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Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 20:01
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:Nope I didn't mean you want F-35 clone, I was writing about F-35 clone. But time will tell if RuAF go with AL-41 version as fighter then you are totally right that they lost time and money, and I also was wrong.



thank you, I'm often wrong myself. Hard to make predictions especially about the future.

But what if they decide for AL-51 version? How we would look on that :D I mean it is still what you mentioned (lighter smaller weapon bay) but still have big a$$ engine which I was point out. Draw maybe :mrgreen:

AL-41 version could be quite interesting for RuAF as Su-25 replacement.

Two seater could be their option for LIFT no other role I see, but I really don't see point in UCAV at all.


it could be interesting all around. I don't think very much has been finalized, thats my sense. Somewhere out there exists blueprints and plans for a twin seat F-35, I know the guy who worked on them, but they were shelved indefinitely, along with specific EW versions of F-35.

back in the early days customizable radar and such was mentioned for F-35, but I've always been curious as to that idea...

The JSF was also novel in its approach to global industrial policy. The F-16, still the reigning export champ, was designed for U.S. purposes and then sold around the world. For both military and commercial reasons, the JSF was conceived as a "world airplane." The military advantage of this approach is "interoperability": in some future joint effort like the Gulf War or the battle in Kosovo, airplanes from allied nations would have the same parts, the same software, the same repair kits. (The Pentagon is now working out rules for the "tailorability" of the JSF, which will presumably include limited software or less advanced radar systems.)


important note Fallows is not what i would call a good journalist by any stretch, I wouldn't trust him much at all actually, he was a part of the Pierre Sprey crew, but taken with some grains of salt, its an interesting article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ne/302509/

I am not one "triggered" by other ideas, so I can read something and still dismiss it :mrgreen:

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 20:01
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
milosh wrote:
Btw checkmate even with AL-41 is super cruise capable, when J-31 will be able for something like that?

But Cors isn't worse I saw someone asking why would someone buy checkmate when there is F-16V, Gripen and KF-21, I mean do you really kidding us? I understand questing checkmate realization but no you ask why would someone buy STEALTH design which can super cruise and cost at least same as those three?!?

Where are you getting this super cruise capable claim? I haven't seen that from any of the Russian marketing literature. They mentioned it's top speed, but said nothing of it's cruise speed capabilities.


English presentation of checkmate on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNDrTSDmaZY

I now go fast trough presentation and saw they mentioned at third minute flexiable configuration: basic, medium, full.

And now you guess which one is able to super cruise or what each configuration have :?

What is also strange is earlier when checkmate was expected much later official mentioned new fighter will have variable intake and be able to super cruise and fly faster then Mach 2 (reason for variable intake).

Now we see max speed is Mach 1.8 so simple intake. How knows what they are doing, maybe full version will have AL-51 and variable intake. I really don't care much becuase this basic looks interesting in crazy way, I mean 2020s and you make VLO design with AESA radar which can track 6 targets, and it look like you made it take parts for other planes, some folks on web are sure V-stabs are from Su-57 and even part of wing, what else to say then crazy Ivan.

And to add it look like they borrow weapon bay for Su-57 too. It is funny we see Su-57 weapon bay now and on checkmate, for years we could see it open as some super secret :roll:

That's an awful lot of speculation.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 20:12
by XanderCrews
wrightwing wrote:That's an awful lot of speculation.



Thats about all we re going to get for years, save for the occasional possible nugget of truth, company talking points (a different kind of speculation) or a high profile crash.

oh and hopefully cool CGI, models, pics, etc

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 20:16
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:That's an awful lot of speculation.


Yeap, as I see it they did design something cheap with quite good stealth shape, doens't mean it is automaticily super stealth for example if they want low price I doubt they can afford superb composites or RAM or both. Then they decide to marketing it as modular design but they probable didn't done any serious work with medium or full version as they call them compared to base version.

Anyway I do think it could be consider for Su-25 replacement. It have two side bays, gun is option and it fit inside of one of bays so they could fit two guns :mrgreen: and main weapon bay isn't that small as I think it is, so four SDB-ski bombs inside and guns if close CAS is needed.

Higher mach 1 speed is unnecessary nor fighter agility, so they can fit it with some armor.

And it have horizontal tail surfaces but not common ones (it is like MiG 1.44 solution):

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 21:13
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:That's an awful lot of speculation.


Yeap, as I see it they did design something cheap with quite good stealth shape, doens't mean it is automaticily super stealth for example if they want low price I doubt they can afford superb composites or RAM or both. Then they decide to marketing it as modular design but they probable didn't done any serious work with medium or full version as they call them compared to base version.

Anyway I do think it could be consider for Su-25 replacement. It have two side bays, gun is option and it fit inside of one of bays so they could fit two guns :mrgreen: and main weapon bay isn't that small as I think it is, so four SDB-ski bombs inside and guns if close CAS is needed.

Higher mach 1 speed is unnecessary nor fighter agility, so they can fit it with some armor.

And it have horizontal tail surfaces but not common ones (it is like MiG 1.44 solution):


I do agree with the idea, that regardless of its stealth properties, simply having any at all is a huge difference, and they didn't fall into the gen 4.5 trap

I said in another thread and I'll repeat it here, that Generation 4.5 (super hornet, typhoon, Gripen NG, Rafale) had from about 2010-2020 to make as much in roads as they could, and after that Generation 5 has advanced, and the makers of Rafale, SH, and Typhoon are moving and posting pictures and mock ups of Gen 5 or (lets call them) gen 5 "plus" designs.

if F-35 failed, gen 4.5 would get another 10 years or so until Gen 5 could be retried, or gen 6 happened. Instead, we see Korea, Russia, China rolling out stealth designs and the F-35 has not failed. so people betting on the Rafale, SH, Typhoon, Gripen NG looked semi smart in 2010, but look rather silly now and that will become more obvious each year. We are already seeing many shifts, in 2010 it was "well how many Gs can you pull? how fast can you fly?" and its now "what kind of system of systems can you employ? how can you work in integrated networks and with UAVs?" not just "are you stealthy?" but as was predictable "how stealthy are you?" stealth is not a nice to have any more, its entry level now.

put simply: in 2010 it was "how much work can you do?" and in 2021 its "how much can you make other things work for you?"

Generation 5 has won conceptually. This was predictable for anyone following the not jut the F-35, but the system and concept it was designed to create and master. Only Saab is still insisting that "Stealth isn't the future", which is highly predictable as they have no stealth options are looking absolutely dated to upstarts like Korea. I also predict that the second they produce some kind of new, novel stealthy something, stealthy will no longer be "obsolete" it will in fact be "perfected" by them. But that will have to wait until Gripen NG runs its course.

I know Saab will swear until theyre blue in the face that stealth is obsolete, but meanwhile even Russia is producing stealthy single engines now. -- again i'm not commenting on how good or bad checkmate is-- but what I am saying is that even the most "backward" looking airplane that is built LO will look more advanced than the most advanced Gen 4.5 that "doesn't need" stealth for some invented reason.

Saab is seemingly the last aircraft maker in the world insisting the old way is the real way, which is hilarious for a company that claims to produce "smart fighters" and is "secretly" so "well ahead" and "advanced" of larger competitors.

imagine thinking in the year of our lord 2021, that having a Super Hornet engine, a GaN radar like the ones the old busted USMC hornets got first, jammed into the same 1980s design + 1200 kilos that is still in testing and won't be ready for years yet, was some kind of amazing and unique advance that could not be bested, and having the stupidity as Sweetman did to call it a "6th generation" fighter...

Maybe thats who got "checkmated"

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 22:11
by zhangmdev
A less distorted side view. The landing gears look real enough. The rest of the model not so much.

I don't know why the images are mostly taken through lens of very wide field-of-view, which distorts the object beyond recognition.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 22:42
by rowbeartoe
It looks like this Jet still will use a HUD? The F-35 rolled out roughly 15 years ago and one of the revolutionary designs to me is the helmet and no HUD.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 00:06
by element1loop
steve2267 wrote:I do not see Russia willing to risk the ire of the Chinese by building and selling Checkmate to #2. Turkey probably doesn't have the money to fund it. IMO they are foolish to do it, after their Su-57 experience, but I could see India saying, "Look here Russia, this Su-57 is a fools errand, and we are not going to continue wasting rupees on it, but if you, Sukhoi, want to build us an aircraft that does X, Y, Z, we will help fund development and buy Z for this price."


Pretty good points but why can Korea or Turkey build a prospective 5th-gen, and India wouldn't build its own, using a European or North American engine?

India actually has its own ambitious 5th-gen production planning taking shape now, plus a Loyal-Wingman drone to go with it. China invested heavily in aerospace and has major advantage over India due to it, and India must now address it, short, medium and long-term. They may spend money catching up for a long time but they do need to pay-to-play against Chinese aerospace manufacturing. So I see India as increasingly less likely to invest in developing another high-risk Russian 5th-gen, with an unproven engine and avionics.

If anything India is likely to seek ~50 low-risk (technically that is) F-35A, in parallel to this, to cover them and greatly develop and extend their best military's capabilities until they can bring a lower tier domestic '5th-gen' fighter and associated advanced drone into production.

I expect their export economy to go forward a lot over the next 20 years so their funding is unlikely to remain as tight, as foreign investment then exports increase. That would work much better for them against China, and they have decided on the QUAD cooperation strategy which will be much more important to them than making a Russian fighter developer happy.

On balance, I'd say count India out too.

Frankly I think Russia will proceed with a true 5th-gen single development irrespective of what any other country decides.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 01:40
by Corsair1963
India should have partnered with either South Korea or Turkey to develop a 5th Generation Fighter. As they needed a partner for their own program anyways. (i.e. AMCA)


With South Korea (KF-21) being the most obvious choice. Yet, again India missed a great opportunity......... :|

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 02:41
by element1loop
milosh wrote:Anyway I do think it could be consider for Su-25 replacement. It have two side bays, gun is option and it fit inside of one of bays so they could fit two guns :mrgreen: and main weapon bay isn't that small as I think it is, so four SDB-ski bombs inside and guns if close CAS is needed. Higher mach 1 speed is unnecessary nor fighter agility, so they can fit it with some armor. And it have horizontal tail surfaces but not common ones (it is like MiG 1.44 solution):


Not intending any personal disrespect Milosh but that's a nuts suggestion. VLO airframes plus extending radial-distance to sensor and target go together like pea and pod. This is a necessary change in tactics and a focus on survival, as that's what stealth is for, very effective surprise killing of higher-value hard targets, without being killed in return, so not being seen, thus not being shot at, and/or making return fire almost completely ineffective, or not viable, or so expensive to pursue in winning numbers as to be unaffordable and unmanageable. Present a problem too great to solve in adaptive battle.

In other words, get a "disposable drone" to do silly things, though I can't imagine why any force would, given the substitute options and tactics available now in JOINT forces. I'm not even convinced "disposable drones" actually exist, nor ever will. From what I see they're every bit as expensive as manned systems, to do the same things up close once its against a near peer using a drone built for 24/7 automated IFR operation through the entire troposphere altitude range. Else use a manned turboprop for low-end fight with things like APKWS and SDBII for survivable standoff.

But the days of using guns to strafe are done with, when ground and surface forces are optimizing rapidly to detect and kill even small loiter munitions, with speed, ease and reliability, using an increasingly effective multitude of short-range air defense options, including directed-energy from HEL lasers on very light high mobility vehicles (see USMC) or via high-powered AESA panels disrupting electronics. It's not just SAMs and AAA any longer. And in that respect VLO plus maintaining higher radial distances with fast standoff weapons is the way to go. Totally different tactics. This is where an F-35 and Loyal Wingman can change all, as they can call on precision long-range artillery to smash area or precision targets fast, and will survive it.

This is one of the reasons I detest the ludicrous long-term retention of A-10C ,instead of putting all that money in to PrSM artillery and F-35 Bk4 developments, integration and new weapons, which will actually work well in conjunction with new ground system options.

The Russians are already very much developing their forces along those lines and an "F-35-ski" would be used completely differently to any prior attack types they have operated. They will develop a '5th generation' integrated JOINT force with that because that generates winning firepower options, and they have been integrating battlefield fires using small drones for most of the past decade.

So I'd take the DAS/EOTS-ski and implied data-fusion and network comms very seriously from here, if RuAF go for even a low cost 5th-gen all aspect VLO single from here, as even one with an AL-41 can maintain radial distance and low-signature for hours and work with a teamed drone, hold airspace, while destroying ground forces.

This is not about 4th-gen A2A combat considerations, or outmoded attack jet methods. The Russians would be out of their minds to think like that, and I don't believe for a second they will. What they will want is a jet they can fly in NATO airspace almost undetected, and survive there, and be able to use sensors to find and kill NATO long-range artillery, and NATO missile defenses, long-range sensors and C4.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 02:57
by durahawk
rowbeartoe wrote:It looks like this Jet still will use a HUD? The F-35 rolled out roughly 15 years ago and one of the revolutionary designs to me is the helmet and no HUD.


For starters, HUDs are a lot simpler and cheaper. $400k custom fit helmets like those on the F-35 are probably a non-starter for most of the countries they are looking to sell this too. Helmet mounted displays also introduce a lot of small alignment errors that can complicate the targeting of forward firing weapons. Even minor errors can have a significant impact on accuracy. A fixed HUD on the other hand, will generally keep its point of impact after calibration.

A HMDS is not part and parcel for a Fifth Gen by any means. The Raptor also has a fixed HUD afterall.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 03:13
by Corsair1963
durahawk wrote:
rowbeartoe wrote:It looks like this Jet still will use a HUD? The F-35 rolled out roughly 15 years ago and one of the revolutionary designs to me is the helmet and no HUD.


For starters, HUDs are a lot simpler and cheaper. $400k custom fit helmets like those on the F-35 are probably a non-starter for most of the countries they are looking to sell this too. Helmet mounted displays also introduce a lot of small alignment errors that can complicate the targeting of forward firing weapons. Even minor errors can have a significant impact on accuracy. A fixed HUD on the other hand, will generally keep its point of impact after calibration.

A HMDS is not part and parcel for a Fifth Gen by any means. The Raptor also has a fixed HUD afterall.


The F-22 was more than a decade sooner than the F-35. Honestly, anything post F-35 should include a HMD...

That said, it's clear the LTF is a cheap or poor mans Stealth Fighter. Making a number of compromises to keep the cost low....

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 03:43
by element1loop
durahawk wrote: ... HUDs are a lot simpler and cheaper. $400k custom fit helmets like those on the F-35 are probably a non-starter for most of the countries they are looking to sell this too.


Procurement costs of F-35A with an HMD is $10 million cheaper than F-15EX. The bigger problem is Russian helmet display tech.

durahawk wrote: ... Helmet mounted displays also introduce a lot of small alignment errors that can complicate the targeting of forward firing weapons.


Engineering solutions. And not a problem at all for weapons with own sensor and datalink cueing. i.e. almost everything but the gun, which will rarely be used for more than a warning shot. The advantage is not with a HUD when head-up spherical SA and data are needed, to see-first, fire first, kill first, A2A, A2G, A2Su. A HUD would be comparatively hopeless at that, plus greatly limits maneuver options in very negative ways for a stealth fighter to maintain radial distance.

The Russians would be foolish to not push for HMD-ski like capability, to dramatically improve the odds of fighting other jets.

durahawk wrote: ... A HMDS is not part and parcel for a Fifth Gen by any means. The Raptor also has a fixed HUD afterall.


Just note that JSF is reportedly eating F-22A in exercise like no other fighter does. And F-22A is apparently not lording it over them. I'd be surprised if omni-directional data and display projection was not a major factor in F-35 pilots being able to kill F-22A, plus survive doing it to them.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 05:01
by wrightwing
element1loop wrote:



Just note that JSF is reportedly eating F-22A in exercise like no other fighter does. And F-22A is apparently not lording it over them. I'd be surprised if omni-directional data and display projection was not a major factor in F-35 pilots being able to kill F-22A, plus survive doing it to them.

I haven't seen any claims of F-35s eating up F-22s in exercises. What I have seen is that no F-35s were lost, when F-22s were augmenting Red Air.

Re: Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 05:18
by steve2267
element1loop wrote:But the days of using guns to strafe are done with...


element1loop wrote:Engineering solutions. And not a problem at all for weapons with own sensor and datalink cueing. i.e. almost everything but the gun, which will rarely be used for more than a warning shot.


Have to disagree here. AAR from the USAF F-35 unit most recently returning from the Middle East stated they had expended thousands of rounds of 25mm. Clearly it was useful for something -- IMO because of the HMD & the ability of the F-35 pilot to tailor the number of rounds per trigger press. Also, a wink-and-a-nod from some young USAF Lightning driver several years ago related to some unspecified air-to-air technique whereby the Panthers were sneaking up on their prey and gunning them before they knew it. When you first become aware of your enema is because of the great balls of fire streaking past your cockpit... well, that to me would be a fighter pilot definition of a bad day.