SU-75 Checkmate

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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milosh

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 07:46

tphuang wrote:Let's be real here. This thing won't be $30 million a pop. Unless it has a large production run, it will probably be in the $100 million per aircraft range. Keep in mind that China paid $2 billion for 24 su-35. Saying that it cost $25 million per unit is just not true.


SU35 flyaway price is around 30 million dollars. Source is price for lots which RuAF got. SU35 for China was price of whole package not just plane. I would expect spare engines, radars and other things are included in deal.

SU75 price which is stated by UAC representive is naked plane and probable without advanced RAM and sensors, for example I doubt EOTS sensor will be part of 30 million price.

Of course this price need to be seen, but for now that is goal price.

I did explain why flyaway price of 30mil isnt unrealistic if we see flyaway price for SU35 which is same.

Also we have example of F15X and F35A. Btw F35A doesnt have same engine as F!5X but lot more expensier while SU75 and SU35 share engine. So just in engine SU75 is cheaper for one engine.

Also it is lightweight airframe which is 8G while SU35 is heavy 9G airframe, so I would expect SU75 use lot more Al and lot less Ti which impact price.

But we need to wait and see price of RuAF of SU75 to get real flyaway price of plane.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 11:43

I think comparing costs between Russian and Western aircraft is almost impossible as it really depends on what costs are included and how they are calculated. Even comparing costs of US aircraft seem to be very difficult to do correctly as programs are slightly different. Like do the cost include engines, avionics systems, sensors etc? Of course do you take into account R&D, production line set up and tooling costs, program management costs, testing etc. Then to actually operate the aircraft, you need training, support and maintenance capabilities etc.

I think only sensible way to compare prices is comparing total contract prices and even these can vary a lot as it depends on what exactly is included. Some contracts don't include support and maintenance which makes huge difference if other contract includes say 10 years of support.
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tphuang

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 15:08

milosh wrote:
tphuang wrote:Let's be real here. This thing won't be $30 million a pop. Unless it has a large production run, it will probably be in the $100 million per aircraft range. Keep in mind that China paid $2 billion for 24 su-35. Saying that it cost $25 million per unit is just not true.


SU35 flyaway price is around 30 million dollars. Source is price for lots which RuAF got. SU35 for China was price of whole package not just plane. I would expect spare engines, radars and other things are included in deal.

SU75 price which is stated by UAC representive is naked plane and probable without advanced RAM and sensors, for example I doubt EOTS sensor will be part of 30 million price.

Of course this price need to be seen, but for now that is goal price.

I did explain why flyaway price of 30mil isnt unrealistic if we see flyaway price for SU35 which is same.

Also we have example of F15X and F35A. Btw F35A doesnt have same engine as F!5X but lot more expensier while SU75 and SU35 share engine. So just in engine SU75 is cheaper for one engine.

Also it is lightweight airframe which is 8G while SU35 is heavy 9G airframe, so I would expect SU75 use lot more Al and lot less Ti which impact price.

But we need to wait and see price of RuAF of SU75 to get real flyaway price of plane.


And you think I'm going to trust what UAC says? I trust what other countries actually paid Russia for these planes. Other numbers are just marketing.

Keep in mind that China has full support system and maintenance team ready for flankers. It really doesn't need the extra stuff that add to the cost. Yet they still paid over $80 million per aircraft. Flankers hasn't been cheap for a long time.

For a new aircraft without a production run, it's going to take a long time to get production cost down. Until you can get a large order, you cannot put in the investment needed to lower the part costs and to lower the final assembly costs.

This is why each new Su-57 costs so much money right now.
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nutshell

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 16:05

Mercedes W12 is estimated to cost (non development costs, just the parts and the assembling), shy of 30M dollars.
I dont think the SU57 is just as expensive as an f1 car.
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milosh

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 18:40

tphuang wrote:And you think I'm going to trust what UAC says? I trust what other countries actually paid Russia for these planes. Other numbers are just marketing.

Keep in mind that China has full support system and maintenance team ready for flankers. It really doesn't need the extra stuff that add to the cost. Yet they still paid over $80 million per aircraft. Flankers hasn't been cheap for a long time.

For a new aircraft without a production run, it's going to take a long time to get production cost down. Until you can get a large order, you cannot put in the investment needed to lower the part costs and to lower the final assembly costs.

This is why each new Su-57 costs so much money right now.


China don't have 117s nor sensors and avionics inside Su35. So they did buy not just planes but lot of other stuff. For example Egypt paid similar price per plane as China did even though they don't operate Flankers so Egypt didn't bought just planes either. I don't get why you are trying to present 85mil price as fly away price for Su35? I mean it would cost more then F15X if that is just flyaway price.

@nutshell

It is like you say for one F35A you get two and half F1 cars F35A can't be that "cheap". Apples to oranges.
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tphuang

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 18:56

milosh wrote:
tphuang wrote:And you think I'm going to trust what UAC says? I trust what other countries actually paid Russia for these planes. Other numbers are just marketing.

Keep in mind that China has full support system and maintenance team ready for flankers. It really doesn't need the extra stuff that add to the cost. Yet they still paid over $80 million per aircraft. Flankers hasn't been cheap for a long time.

For a new aircraft without a production run, it's going to take a long time to get production cost down. Until you can get a large order, you cannot put in the investment needed to lower the part costs and to lower the final assembly costs.

This is why each new Su-57 costs so much money right now.


China don't have 117s nor sensors and avionics inside Su35. So they did buy not just planes but lot of other stuff. For example Egypt paid similar price per plane as China did even though they don't operate Flankers so Egypt didn't bought just planes either. I don't get why you are trying to present 85mil price as fly away price for Su35? I mean it would cost more then F15X if that is just flyaway price.

@nutshell

It is like you say for one F35A you get two and half F1 cars F35A can't be that "cheap". Apples to oranges.


what's the point of quoting a price without engine, radar and avionics? How is that still a fighter jet?
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milosh

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 20:31

tphuang wrote:
milosh wrote:
tphuang wrote:And you think I'm going to trust what UAC says? I trust what other countries actually paid Russia for these planes. Other numbers are just marketing.

Keep in mind that China has full support system and maintenance team ready for flankers. It really doesn't need the extra stuff that add to the cost. Yet they still paid over $80 million per aircraft. Flankers hasn't been cheap for a long time.

For a new aircraft without a production run, it's going to take a long time to get production cost down. Until you can get a large order, you cannot put in the investment needed to lower the part costs and to lower the final assembly costs.

This is why each new Su-57 costs so much money right now.


China don't have 117s nor sensors and avionics inside Su35. So they did buy not just planes but lot of other stuff. For example Egypt paid similar price per plane as China did even though they don't operate Flankers so Egypt didn't bought just planes either. I don't get why you are trying to present 85mil price as fly away price for Su35? I mean it would cost more then F15X if that is just flyaway price.

@nutshell

It is like you say for one F35A you get two and half F1 cars F35A can't be that "cheap". Apples to oranges.


what's the point of quoting a price without engine, radar and avionics? How is that still a fighter jet?


???

I didn't.
What I would wrote is they buy not just fighters but also logistics because Chinese do not have SU35. SU30K logistics they have don't mean much. SU35 have different engine radar avionics then SU30K.

That is why I mentioned they for sure get lot more then just fighters. It is logical they get spare parts test equipment and even spare engines and radars. So when we say China or Egypt paid 85mil for SU35 it isn't flyaway price. Flyaway price is around 30mil that is what RuAF pay and OT is public information. Of course flyaway price for export is higher but nothing like 85mil.
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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 21:53

milosh wrote:
tphuang wrote:And you think I'm going to trust what UAC says? I trust what other countries actually paid Russia for these planes. Other numbers are just marketing.

Keep in mind that China has full support system and maintenance team ready for flankers. It really doesn't need the extra stuff that add to the cost. Yet they still paid over $80 million per aircraft. Flankers hasn't been cheap for a long time.

For a new aircraft without a production run, it's going to take a long time to get production cost down. Until you can get a large order, you cannot put in the investment needed to lower the part costs and to lower the final assembly costs.

This is why each new Su-57 costs so much money right now.


China don't have 117s nor sensors and avionics inside Su35. So they did buy not just planes but lot of other stuff. For example Egypt paid similar price per plane as China did even though they don't operate Flankers so Egypt didn't bought just planes either. I don't get why you are trying to present 85mil price as fly away price for Su35? I mean it would cost more then F15X if that is just flyaway price.

@nutshell

It is like you say for one F35A you get two and half F1 cars F35A can't be that "cheap". Apples to oranges.



No, in that case we'd talk about a "strawman argument", besides, over a 100M $ for a mass produced object is far cheap.
You can buy 3/4 of Serbia, with 100M ffs.
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milosh

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Unread post19 Nov 2021, 11:27

Whatever.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post07 Jan 2022, 04:43

Is Russia’s Su-75 ‘Checkmate’ Aircraft a Case of Vapor Marketing? 05 Jan 2022 John V. Parachini & Peter A. Wilson
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2022/0 ... ng/360390/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post10 Jan 2022, 19:18

Will the Russian Checkmate jet beat the F-35? | Actionable Intelligence [VIDEO]
10 Jan 2022 defnews

"Russia showed off its SU-75 Checkmate jet fighter that in Dubai recently in hopes of getting Middle East Business, but will it win contracts over the F-35?"

https://www.defensenews.com/video/2022/ ... elligence/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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milosh

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Unread post10 Jan 2022, 23:46

I don't think Russians did even mentioned F35 as target. Thry talk about jf17 and f16 cheapest single engine fighter on market.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 00:39

I have my doubts the Su-75 Checkmate will ever see the light of day. Nonetheless, I don't see the Gulf States as a market for the type. Because they can afford the much more capable F-35 and/or the KF-21.

So, why would they even consider the Checkmate???


Honestly, I think South America or poorer countries in the Russian orbit as more likely customers for the Checkmate. Even then it would have to compete with the Chinese with the former countries!
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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 03:29

Checkmate will obviously be optimized for altitude, cruise speed, and standoff weapons. The question is Typhoon level performance or Gripen? I cannot imagine Russian radar technology magically solves the problems with Russian technology being overly focused on narrow, long range beams. Without an improvement in scan rates they have a huge hurdle to make up with Western airframes. And they question still remains, what AAM?
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Unread post11 Jan 2022, 06:07

madrat wrote:Checkmate will obviously be optimized for altitude, cruise speed, and standoff weapons. The question is Typhoon level performance or Gripen? I cannot imagine Russian radar technology magically solves the problems with Russian technology being overly focused on narrow, long range beams. Without an improvement in scan rates they have a huge hurdle to make up with Western airframes. And they question still remains, what AAM?



The Checkmate is just so-much fiction.

If, it was developed it would just be a cheap modern-day semi-stealthy (LO) Mig-21. It wouldn't be a direct competitor to the F-35 and maybe not even to the KF-21....


"IMHO" 8)
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