Computer "Attack" modes in current planes

[viperzerof-2]

I cannot believe the U.S. birds don't have CCIP or radar bombing modes, and CCIP strafe/RX. And besides, potential adversaries are working countermeasures as we write, you can bet on it.

I don't know if the F-35 has a CCIP mode but I'm confident that it should have at least a CCRP mode.
During bomb release in the F-35 simulator it's possible to see the same type of vertical line that comes up in CCRP modes.
I'll attach here two (2) images showing this.

The attached images where taken from the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88vCjQ8fCb0&t=711s

Great find!

I know that the apg-77(v)1 and apg-81 use air to ground modes based on the apg-80 which I have seen with dumb bombs. Maybe it is at least available as an option?

[hornetfinn]

I have no idea about some other radars, but at least Grifo-E radar from Leonardo has both CCIP and CCRP:
https://www.leonardo.us/radar-grifo-e

Weapon System Integration
Multiple target tracking supporting accurate weapon aiming
Compatibility with modern IR missiles (e.g. AIM-9L M-X,
Python 4)
Capable of BVR missile guidance
Support of CCIP and CCRP through precise air-to-surface ranging

AFAIK, that radar has not been adopted by anyone, but shows that such modes might still be present in modern radars. All it needs is just software to do it. I do think that such methods need to be there at least as a backup for other delivery modes.

[quicksilver]

Generally, CCIP and CCRP (AUTO in A-C Hornet and Harrier) delivery modes are not dependent on a radar. The radar simply provides another HAT (height above target) source. Other HAT sources might include the radalt, DTED, baro, or other sensors depending on which fighter you might be talking about.

[ricnunes]

Generally, CCIP and CCRP (AUTO in A-C Hornet and Harrier) delivery modes are not dependent on a radar. The radar simply provides another HAT (height above target) source. Other HAT sources might include the radalt, DTED, baro, or other sensors depending on which fighter you might be talking about.

Are you sure about CCRP?

Yes, I'm aware that CCIP doesn't or shouldn't require radar as like you said the Constantly Computed Impact Point (CCIP) can be calculated using other sensors/sources like the ones you mentioned.

However and from my understanding, CCRP (Continuously Computed Release Point) seems to require radar (or similar designating sensor) since the point of impact is often a designated target (it could also be a point on the ground) where the pilot must fly straight to this same designated target while keeping the pickle (release) button pressed and when the computer calculated counter reaches zero (0) the bomb is then released. Since CCRP requires a designated target (or point on the ground) then a radar or other designator sensor such a EO/IR should be required for this mode.

The alternative for this (using CCRP without radar or EO/IR) would be a point of the ground based on coordinates which would be tied up to the aircraft's navigation system but this IMO wouldn't give the pilot the possibility of autonomously engaging (using the own aircraft's sensors) Target Of Opportunity targets using CCRP, unless using HUD/HMD which wouldn't be nearly as precise as using the radar or EO/IR for the effect.

I do think that such methods need to be there at least as a backup for other delivery modes.

The keyword here is indeed "backup".

I believe that all modern aircraft including the F-35 must have backup bombing modes. I also believe that it should also have CCIP together with CCRP as like I mentioned above, IMO it's almost a given that the F-35 has at least CCRP mode. On top of this, we must not forget that (western) "GPS guided" bombs are actually "INS guided" bombs (assisted/coupled with GPS for better precision).

So even in a completely 100% GPS denied/degraded environment (if that's actually a possibility?) then CCRP coupled with (only) the INS guided system of bombs such as JDAMs or SDBs should give at least the same level of accuracy or probably even more than dumb bombs being released using CCIP or CCRP modes, all of this without using GPS at all.

[quicksilver]

Are you sure about CCRP?

Yes, I am. There are a variety of ways to attain a designated target. Doesn’t require a radar…

You, yourself explained it above. Read your own explanation.

[ricnunes]

Are you sure about CCRP?

Yes, I am. There are a variety of ways to attain a designated target. Doesn’t require a radar…

You, yourself explained it above. Read your own explanation.

So, basically what you're saying (by other words) is that the only thing that a radar would do when it comes to CCRP is to send the target/impact point position/coordinates to another system and this other system would be the one that handles the CCRP calculations and display, eh?

[quicksilver]

Are you sure about CCRP?

Yes, I am. There are a variety of ways to attain a designated target. Doesn’t require a radar…

You, yourself explained it above. Read your own explanation.

So, basically what you're saying (by other words) is that the only thing that a radar would do when it comes to CCRP is to send the target/impact point position/coordinates to another system and this other system would be the one that handles the CCRP calculations and display, eh?

A radar can do a number of things, but a radar input IS NOT REQUIRED for a CCRP/AUTO delivery. Can it be used? Yes, with very beneficial effects. Is it (the radar) required? No.

All of the inputs necessary can be provided by other sensors/systems on the jet.

[ricnunes]

A radar can do a number of things, but a radar input IS NOT REQUIRED for a CCRP/AUTO delivery. Can it be used? Yes, with very beneficial effects. Is it (the radar) required? No.

All of the inputs necessary can be provided by other sensors/systems on the jet.

Thanks for the heads up, QS!

This basically confirms what I imagined and suspected (about CCRP).

[hornetfinn]

Yeah, after giving it some thought, it's quite clear that radar is just one input for those modes among many and not even required system. For such modes you definitely need inputs about:

- Aircraft state, like
* position data
* forward airspeed
* vertical velocity
* angle of attack
* pitch / roll / yaw

- Environmental factors like temperature and air pressure
* Target coordinates + elevation at least relative to aircraft (for CCRP)

- Weapon ballistic data

Probably many other things need to be taken into account. In any case, modern aircraft definitely have sensors and data available for all of these (with extremely good accuracy) and it's just matter of software to do the necessary math and display the results to the pilot and automate the weapons release in case of CCRP.

Of course the radar is otherwise very important sensor for the attack aircraft as it can build a detailed real-time picture of the target area (SAR and DBS for example) and have GMTI and other useful features to best employ these modes.

[Gums]

Salute!

Late in the thread, BZ past few days tending to med probs.

We must clarify terms, and the mode that has most confusion is CCRP. Basically, you flew to a point in space where releasing the bomb at existing velocities would place it on a trajectory resulting in a hit. You followed steering cues and held the pickle button down until computed bomb range equaled required range and away she went.

In CCIP, HAL calculates the bomb or bullet/rocket impact pt at existing velocities and presents the death dot. Bomb/bullet/rocket goes thru the pipper. You definitely needed the radar or LIDAR looking thru it in rough terrain, but it is possible to get good hits if it uses known elevation, and the dot is then only true for tgts at that elevation.

It's the HaT part of the ballistic calculations that have the most back up/alternate means of getting required data to HAL.
They require explanation that I can give, but tired now and need rest during my recovery.

Gums sends...

[Gums]

Salute!

I would be careful asserting how much you can do without the the fwd-looking radar. In both the Sluf and Viper we used "system altitude" and known, entered tgt elevation for CCRP/radar mode deliveries. The radar altitude could be used but with care. Best bet was system altitude and I bet the F-35 can use that cosmic radar for just one beam and get every thing - , x-y and z, with its EO stuff a super backup for x-y.

One good example of using everything you have was the Viper radar's "freeze" mode. I checked out with three other Americans, two Danes, and three Norwegians. One of the Norwegians was the troop that actually got the mode included. Was especially good for targeting their Penguin anti-ship missile. Fly in a fyord, pop up and scan, get back on the deck and designate a target for the missile. The display also looked like a map with your position obvious, he heh. That mode prolly used radar alt, but I don't have a Dash-34.

Can answer more about which sensors had best uses and shortcomings, having dropped many bombs using them - both while getting shot at and being "graded" at Red Flag or on the range.

Gums sends...