlighten us. What do you think is the limiting factor in operations? Is it the planes themselves? Is it the galley? Ohh the coffee machine? I myself cannot live without my K-cup machine these days. Is it the food? The copious amounts of Spicy Asian red chili sauce used in real Chinese food? Let's look at future carrier designs to see what they believe the limiting factor is.
Hmm now what could be the next shift in Chinese carrier design? What could the next ship have that thos one doesn't?
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weasel1962

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Unread post19 Jan 2022, 07:53

Its not personal nor is it about my opinion. Just highlighting that you posted a statement and supported it with a source that did not appear to support your statement. Got to admit I would be interested in reading such "1st hand reports", if they do exist.
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jessmo112

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Unread post29 Jan 2022, 01:16

Is Brahmos even a threat to China?

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... p-missile/

The Philippines should invest In a Air defense bubble.
Maybe S-300 types to create an anti-acess bubble.
With out advanced airdefenses what's to stop the Chinese from sending fighter bomber to strike the?
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wrightwing

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Unread post29 Jan 2022, 09:15

jessmo112 wrote:Here is an excerpt from Quora.

What runway length would be enough for F-35C to launch it from aircraft carriers with ski jump?
Thus far, only the F-35B variant has been tested for ski jump takeoffs, and it is designed to achieve a safe launch with a combat load (2x AIM-120, 4x 1000-pound JDAM, full fuel) on a 600 foot runway unassisted, 450 foot with ski-jump assist.

The F-35C is specifically designed for catapult takeoffs, and is substantially heavier than the F-35B — it has a heavier airframe, a larger fuel load, and a greater weapons capacity. It has similar wing loading thanks to its larger wings, but will require a substantially greater distance to accelerate to takeoff speed without a catapult boost.

The F-35C’s unassisted minimum takeoff distance will almost certainly be comparable to that of other carrier-based conventional takeoff fighters; the Super Hornet requires 1, 350 feet for unassisted takeoff at full load and the Rafale requires 400 metres (1,312 feet). That is a little more than twice the requirement of the short takeoff F-35B, but less than a quarter of the 8, 000 feet required for the land-based F-35A

So I'm very confused.
F-35B with ski jump=450-500
F-35B 600 feet unassisted 4 Jdam 2XAmraam
Rafale=13,12 conventional
F-35C=13,50 conventional
J-15 200 WITH SKI JUMP?

SOMETHING doesn't add up.

The F-35A doesn't "need" 8,000 feet of runway. That's a USAF regulation for all fighter aircraft. A Flanker isn't taking off in 200m with full fuel and a heavy weapon load. That's why until catapult carriers are available, Flankers are very marginal in range/payload.
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Feb 2022, 19:12

So it appears that Chinas strategy is to fight everyone.
I don't know what's going on with copy and paste for links so I'll summarize.

The Chinese have told Japan to stay away because they can beat the U.S. so Japan should fear.
China has plans for attacking Singapore if they assist the U.S.
China will attack and defeat anyone who comes to Taiwans aid, or helps the U.S.

China has no problem fighting the world.
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madrat

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Unread post15 Feb 2022, 21:17

China loves theater. That's all you have to know.
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tphuang

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Unread post27 Feb 2022, 14:19

jessmo112 wrote:Is Brahmos even a threat to China?

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... p-missile/

The Philippines should invest In a Air defense bubble.
Maybe S-300 types to create an anti-acess bubble.
With out advanced airdefenses what's to stop the Chinese from sending fighter bomber to strike the?


Why should Philippines do that? It's getting a lot of weapons from China. The relationship between the two countries are pretty good. There is nothing Philippines could afford that would allow it to stop a determined PLAAF from suppressing its air defense.

The Chinese have told Japan to stay away because they can beat the U.S. so Japan should fear.

If there is a conflict and Japan joins US, of course China will have to fight Japan.

China has plans for attacking Singapore if they assist the U.S.

Why would Singapore assist the US? China has the number one resource that Singapore needs that America could never supply. Han Chinese people. How else will Singapore be able to retain its goal of having Han Chinese majority in its country?

China will attack and defeat anyone who comes to Taiwans aid, or helps the U.S.

If China plays it right, it can achieve some level of alliance with Taiwan and no invasion ever has to happen. It never had the stick to pressure Taiwanese military until the past couple of years.

You can think of 2 period. Before H-20 and after H-20. Most countries don't have dedicated anti-stealth and heavily layered air defense system like China does. They are not ready to face stealth bombers.

If you want to know what the american military is really concerned about with China right now, you just have to look at their statement.
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 99236.html
https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dom ... -spectrum/
Today, as a result, China can send pulses from their radars “that are different every time,” Hinote said. “Yes—that’s happening right now.”

The Chinese became so good at electromagnetic spectrum warfare in the interim that today “they absolutely believe that [EMS] superiority is a prerequisite for victory,” Hinote said, suggesting that denying China use of the spectrum could be enough to deter it from fighting. “Maybe it’s enough that we deny the use of the electromagnetic spectrum to China,” he said, by filling “the airwaves with electromagnetic energy to the point where you could walk on it. … To make it so difficult to operate in the electromagnetic spectrum that it’s mutually denied space.”

Sure USAF is worried about PLARF ballistic missiles, but that level of threat is not sustainable. If J-20/J-16/J-16D have better radar/EW suite than F-35/super hornets/growlers (or equal), that's a huge problem.

Three large conventional development to watch out for from China:
1) how quickly H-20 achieves IOC status
2) how quickly J-20 production ramps up
3) how good China gets in EW
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jessmo112

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Unread post27 Feb 2022, 15:35

What on God's great earth would make you think that the Chinese EW, on the J-20 and J-10 is better than the F-35‽

Let me put it this way:

1. Has China secured its own Chip manufacturing on par with western chip makers?

2. Do you know anyone buying China sourced chips‽ (note not assembled, but sourced).

3. Is there any China sourced and made electronic that's preferred over a western counterpart?
The West rejected the China sourced 5 g network.
What about games, tablets, consumer electronics?

4. What about China's, cars, planes, guns, or anything?

Please name 1 product that is soul sourced from China and is superior to a western equal!!
Now how is it that you can assume dominance in the military sector, when everything else they make is lesser quality? Do I need to press my point?
We have quotes on the internet from countries that have bought China's UAVs and vehicles, and they are NOT flattering. BTW I like my kool-aid in grape flavor.
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tphuang

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Unread post27 Feb 2022, 21:56

jessmo112 wrote:What on God's great earth would make you think that the Chinese EW, on the J-20 and J-10 is better than the F-35‽

Let me put it this way:

1. Has China secured its own Chip manufacturing on par with western chip makers?

2. Do you know anyone buying China sourced chips‽ (note not assembled, but sourced).

3. Is there any China sourced and made electronic that's preferred over a western counterpart?
The West rejected the China sourced 5 g network.
What about games, tablets, consumer electronics?

4. What about China's, cars, planes, guns, or anything?

Please name 1 product that is soul sourced from China and is superior to a western equal!!
Now how is it that you can assume dominance in the military sector, when everything else they make is lesser quality? Do I need to press my point?
We have quotes on the internet from countries that have bought China's UAVs and vehicles, and they are NOT flattering. BTW I like my kool-aid in grape flavor.


I get it from USAF. https://www.airforcemag.com/article/usa ... ina-china/

Hinote emphasized that the Chinese air force is already “at parity … in key areas” with the capabilities of the U.S. Air Force, and in a few “important areas we’re behind, tonight,” although he didn’t offer specifics.

“The light is blinking red,” Hinote told reporters. “We are out of time.”


You should watch his interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIGyCN6kBeo

Very intelligent man and very humble. I can assure you that there are some really smart people running both USAF and PLAAF. I can't really say the same about the politicians.

btw, I never said J-20 has better EW suite than F-35, but USAF is taking that threat very seriously and so should you. Don't let the recent RuAF performance affect your judgment of PLAAF. The latter is a couple of generations ahead of the former in EW.

In case you are wondering where USAF is learning of these things. PLAAF has been running circles around Taiwan and manipulating ROCAF radars. If USAF is telling you that Chinese Air Force is sending a different pulse every time, it's probably because JASDF and ROCAF are seeing that and having a hard time dealing with it.

Keep in mind that what China exports vs what it uses for itself is quite different. There has been a huge acceleration in China's electronic industry in the past decade and a huge acceleration in its radar and EW capabilities. China is not going to be exporting any of that to other countries. In fact, has America exported growler to any country outside of Australia? Now that J-16D is flying around a lot more. I'm sure we will hear more about its capabilities from US military in the next year or so.
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