SU-75 Checkmate

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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basher54321

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 23:02

Promo video

When Obi Wan logged onto Twitter: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"
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element1loop

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Unread post16 Nov 2021, 10:39

Couple of years ago they were calling the F-35 all sorts of rubbish ... now it looks like they want to buy it ... but will have to settle for an inferior copy instead. I'm excited they finally decided to build a 5th-gen though.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Nov 2021, 13:08

basher54321 wrote:Promo video




Funny that they (Russians) use the infrared/FLIR imagery of the AH-64 Apache (TADS) in their 'promo video' - watch at around minute 0:55.
Don't they (Russians) have their own infrared/FLIR sensors?? :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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mixelflick

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Unread post16 Nov 2021, 17:40

A few thoughts...

First, it's a lot bigger than I originally thought. The side by side/overhead view next to the SU-57 was striking, looks almost as big in some respects. I guess the tip off should have been the proposed range. This isn't a light fighter, its more of a mid-heavyweight.

Related, getting the kind of performance specs they're claiming from a single engine... not gonna be easy! Doubtful even if they get the Ide 30 working most foreign govt's can afford it. Therefore, I'd imagine most export versions will have lower performance.

Third - price. $30 million, really? Yes I know all about using existing/SU-57 materials and systems but $30 mil? Unlikely and somewhat irresponsible to claim at this point. It really seems to be setting unrealistic expectations, and foreign buyers aren't going to be happy when the price tag comes in at double that or more.

Fourth - the UAE. After being cleared for up to 50 F-35's, why would they need this? More importantly, why would they fund development of it? It's doubtful other countries will come to a different conclusion, whether they have access to the F-35 or not. I'd rather be flying a fleet of SU-30SM type birds, vs. lower performance "sort of" stealth fighters. At the end of the day, I'm not convinced the SU-75's stealth is going to be... all that stealthy.

A long way to go, and I'll reserve judgment until (or if) they get something finalized for sale. Russia itself will have to buy many of these, if nothing else to show other countries its value. It didn't happen with the Mig-35, doubt it'll happen here. Unless the SU-57 completely implodes, which of course is a distinct possibility.

Maybe that's what it really is, a plan B?
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commisar

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Unread post16 Nov 2021, 21:29

mixelflick wrote:A few thoughts...

First, it's a lot bigger than I originally thought. The side by side/overhead view next to the SU-57 was striking, looks almost as big in some respects. I guess the tip off should have been the proposed range. This isn't a light fighter, its more of a mid-heavyweight.

Related, getting the kind of performance specs they're claiming from a single engine... not gonna be easy! Doubtful even if they get the Ide 30 working most foreign govt's can afford it. Therefore, I'd imagine most export versions will have lower performance.

Third - price. $30 million, really? Yes I know all about using existing/SU-57 materials and systems but $30 mil? Unlikely and somewhat irresponsible to claim at this point. It really seems to be setting unrealistic expectations, and foreign buyers aren't going to be happy when the price tag comes in at double that or more.

Fourth - the UAE. After being cleared for up to 50 F-35's, why would they need this? More importantly, why would they fund development of it? It's doubtful other countries will come to a different conclusion, whether they have access to the F-35 or not. I'd rather be flying a fleet of SU-30SM type birds, vs. lower performance "sort of" stealth fighters. At the end of the day, I'm not convinced the SU-75's stealth is going to be... all that stealthy.

A long way to go, and I'll reserve judgment until (or if) they get something finalized for sale. Russia itself will have to buy many of these, if nothing else to show other countries its value. It didn't happen with the Mig-35, doubt it'll happen here. Unless the SU-57 completely implodes, which of course is a distinct possibility.

Maybe that's what it really is, a plan B?



It's a private project from Sukhoi to get more cash from Russian jet customers. Currently the best they can export is the Su-35/30/34. Essentially 4th gen jets.... No AESA, not the best EW/ECM, PGM integration isn't amazing except for the Su-34, and they aren't exactly cheap, think $50+ million a jet. Oh and barely any LO updates.

So the Su-75 is the SUPER DUPER stealth jet they can actually sell this decade...... Unlike the Su-57 which probably won't be entering the inventory of a non Russian air force until 2030 or so.

The Su-57 is a national priority for Russia an I've read a dual seat variant will be flying in 2-3 years. It's their Su-27 replacement.
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commisar

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Unread post16 Nov 2021, 21:36

milosh wrote:
not_kent wrote:Never knew that wooden models can compete with actual planes. :bang:
No plans for a built in gun, can it not dogfight? Nothing can beat the Mark I eyeball and the Ma deuce 50 cal machine gun.


Rostec is anticipating that Argentina, India and Vietnam will become the primary export destinations for the aircraft, with the African market also showing interest.

Production is forecast to be 300 planes over 15 years.

Did not realize that Vietnam was looking to buy the F-35, 300 planes over 15 years!


It can have gun in one side bay but then it can carry only four AAM. Also they are offering two gun option which would be replacment for Su-25. Su-34 with more armor and stronger gun which was proposed is way to big and not nice for flying at lower altitude as Su-25 is, also it is lot more expensive to be build and to operated compared to Su-25 and Su-75.

I think they are targeting primary domestic market becuase with 30million price it make quite interesting competitor to Su-35 and it kills MiG-35.

Of course 30million is barebone variant so no EOTS like sensor, 14.5tons engine and probable some low tech RAM but still RCS is way lower then Su-35 and even MiG-35.



Ohh the Mig-35 is essentially dead in the water. The Mig-29K is the best version of the Mig-29 to ever enter service anywhere. The Su-27 series is only a bit more than a Mig-29 but has a better radar, better range, more upgrade potential, and better performance.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 01:09

I have my doubts they're actually building a "prototype". Until they find a partner for the program....
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 06:01

Russia doesn’t seem sure the Su-75 Checkmate will be stealth

Alex Hollings | November 14, 2021

Earlier this year, Russia unveiled their forthcoming “stealth fighter,” the single-engine Su-75 Checkmate, with bold claims about its expected performance and capabilities. Now, as the fighter is being displayed on foreign soil for the first time at this week’s Dubai Air Show, formal statements from its manufacturer have called its stealth credentials into question.

As we discussed at the time, Russia has a long and illustrious history of exaggeration when it comes to unveiling new defense technologies, from the Uran-9 infantry robot that garnered global headlines despite secretly not working at all, to the Checkmate’s older sibling, the Su-57, which is considered the least stealth of its fighter generation and currently exists only in token numbers. Even successful designs like the T-14 Armata main battle tank are smothered under a lack of funding, with Russia unable to produce or field them in any reasonable numbers.

And while the Su-75 has yet to even manifest in a flyable way, the firm responsible for developing the aircraft has carefully tip-toed around the topic of stealth throughout multiple stories published by Russia’s state-owned news outlets in recent months. Even the language used by these outlets is more reserved than you’ll often find in the international media. As one glaring example, you’ll find the Su-75 Checkmate referred to as a stealth fighter all throughout American media… but you won’t find Rostec (the firm developing the aircraft) use that term.

However, Russian media does refer to the Checkmate as a 5th generation fighter from time to time.

Rostec says keeping the Su-75 Checkmate outside the range of enemy air defenses will “save the pilot’s life.”

After scrubbing through dozens of articles Tass has published about the Su-75 Checkmate, and every press release on the Rostec website about it, you won’t find a single example of it being described as a stealth fighter at all. The only time phrases like “5th generation” appear, they’re either floated by the article’s author or are in reference to the F-35 Rostec has tried to position its Checkmate as competition for… and even then, the statement came with some qualifying “previous generation” language.


“Among single-engine fifth-generation and previous-generation aircraft, only the F-35 can boast comparable characteristics as the Checkmate’s main rival. However, our plane is more cost efficient compared to it,” Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov told Tass this week.


The most damning statement about the Su-75 Checkmate’s stealth came from Rostec this week as well. In a piece published by Tass today (Nov. 12), a Rostec spokesperson told the outelt in no uncertain terms that the Checkmate will need to operate outside enemy air defenses, rather than within them.

“Importantly, the aircraft is capable of accomplishing any tasks outside the area of the operation of air defense weapons, thus saving the pilot’s life,” the statement says.

Literally saying that remaining outside enemy air defenses will “save the pilot’s life” doesn’t seem to be a strong vote of confidence for the Su-75’s stealth.



In September, Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov attended an Oil and Gas Forum event where the press had the opportunity to ask him questions about the Checkmate and Russia’s plans to purchase the new fighter. When the line of questioning reached the timeline people could expect to see the aircraft enter production, Borisov made it clear that production was predicated on finding foreign buyers… and further, he too avoided calling it a stealth or even a 5th generation fighter.

“As far as I remember, flight tests will start in 2023, the serial production in case of demand—hopefully, there will be demand because this plane has a number of features of a fifth-generation jet … will start in 2025-2026, I think this is a realistic time frame,” Borisov said.


Of course, there are frequent mentions of the Checkmate leveraging stealth technology in Russian media, but those aren’t at all uncommon in discussions about 4th generation fighters that no one would consider stealth.

Here’s what Russian state media is saying about the Su-75 Checkmate’s stealth:

“The new single-engine fighter is based on stealth technology and is outfitted with an inboard compartment for airborne air-to-air and air-to-surface armaments.”
“Foreign capital to be attracted to Checkmate fighter creation, says Rostec CEO” via Tass on Nov. 12, 2021

“Checkmate boasts stealth features and is equipped with an intra-fuselage compartment for air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles (a payload of over seven tonnes).”
“Defense Ministry may consider purchase of Checkmate fighter — deputy prime minister” via Tass on Sep. 16, 2021


etc.etc. etc.

https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/russia-doe ... e-stealth/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 07:09

The biggest hurdle for the Checkmate might well center on its lack of funding from the Russian state and no orders from the VKS. The program could create some economies of scale in that it would be powered with one of the same two izdeliye 30 engines now undergoing testing for the Su-57 program and feature a derivative of the same N036 AESA radar.

However, in the past, the VKS has shown little enthusiasm for smaller, single-engine platforms and most Russian analysts say that has not changed much in the past few years.

“Without Checkmate being a program of record with the VKS it may be a hard sell for any export customer,” said one long-time Russian aerospace industry specialist. “In the end, however, they may have to accept this program for the simple reason that the Su-57 is probably not affordable in the numbers required to replace the current fleets of previous-generation fighters.”



https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... er-designs
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milosh

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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 09:46

It is confirmed VVS will order it. Which is logical MiG35 cost more and is lot less capable and it isnt compatible with Flankers so logistics costs will only rise in future.

Su75 cost break down as I see it
Su35 engine (it doesn't have Type30) 5mil$
Electronics 5mil$
Airframe 5mil$
and some additional costs lets say 5mil$
So 20mil$

This is of course fly away price or just plane cost.

I expect that is price for VVS while export price is already mentioned 30mil. Btw UAC already mentioned thier primary competitor will be JF17 Block3 and second hand F16 so they need to meet 30mil$ so to have similar price but stealth and kinematics advantage to counter Chinese money leverage for JF17 and US political leverage for second hand F16.

Btw Su35 price is 25mil $ so 20mil for fighter which smaller and have only one engine isnt unrealistic at all.

It is analog to F15X and F35A
Last edited by milosh on 17 Nov 2021, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 10:00

milosh wrote:It is confirmed VVS will order it. Which is logical MiG35 cost more and is lot less capable and it isnt compatible with Flankers so logistics costs will only rise in future.

Su75 cost break down
Su35 engine (it doesn't have Type30) 5mil$
Electronics 5mil$
Airframe 5mil$
and some additional costs lets say 5mil$
So 20mil$

This is of course fly away price or just plane cost.

I expect that is price for VVS while export price is already mentioned 30mil. Btw UAC already mentioned thier primary competitor will be JF17 Block3 and second hand F16 so they need to meet 30mil$ so to have similar price but stealth and kinematics advantage to counter Chinese money leverage for JF17 and US political leverage for second hand F16.

Btw Su35 price is 25mil $ so 20mil for fighter which smaller and have only one engine isnt unrealistic at all.

It is analog to F15X and F35A



You have a source to support that???
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milosh

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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 10:44

Corsair1963 wrote:You have a source to support that???


Source for what it is still early but as i point out why go with MiG35 when they could get SU75. Estimated price is done based on SU35 price which have two same engines and much bigger airframe. SU35 cost 25mil which is official price of later lots then 20mil for su75 isnt unreal at all! And if you still think it is impossible because it is stealth you have F15X and F35A example.
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Unread post17 Nov 2021, 20:38

Let's be real here. This thing won't be $30 million a pop. Unless it has a large production run, it will probably be in the $100 million per aircraft range. Keep in mind that China paid $2 billion for 24 su-35. Saying that it cost $25 million per unit is just not true.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 04:43

milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You have a source to support that???


Source for what it is still early but as i point out why go with MiG35 when they could get SU75. Estimated price is done based on SU35 price which have two same engines and much bigger airframe. SU35 cost 25mil which is official price of later lots then 20mil for su75 isnt unreal at all! And if you still think it is impossible because it is stealth you have F15X and F35A example.



So, short answer is no... :|
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Nov 2021, 04:45

tphuang wrote:Let's be real here. This thing won't be $30 million a pop. Unless it has a large production run, it will probably be in the $100 million per aircraft range. Keep in mind that China paid $2 billion for 24 su-35. Saying that it cost $25 million per unit is just not true.



Yes, they likely would need orders in the 500 range. Just to get it down to $60-70 Million per copy.
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