Su-57 is a misunderstood aircraft

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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xt0xickillax

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 02:00

Recently there’s so much writing about how much the Su-57 is flawed, and how it’s not a true 5th generation fighter. To be this is grossly misunderstanding what Su-57 is. The aircraft is supposed to be a silver bullet force that outflies anything in the air. It’s kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed, has distributed sensors and IRST and AESA like F-35, and even has DIRCM that can neutralize heat seeking missiles. Those saying it’s not being bought in large numbers, that’s the point because it’s meant to be an elite force meant to defeat the toughest opponents, while most missions can be done by Su-35 or Su-30SM or the upcoming Checkmate. It’s the hi in the hi-lo combo.

Those saying it’s not stealthy enough, you think you can tell just by eyeball? Or you know more than Sukhoi? Not even LM has claimed Su-57 isn’t stealthy. Even then, it has DIRCM and L402 ECM that can wreak havoc with AAMs, and anything that gets in a gunfight with Su-57 is dead meat. Su-57 takes a balanced approach to survivability with good enough stealth, tons of countermeasures, and the highest maneuverability to date and the best speed of all 5th generation fighters, as the large oversized intakes and variable geometry intake ramps show.

Su-57 doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like F-35 has but that’s not the point and it’s not supposed to be a cheap affordable 5th generation aircraft like F-35, that’s what Checkmate is for. Su-57 is designed for ultimate air superiority to counter F-22 and fits well with Russian design philosophy having the advantage in key characteristics or not inferior in any substantial way. It’s only beginning in terms of its life and how upgrades it will be, just like the original Su-27. And don’t get me started on piece of crap J-20.

In fact, the Su-57 is a far better aircraft than the J-20, which is a MiG knockoff and blended with components the Chinese copied from F-22 and F-35. For all the puff pieces about how good the J-20 is, it hasn’t done anything impressive in a single air show and all the claims are just from Chinese brochure.
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viperzerof-2

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 03:36

Saying the Su-57 is supposed to outfly everything in the air is quite the bold claim. I remember how the Flanker with its super maneuverability was supposed to outfly everything in the air. It’s ultra powerful PESA was gunna spot stealth targets like they were flying barns. Well that didn’t work out. This day and age sensors are a massive piece of the puzzle and now Russia who couldn’t build an AESA for field use in-spite of the fact the US and Japan did 20 years ago is at or near the top? I doubt it. The Truth is Russia isn’t building more Su-57s because 1) sanctions in 2014 have made components needed more expensive and 2) they simply can’t build enough to benefit from economy of scale. It’s just more hype. The Russian military industrial complex has lost its credibility, this isn’t just some secret exception we all simply fail to understand.
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xt0xickillax

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 03:44

Su-57 does have N036 AESA made by NIIP and it’s in production. They aren’t building them very fast because of how much technology is in the aircraft including stuff never seen in other fighters like DIRCM. But 78 aircraft is still a healthy number for silver bullet force against most demanding enemies. It a Lamborghini that you don’t use all the time. Su-57 is only 5th generation fighter with 3D TVC, large oversized intake with variable geometry, LEVCON. If anything the kinematics is unmatched. It doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like the F-35 but it’s only meant as a special force for very demanding opponents. Keep in mind Su-57 is stealthy too and with DIRCM and EW systems, so it will be very difficult to see and target.
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viperzerof-2

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 04:04

xt0xickillax wrote:Su-57 does have N036 AESA made by NIIP and it’s in production. They aren’t building them very fast because of how much technology is in the aircraft including stuff never seen in other fighters like DIRCM. But 78 aircraft is still a healthy number for silver bullet force against most demanding enemies. It a Lamborghini that you don’t use all the time. Su-57 is only 5th generation fighter with 3D TVC, large oversized intake with variable geometry, LEVCON. If anything the kinematics is unmatched. It doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like the F-35 but it’s only meant as a special force for very demanding opponents. Keep in mind Su-57 is stealthy too and with DIRCM and EW systems, so it will be very difficult to see and target.

I am aware the N036 is an AESA, but their is a massive difference between AESA. Given the relatively poor state of the Russian Semi conductor industry and a less then excellent reputation in software integration I’m skeptical it’s a world beater.

We know from downed Russian Su-30 Su-34 and Su-35 how reliant Russia is on foreign components and especially foreign chips. These have been increasingly difficult to obtain since 2014 and especially since last February.

We can’t look at something an know it’s RCS but we can see aspects of the design are clearly counter intuitive. Partially exposed engine blades, antenna and other exposed things don’t paint a good picture. Boeing and Russia are found of the term balance but in this case it’s seemingly code for not good enough.

The Su-57 uses the same canted 2d thrust vectoring scheme the Su-30 and Su-35 uses we even have the patent t prove it. It seems unclear how useful Thrust vectoring is in a fight, High Alpha is good but Sukohi aircraft seem to take a ballistic approach and don’t appear controllable when in use. From the F-16 MATV and F-22 it seems thrust vectoring is most useful when it acts almost as an extra control surface or used for high altitude supersonic mobility. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. In terms of turn rates, rolling, acceleration we don’t have much to go on but nothing really suggests the aircraft is exceptional among its peers.

I don’t argue the Su-57 is bad, but I think it’s the minimum you need in a modern high end platform, not a silver bullet.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 04:14

xt0xickillax wrote:Recently there’s so much writing about how much the Su-57 is flawed, and how it’s not a true 5th generation fighter. To be this is grossly misunderstanding what Su-57 is. The aircraft is supposed to be a silver bullet force that outflies anything in the air. It’s kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed, has distributed sensors and IRST and AESA like F-35, and even has DIRCM that can neutralize heat seeking missiles. Those saying it’s not being bought in large numbers, that’s the point because it’s meant to be an elite force meant to defeat the toughest opponents, while most missions can be done by Su-35 or Su-30SM or the upcoming Checkmate. It’s the hi in the hi-lo combo.

Those saying it’s not stealthy enough, you think you can tell just by eyeball? Or you know more than Sukhoi? Not even LM has claimed Su-57 isn’t stealthy. Even then, it has DIRCM and L402 ECM that can wreak havoc with AAMs, and anything that gets in a gunfight with Su-57 is dead meat. Su-57 takes a balanced approach to survivability with good enough stealth, tons of countermeasures, and the highest maneuverability to date and the best speed of all 5th generation fighters, as the large oversized intakes and variable geometry intake ramps show.

Su-57 doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like F-35 has but that’s not the point and it’s not supposed to be a cheap affordable 5th generation aircraft like F-35, that’s what Checkmate is for. Su-57 is designed for ultimate air superiority to counter F-22 and fits well with Russian design philosophy having the advantage in key characteristics or not inferior in any substantial way. It’s only beginning in terms of its life and how upgrades it will be, just like the original Su-27. And don’t get me started on piece of crap J-20.

In fact, the Su-57 is a far better aircraft than the J-20, which is a MiG knockoff and blended with components the Chinese copied from F-22 and F-35. For all the puff pieces about how good the J-20 is, it hasn’t done anything impressive in a single air show and all the claims are just from Chinese brochure.

So you quote Russian brochures, to critique Chinese brochures?
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 17:58

xt0xickillax wrote:Su-57 does have N036 AESA made by NIIP and it’s in production. They aren’t building them very fast because of how much technology is in the aircraft including stuff never seen in other fighters like DIRCM. But 78 aircraft is still a healthy number for silver bullet force against most demanding enemies. It a Lamborghini that you don’t use all the time. Su-57 is only 5th generation fighter with 3D TVC, large oversized intake with variable geometry, LEVCON. If anything the kinematics is unmatched. It doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like the F-35 but it’s only meant as a special force for very demanding opponents. Keep in mind Su-57 is stealthy too and with DIRCM and EW systems, so it will be very difficult to see and target.


It's an interesting study in design philosophy, that's for sure. But you seem enamored with yesterday's most important fighter qualities - TVC, super-maneuverability, un-matched kinematics (not all of which is true). On paper, the new engine might mean it'll fly faster and higher than say, the F-22. But we've been hearing the new engine is coming for quite some time, and sanctions along with other issues don't point to that situation getting any better.

Silver bullet force is fine and all, except when you're out-numbered 3, 5, 10 to 1 or more. At that point, the numbers matter and matter a hell of a lot. Especially since the F-35 is far more survivable, has far better sensors and soon, the AIM-260. And that's precisely the situation the SU-57/Russia will find itself in, when going up against NATO F-22's and 35''s. Considering how the 3 day "special military operation in Ukraine" is going, not an unlikely scenario.

That battlefield has also largely tarnished the Flanker's reputation (all models). Their vaunted SU-30's and SU-35's still haven't achieved air superiority 9 months on. Not even close. Even adding the Mig-31, they still can't get it done. SU-34's make brilliant fireballs when shot down with MANPADS, while still dropping overwhelmingly unguided munitions.

There is no reason to believe a "silver bullet" SU-57 force, will fair any better. No matter what Vlad/the brochures say...
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 18:55

xt0xickillax wrote:Recently there’s so much writing about how much the Su-57 is flawed, and how it’s not a true 5th generation fighter. To be this is grossly misunderstanding what Su-57 is.


Of course the Su-57 is "flawed". It's "flawed" to the point that the Indians who were supposed to participate in its development and even develop a version from it, abandoned it and left the program. Among the reasons mentioned by the Indians was that the Su-57 didn't met the Stealth requirements.


xt0xickillax wrote:The aircraft is supposed to be a silver bullet force that outflies anything in the air. It’s kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed, has distributed sensors and IRST and AESA like F-35, and even has DIRCM that can neutralize heat seeking missiles.


"Silver bullet"?? More like a Tin bullet... :roll:

"kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed"?? :lmao:
The only thing that the Su-57 should surpass the F-35 kinematically is in Top Speed, period. In the rest such as agility and acceleration the F-35 should the beat the Su-57, hands down.
The F-22 should beat the Su-57 in everything.

Sensor and avionics wise the F-35 is so superior to the Su-57 to the point of trying to compare both will make you look silly.

That's the harsh reality of your "Silver" (or should I say, Tin?) "bullet".


xt0xickillax wrote:Those saying it’s not being bought in large numbers, that’s the point because it’s meant to be an elite force meant to defeat the toughest opponents, while most missions can be done by Su-35 or Su-30SM or the upcoming Checkmate. It’s the hi in the hi-lo combo.


What?? :shock:
You're really mentioning that most missions can be done by Su-35 or Su-30SM?? The same aircraft that have been shot down like flies over Ukraine to the point that they are now only used over Russian controlled territory only? :roll:
Have you been living under a rock lately? I gather that the name of that rock is called "Russia", eh?


xt0xickillax wrote:Those saying it’s not stealthy enough, you think you can tell just by eyeball? Or you know more than Sukhoi?


Actually those who were first ones saying that it (Su-57) "isn't stealthy enough" were precisely Russian sources, including if I'm not mistaken sources within Sukhoi. These same sources claimed that the Su-57 RCS is around 0.5 square meters. Now compare this to (USAF) sources mentioning that the F-35 and F-22 RCS is lower than 0.001 square meters and anyone with more than a single brain cell can easily reach the conclusion that the Su-57 is "not stealthy enough", specially compared to the F-35 and F-22.


xt0xickillax wrote:Su-57 doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like F-35 has but that’s not the point and it’s not supposed to be a cheap affordable 5th generation aircraft like F-35, that’s what Checkmate is for.


The Su-57 doesn't have any meaningful advantage over the F-35 being it numbers, kinematics, stealth, sensors, you name it!
And this is the second time you mentioned Checkmate - the aircraft that currently only exist in a single wooden mock form and there's no flying prototype and looking at the current state of Russia will probably never see the light of day.
When I see the Checkmate entering is service then we'll talk. For now Checkmate is only a pipe dream!


xt0xickillax wrote:Su-57 is designed for ultimate air superiority to counter F-22 and fits well with Russian design philosophy having the advantage in key characteristics or not inferior in any substantial way. It’s only beginning in terms of its life and how upgrades it will be, just like the original Su-27.


Yeah, yeah and we all know how superior the Su-27 and its upgraded versions (Su-30, Su-35) are superior to upgraded western aircraft like the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, etc... :doh:


xt0xickillax wrote:And don’t get me started on piece of crap J-20.

In fact, the Su-57 is a far better aircraft than the J-20, which is a MiG knockoff and blended with components the Chinese copied from F-22 and F-35. For all the puff pieces about how good the J-20 is, it hasn’t done anything impressive in a single air show and all the claims are just from Chinese brochure.


The only good thing about what you mentioned above is watching Russians "pissing" at the Chinese.
The rest is so wrong at all levels that I don't even know where to start. The J-20 is inferior to the F-35 and F-22, this I have no doubt about. But I also don't have any doubts that the J-20 is superior to the Su-57...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 18:59

xt0xickillax wrote:Those saying it’s not stealthy enough, you think you can tell just by eyeball? Or you know more than Sukhoi? Not even LM has claimed Su-57 isn’t stealthy.

Not with simple eye ball but you can analyze Su-57 shape in an unbiased way using dedicated radar scattering simulation software.
Overall, Su-57 RCS will be much bigger than both F-35 and J-20 unless Russia come up with some type of RAM which is 10-100 times better than the Western counterpart.
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Average RCS F-35 vs Su-57 vs J-20.PNG
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 19:11

Oh, I just wanted to add one more thing:
Su-57 is a misunderstood aircraft


Oh, poor thing...

:roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 19:20

ricnunes wrote:"kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed"?? :lmao:
The only thing that the Su-57 should surpass the F-35 kinematically is in Top Speed, period. In the rest such as agility and acceleration the F-35 should the beat the Su-57, hands down.

IHMO, there is little doubt that F-35 is superior to Su-57 in BVR combat because F-35 has much lower RCS and their radar aperture are of similar size
However, I don't think F-35 can beat Su-57 in supersonic acceleration, and post stall agility.
Overall, Su-57 is a fighter with better fineness ratio, higher wing swept angle and variable inlet, all of that should point to much better supersonic acceleration. Logically Su-57 should be on F-15EX /Eurofighter level when it come to supersonic acceleration
For post stall agility, well, su-57 got two 3Dthrust vector engine. So it kinda obvious that it will perform those post stall maneuver better than something without.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 19:35

This is laced with so much Sukhoi fanboyism it's pathetic.

xt0xickillax wrote:Recently there’s so much writing about how much the Su-57 is flawed, and how it’s not a true 5th generation fighter. To be this is grossly misunderstanding what Su-57 is. The aircraft is supposed to be a silver bullet force that outflies anything in the air. It’s kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed, has distributed sensors and IRST and AESA like F-35, and even has DIRCM that can neutralize heat seeking missiles. Those saying it’s not being bought in large numbers, that’s the point because it’s meant to be an elite force meant to defeat the toughest opponents, while most missions can be done by Su-35 or Su-30SM or the upcoming Checkmate. It’s the hi in the hi-lo combo.


This seems like copium to justify why Russia is having trouble with Su-57 production with retroactive excuses. A "silver bullet" hi of the hi-lo combination still needs enough airframes so that you can have meaningful numbers that are available at any time. Because a portion of your fleet will be doing maintenance, another portion will be dedicated to training and development, another portion will be rearming and on stand by, so only a third or so of your total fleet is airborne at any time. Even 187 F-22s is considered not enough, USAF always wanted 381 even with 1,763 F-35s, and now you think 78 is adequate? What a joke...

xt0xickillax wrote:Those saying it’s not stealthy enough, you think you can tell just by eyeball? Or you know more than Sukhoi? Not even LM has claimed Su-57 isn’t stealthy. Even then, it has DIRCM and L402 ECM that can wreak havoc with AAMs, and anything that gets in a gunfight with Su-57 is dead meat. Su-57 takes a balanced approach to survivability with good enough stealth, tons of countermeasures, and the highest maneuverability to date and the best speed of all 5th generation fighters, as the large oversized intakes and variable geometry intake ramps show.


This is more fanboying for Sukhoi and assuming they can't possibly do any wrong. If that's the case, why didn't the aircraft make the 2016 in service date like they promised? EW system isn't even unique to Su-57, ever heard of MALD-J, or the EW systems in the F-35 and F-22 itself?

For all your raving about Su-57 maneuverability and speed, it's the same thrust vectoring seen since Su-30MKI, and the only real advantage is in post-stall and especially in yaw. And for speed, the Su-57 is limited to Mach 2 because of materials, variable geometry or not, and being oversized says nothing about max speed and actually increases spillage drag. Fantastical claims about T-50/Su-57 speed has not been backed by evidence.

xt0xickillax wrote:Su-57 doesn’t have the advantage of numbers like F-35 has but that’s not the point and it’s not supposed to be a cheap affordable 5th generation aircraft like F-35, that’s what Checkmate is for.


Checkmate is currently vaporware, there's a mockup and that's it. It hasn't even flown yet, so maybe temper your bold claims?

xt0xickillax wrote:Su-57 is designed for ultimate air superiority to counter F-22 and fits well with Russian design philosophy having the advantage in key characteristics or not inferior in any substantial way. It’s only beginning in terms of its life and how upgrades it will be, just like the original Su-27. And don’t get me started on piece of crap J-20.


Only the most fervent and rabid of Sukhoi fanboys would think this is a "design philosophy". In fact Su-57 from the beginning was supposed to be cheaper and more affordable than the MiG 1.44, and it's unlikely Russians even know all of F-22 and F-35 characteristics, so how can they say the Su-57 have "advantage in key characteristics"? Of course they'll claim that when marketing their aircraft, but it's easy to just claim things to promote their aircraft.

xt0xickillax wrote:In fact, the Su-57 is a far better aircraft than the J-20, which is a MiG knockoff and blended with components the Chinese copied from F-22 and F-35. For all the puff pieces about how good the J-20 is, it hasn’t done anything impressive in a single air show and all the claims are just from Chinese brochure.


So on the one hand you decry Chinese claims while on the other hand drinking up Russian propaganda. The J-20 is actually in service in meaningful numbers, which is much more than what can be said about Su-57. These masturbatory claims about Su-57 is just pathetic.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 20:12

garrya wrote:However, I don't think F-35 can beat Su-57 in supersonic acceleration, and post stall agility.
Overall, Su-57 is a fighter with better fineness ratio, higher wing swept angle and variable inlet, all of that should point to much better supersonic acceleration. Logically Su-57 should be on F-15EX /Eurofighter level when it come to supersonic acceleration


I don't doubt and I could even agree with you that the Su-57 might have better supersonic acceleration than the F-35 (but even this, is a big question mark!). However I was talking about subsonic acceleration which is where most of the fight/combat regarding fighter aircraft will happen. And in terms of subsonic acceleration the F-35 should have no problems in beating the Su-57. Heck, it seems that the F-35 may beat the F-22 also in terms of subsonic acceleration.

garrya wrote:For post stall agility, well, su-57 got two 3Dthrust vector engine. So it kinda obvious that it will perform those post stall maneuver better than something without.

Regarding post stall agility, I have my reservations that the Su-57 can beat the F-35 because I've watched some variants of the Su-30 and Su-35 equipped with 3D TVC performing post stall maneuvers and I wasn't overly impressed compared to when I watched the F-35 performing the same/similar post stall maneuvers.
Moreover, post stall maneuvering is something that a pilot will never want to do in real combat because this will make him/her a sitting duck!
What you'll want in terms of high AoA agility in real combat is quick nose pointing and superior acceleration after losing energy/speed because of the same nose pointing maneuvers and here and again, the F-35 should be superior (to the Su-57).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 20:54

I'm curious about the DIRCM claim.

Do we have DIRCM's systems that will fit into a fighter, I know the 130 fleet has them, but that's the extent of my knowledge.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 21:14

daswp wrote:I'm curious about the DIRCM claim.

Do we have DIRCM's systems that will fit into a fighter, I know the 130 fleet has them, but that's the extent of my knowledge.


DIRCM's are also fitted in some military helicopters. If I'm not mistaken the Canadian Chinook helicopters (CH-147F) also have them. But like yourself, I never saw them fitted in fighter aircraft.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 22:52

ricnunes wrote:Of course the Su-57 is "flawed". It's "flawed" to the point that the Indians who were supposed to participate in its development and even develop a version from it, abandoned it and left the program. Among the reasons mentioned by the Indians was that the Su-57 didn't met the Stealth requirements.


To be clear Indians were talking about Su-57 v1.0 which Russians tried to sell them. That is version which don't have LOAN nozzles and probable heat signature of engine isn't reduced either.

ricnunes wrote:"Silver bullet"?? More like a Tin bullet... :roll:

"kinematically king with unsurpassed maneuverability and speed"?? :lmao:
The only thing that the Su-57 should surpass the F-35 kinematically is in Top Speed, period. In the rest such as agility and acceleration the F-35 should the beat the Su-57, hands down.
The F-22 should beat the Su-57 in everything.


Any reason why F-35 accelerate better then Su-57? I don't see any. Reason why F-35 acceleration is good is because F-22 don't accelerate that well (or as you would expect from such beasts of engines) in subsonic regime. But that is because F-22 have engines with bypass ratio of 0.3:1, while F-35 have engine with bypass ratio of close to 0.6, but Su-57 also have engines with bypass ratio of 0.6:1, so I really don't see reason why F-35 would accelerate better then Su-57.

Maybe T/W ratio is better? Well no. By wikipedia Su-57 with 100% fuel have 1:1 T/W ratio, F-35 is 0.87:1


ricnunes wrote:Actually those who were first ones saying that it (Su-57) "isn't stealthy enough" were precisely Russian sources, including if I'm not mistaken sources within Sukhoi. These same sources claimed that the Su-57 RCS is around 0.5 square meters. Now compare this to (USAF) sources mentioning that the F-35 and F-22 RCS is lower than 0.001 square meters and anyone with more than a single brain cell can easily reach the conclusion that the Su-57 is "not stealthy enough", specially compared to the F-35 and F-22.


Because 0.5m2 and 0.0001m2 aren't same RCS method.

Russians always use mean RCS method, were highest value of RCS have huge impact. By Russian models for F-35 is 0.1m2 while F-22 is 0.3m2 so it is better then Su-57 but difference isn't huge as 0.5m2 (1m2 is mean rcs of Su57 v1.0) vs 0.001m2

In past when folks though Su-57 will be same as prototypes we saw, 0.5m2 as lowest RCS look logical because fit and finish wasn't great and there wasn't any RAM at all. But build one Su-57 as different story, fit and finish is very good and they do have thick RAM and also thick composite skin which have RAM in structure.

Su-57 problem isn't RCS nor agility problem is numbers. Even if Su-57 is much more advanced we thought they still plan to have around 80 of them at end of this decade. Russia can't really say it is some kind of world super power if US will have around 1000 F-35 if not more then and China will have also lot more J-20 and probable start making something new.

Russians if are smart would do same as US did, small number of high performance two engined 5gen fighter with nice number of multirole single engine 5gen fighter but this mean they need to push Su-75 even more then Su-57.

Su-75 do have advantages over everything they buy now BUT it is still just mockup. So invest in development, they do have advantage of not needing to develop engine, sensors and even lot of airframe is taken from Su-57 but still tests would require time. Reduce buying of ordinary Flankers until Su-75 is ready, focus on getting S70 ucav instead, it is close to enter in service.
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