Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 16:54

milosh wrote:They did downplay stealth when they weren't making one, now they are talking about Su-57, S-70 and PAK-DA and praising their stealth projects. Something similar to Russian BS about glass cockpit in 1990s which I read in military journal, when Russian test pilot was critised glass cockpit and now they are also all in with it. So when we start making something it became excellent even though we talk it is rubbish only couple years before.

superb summary! also who is "we"??

milosh wrote:
What they bsing in past isn't relevant what is relevant is what they saying now,



roger, so current BS only? I don't think thats how trust works. those were old lies, we have exciting new lies.

luckily for us, there is no way they are BSing now like they always have?

milosh wrote:
Well for stealth single engine design problem was engine, as I point out if they used most powerful AL-31 variants, it would need to have heavier F-16 variant weight to match F-35 kinematics. So were is weapon bay and RAM?

Only now they have adequate engine.


AL-31 and AL-41 inadequate, got it.
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milosh

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 17:18

jetblast16 wrote:Pardon my ignorance...but I don't get this plane, namely, its configuration. With a single engine, depending on its actual loaded weights, that single engine is going to have to make some pretty serious thrust to be competitive with the likes of say the F-35...Typhoon, etc. Just how stealthy it is, is debatable. Range/ payload (full internal configuration), how much, if any, excess thrust, etc.


Because it isn't point of it but here folks think they tried to make F-35 for Russian AF which this bird isn't and will not be even with heavy upgrades.

Sukhoi CEO used African market as example, he said that market can't afford even cheapest available 5gen (which is F-35A) so we need to offered them something much cheaper but still 5gen.

But english presentation use best possible configuration which isn't what is developed right now and will only be ready much later. For example AL-51 need to be in production and Su-57 would be prime user of that engine because without AL-51, Su-57 rcs is lot higher and in some way pointless from stealth POV.

So right now it is stealth airframe with AL-41 tvc engine, without EOTS and with cheap AESA radar, and expected price is 20-30millions (export flyaway price).

So it is in price class of JF-17 or second hand F-16/MiG-29.

Stealth? I think we really don't need to question that if what we see will be build. Intake is quite bend and quite small, sides are quite flat, enigine is deep in airframe and hidden by tail, nozzle is LOAN.

And airframe is quite narrow which also helps.

Payload isn't great. Main weapon bay can carry three longer weapons, from what we saw on X-ray image it look liker two AAM (left and right) and some bigger weapon (antiship missile for example) in center.

F-35 for example can carry two AAM and two antiship missiles in main/only weapon bays.

So with much smaller empty space inside they save weight, also with 8G construction they save weight too and costs (aluminum is more then good for that limit).
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 17:35

Zhukovsky. July 20. INTERFAX – The cost of the flight hour of the new Russian fifth-generation fighter Checkmate will be seven times less than that of the American F-35, said the head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Yuri Slyusar.
"An important advantage of the new aircraft is the low cost of the flight hour. This is often a crucial moment for success in the market. We have it projected at about 7 times less than that of such an aircraft as the F-35, and is comparable to the cost of a Flight Hour Gripen NG. At the same time, the combat capabilities of the Checkmate LTS are significantly higher than the latter," Slyusar said in an interview with Interfax.


Image

oops.

milosh wrote:
Whole point of project is modularity two engines: two radars, different combination of sensors, with one gun with two guns or without gun at all.

About that Sukhoi CEO talked during presentation. He used African market as example, he said that market can't afford even cheapest available 5gen (which is F-35A) so we need to offered them something much cheaper but still 5gen.

But english presentation use best possible configuration which isn't what is developed right now and will only be ready much later. For example AL-51 need to be in production and Su-57 would be prime user of that engine because without AL-51, Su-57 rcs is lot higher and in some way pointless from stealth POV.

So right now it is stealth airframe with AL-41 tvc engine, without EOTS and with cheap AESA radar, and expected price is 20-30millions (export flyaway price).

So it is in price class of JF-17 or second hand F-16/MiG-29.

Stealth? I think we really don't need to question that if what we see will be build. Intake is quite bend and quite small, sides are quite flat, enigine is deep in airframe and hidden by tail, nozzle is LOAN.

And airframe is quite narrow which also helps.



according to milosh this is impossible, and he chided me mightily for saying this should have been done over a decade ago, especially when I mentioned the kind of markets this aircraft could sell to if they had built it.


Do you know milosh? you two should talk. just be warned, he is not exactly consistent in his claims.

@jetblast, I would be weary, but you can believe what you want.


conversation from not even 2 months ago:

XanderCrews wrote:

Russia should have been working on a single engine, lighter fighter from the start. gripen/F16 clone (china was smart enough to do this with their Lavi copy and that paki-17 plane-sorry their names escape me) . it was absolutely stupid to make the first post USSR jet a freaking F-22 analog. We know fighters cost by weight. dummies went heavy first and still can't make it work.

Would have made a fine MiG-21 thru MiG-29 replacement for all the east block users. But hey at least they can't even sell PaKFA to India now.



milosh wrote:
USSR sell MiG-29 without any problem to its satelites only when USSR fall apart problems for Russian medium fighter started.

You could get Su-30 for same price as MiG-29M! So why buying MiG-29M at all? Also why Sukhoi will bother with F-16 like fighter when Su-30 is selling superbly?

Then when PAK-FA program started they lacked powerful enough engine for single engine stealth like F-35. So they really didn't had option B then Flanker based PAK-FA, going with two engine medium stealth based on MiG-29M wouldn't make any economical savings, MiG-29M were lot less then Flankers so everything was more expensive for MiG-29M then for Flanker, basing new stealth on Flanker was right decision.

Even if new engine don't deliver then still have two big AL-41 engines.

Now when AL-51 engine is near serial production (Su-67 to call it) they can work on its single engine stealth. And market could be quite good. Asian countries which already use Flankers don't need another big fighter but would like something compatible with Flanker, Su-30 will surely get AL-51 and some other Su-57/Su-67 tech.


XanderCrews wrote:
You once again assume the argument and then attempt others to choose. You don't need to perfectly replicate F-35, and thus need a F135 engine. They could have gone with something much simpler, and lighter (one example would be smaller internal bays that would cut weight) It doesn't need to STOVL or land on a carrier right?

and am I correct that AL-41 is roughly equivalent to F110/F100 class engine?

If we want to argue that the engine tech wasn't there for an F110/F100 level thrust lightweight stealth fighter to replace the thousands of MiGs out there, I welcome it, but I'm also going to laughing pretty hard. That sure seems like well within the capability of Mighty Russia. To hear they couldn't make a fifth gen or 4.5 Gen F-16/Gripen NG bird until the mid 2020s would make me laugh until I cry, so I hope you stick with that argument.

The big critiscm of F-35 was the sheer amount of jobs and requirements it had. A light weight stealthy fighter without so much to do would seem like what we call in America a "slam dunk"..


..Indeed, and its only 20+years plus late, which is my point. There was a slug of nations with old outdated MiGs that the West gladly gobbled up in aircraft sales, while the "superbly selling" SU-30 was being sold in a small handful in Africa, because its "success" is that the Mig-29 is equally expensive. For some reason the "3rd option" that this thread is about, and that I am saying they should have done decades ago, and before PAKFA, was never considered.

You're going to blame the engines, I'm going to laugh.



milosh wrote:
To have similar agility as F-35, LWF with AL-41 would need to weight 9.5tons empty that is modern F-16 weight, where are weapon bays? Were is RAM? Were is heavier stealth nozzle? PESA or AESA radars aren't light at all if you want decent capabilities.

And if you look other medium stealths they all have two medium engines which is just additional proof you can't build decent stealth using one GE F132 like engine.

So nope without totally new engine russian stealth lwf is impossible.



don't quit your day job
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ricnunes

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 17:47

XanderCrews wrote:...

don't quit your day job


:mrgreen: :thumb:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 18:04

XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:
To have similar agility as F-35, LWF with AL-41 would need to weight 9.5tons empty that is modern F-16 weight, where are weapon bays? Were is RAM? Were is heavier stealth nozzle? PESA or AESA radars aren't light at all if you want decent capabilities.

And if you look other medium stealths they all have two medium engines which is just additional proof you can't build decent stealth using one GE F132 like engine.

So nope without totally new engine russian stealth lwf is impossible.



don't quit your day job


Do you read what you quoted? Well it look like you dont:

To have similar agility as F-35, LWF with AL-41 would need to weight 9.5tons empty that is modern F-16 weight,


Is Checkmate 9.5tons empty? Of course not. So what I wrote stand but you try to spin it and show I said you can't make stealth at all with AL-41. Nonsense. I was quite clear for F-35 like stealth you need AL-51.

So to be clear once agian I said you can't have F-35 like machine with AL-41, everyone else done that (make F-35 like medium fighter, J-31 or KF-21) Sukhoi on other hand decide to make lot cheaper design which cut corners a lot.

8G limit, radar which can track only SIX targets, not big main weapon bay.
Last edited by milosh on 21 Jul 2021, 18:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 18:04

Isn't it interesting that Russia seems to have taken some inspiration from the loosers of the ATF and JSF programs.

Some people say the Su-57 resembles the YF-23, I don't see it but they say its there. The Su-75 looks a lot like the proposed pelican tail version of the X-32.

So basically we have our F-22 vs F-23ski and F-35 vs F-32ski dream match-up :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 18:24

zero-one wrote:Isn't it interesting that Russia seems to have taken some inspiration from the loosers of the ATF and JSF programs.

Some people say the Su-57 resembles the YF-23, I don't see it but they say its there. The Su-75 looks a lot like the proposed pelican tail version of the X-32.

So basically we have our F-22 vs F-23ski and F-35 vs F-32ski dream match-up :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


If we exlude Russian claims, checkmate isn't F-35 like fighter so you can't compare them, F-35 is clearly noticable more capable.

In case of Su-57 they tried to match or even overtake F-22 capabilities but in case of checkmate nope (F-35 like).

Maybe in future (not soon though) it would close gap if get AL-51 but F-35 will get engine upgrade too and checkmate can't upgrade weapon bay or fuel capacity.
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 18:42

milosh wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:
To have similar agility as F-35, LWF with AL-41 would need to weight 9.5tons empty that is modern F-16 weight, where are weapon bays? Were is RAM? Were is heavier stealth nozzle? PESA or AESA radars aren't light at all if you want decent capabilities.

And if you look other medium stealths they all have two medium engines which is just additional proof you can't build decent stealth using one GE F132 like engine.

So nope without totally new engine russian stealth lwf is impossible.



don't quit your day job


Do you read what you quoted? Well it look like you dont:

To have similar agility as F-35, LWF with AL-41 would need to weight 9.5tons empty that is modern F-16 weight,


Is Checkmate 9.5tons empty? Of course not. So what I wrote stand but you try to spin it and show I said you can't make stealth at all with AL-41. Nonsense. I was quite clear for F-35 like stealth you need AL-51.

So to be clear once agian I said you can't have F-35 like machine with AL-41, everyone else done that (make F-35 like medium fighter, J-31 or KF-21) Sukhoi on other hand decide to make lot cheaper design which cut corners a lot.

8G limit, radar which can track only SIX targets, not big main weapon bay.


Did you ever read what I wrote at all?

I said that Russia should have pursued a single engine lightweight stealth fighter

Milosh, with his total lack if imagination said that could only mean F-35.

I emphasized more than once in that thread that there was an option beyond an F-35 clone, and that an engine could be picked and then the airframe constructed to match the power output of said engine, that a lighter airplane was perfectly capable. you insisted that F-35 ,was the only way, and then insisted again that such lightweight fighter as that I described was impossible And then used that F-35 strawman as argument to dismiss the exact fighter that sukhoi is now promoting in this thread, that you now fully support and are now lecturing us on like an expert and discussing it all as if it's already taken place.

The thread is still up, I've linked to it several times already. Keep digging buddy. You spent a lot of time telling us this was bad idea and what fools we are, and then sukhoi did exactly what we said they should have done years ago. And now you are all in and yelling us what fools we are.

Post all you want, but you have zero credibility with me personally. I'll leave it to everyone else what they decide.

Some of us who don't have the memory of a gold fish remember pakfa promises, so please spare us the propoganda
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 18:45

New Sukhoi Fighter Design Unveiled at MAKS
20 Jul 2021 David Donald

"Rostec and its United Aircraft Corp. (UAC) division have unveiled a new stealthy, lightweight fighter design at the MAKS 2021 show being held this week at Zhukovsky in the Moscow suburbs. The aircraft is referred to as the LTS “Checkmate” and is a product of the Sukhoi design bureau. It is marked with the registration “RF-0075” and the Bort (side number) “Blue 75,” suggesting that the type could be designated Su-75, or have the design bureau designation T-75. Whether the article on display is a full-scale mockup or a test article is open to question. However, Rostec claims the LTS is ready for flight-test.

Shortly before the show, Rostec released an English-language teaser video that gave little in the way of detail about the aircraft, but alluded to the fact that the Checkmate is aimed at the export market, with Argentina, India, the UAE, and Vietnam highlighted. The inclusion of the UAE is notable: at the IDEX show held in Abu Dhabi in February 2017, the UAE and Russia announced an agreement on industrial cooperation on defense projects, including the development of a light fighter. It is unclear if the VKS (Russian aerospace forces) have a requirement for this class of aircraft....

...The LTS is a stealthy, single-engine aircraft that is considerably smaller and lighter than the Su-57 “Felon,” although there are some similarities, such as the shape of the cockpit canopy. In terms of configuration, the Checkmate bears some resemblance to a Northrop multi-role fighter design from the early 1990s. It has a cropped delta wing, widely-splayed tail fins, and dispenses with horizontal stabilizers. The moveable fins act as ruddervators, providing control in both pitch and yaw axes, while the sole engine has a multi-axis thrust-vectoring nozzle.

Perhaps the most striking feature is the intake, an underslung chin inlet that wraps around the lower fuselage but with a flat underside, reminiscent of the intake of the X-32, Boeing’s unsuccessful competitor in the Joint Strike Fighter program. Slyusar commented that a two-seat version and an unmanned derivative are being considered...." [details follow]

Photo: "The LTS is seen during its unveiling ceremony at MAKS on July 20. (Photo: still from Rostec video)" https://www.ainonline.com/sites/ainonli ... 07/lts.jpg


Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... eiled-maks
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A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 18:56

XanderCrews wrote:Did you ever read what I wrote at all?

I said that Russia should have pursued a single engine lightweight stealth fighter

Milosh, with his total lack if imagination said that could only mean F-35.


Not just me but Chinese, Koreans and Indians all focus on something like F-35 but what those aircraft engineers and their airforces knows.

So to be clear, when I talk about russian lwf always think something like F-35 (check my argument with Corsair for example, I was for single engine fighter but only with AL-51 because of F-35). Maybe I am wrong and RuAF will buy lot of checkmates in this configuration, we will see.

Slyusar commented that a two-seat version and an unmanned derivative are being considered


WHY?!?

S-70 is lot better ucav and two seater smallish fighter, what with fuel???
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 19:02

milosh wrote:
Btw checkmate even with AL-41 is super cruise capable, when J-31 will be able for something like that?

But Cors isn't worse I saw someone asking why would someone buy checkmate when there is F-16V, Gripen and KF-21, I mean do you really kidding us? I understand questing checkmate realization but no you ask why would someone buy STEALTH design which can super cruise and cost at least same as those three?!?

Where are you getting this super cruise capable claim? I haven't seen that from any of the Russian marketing literature. They mentioned it's top speed, but said nothing of it's cruise speed capabilities.
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 19:17

Can see Belly Weapons Bay from @8:40~. 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS4jm7lyHr4
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 19:22

wrightwing wrote:
milosh wrote:
Btw checkmate even with AL-41 is super cruise capable, when J-31 will be able for something like that?

But Cors isn't worse I saw someone asking why would someone buy checkmate when there is F-16V, Gripen and KF-21, I mean do you really kidding us? I understand questing checkmate realization but no you ask why would someone buy STEALTH design which can super cruise and cost at least same as those three?!?

Where are you getting this super cruise capable claim? I haven't seen that from any of the Russian marketing literature. They mentioned it's top speed, but said nothing of it's cruise speed capabilities.


English presentation of checkmate on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNDrTSDmaZY

I now go fast trough presentation and saw they mentioned at third minute flexiable configuration: basic, medium, full.

And now you guess which one is able to super cruise or what each configuration have :?

What is also strange is earlier when checkmate was expected much later official mentioned new fighter will have variable intake and be able to super cruise and fly faster then Mach 2 (reason for variable intake).

Now we see max speed is Mach 1.8 so simple intake. How knows what they are doing, maybe full version will have AL-51 and variable intake. I really don't care much becuase this basic looks interesting in crazy way, I mean 2020s and you make VLO design with AESA radar which can track 6 targets, and it look like you made it take parts for other planes, some folks on web are sure V-stabs are from Su-57 and even part of wing, what else to say then crazy Ivan.

And to add it look like they borrow weapon bay for Su-57 too. It is funny we see Su-57 weapon bay now and on checkmate, for years we could see it open as some super secret :roll:
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 19:29

milosh wrote:

Not just me but Chinese, Koreans and Indians all focus on something like F-35 but what those aircraft engineers and their airforces knows.

So to be clear, when I talk about russian lwf always think something like F-35 (check my argument with Corsair for example, I was for single engine fighter but only with AL-51 because of F-35). Maybe I am wrong and RuAF will buy lot of checkmates in this configuration, we will see.



maybe they will buy them? Of the post Soviet designs that are being proposed with Checkmate and PAKFA, only one will serve mother Russia, and theyve built 12, with 2 already dead. in 30 years?

but again what I said they should have done:
XanderCrews wrote:

Image

There was a really neat looking "stealthy F-16" concept floating around. that is it on the left there, but its been hard to find. underslung intake for certain.



Russia should have been working on a single engine, lighter fighter from the start. gripen/F16 clone (china was smart enough to do this with their Lavi copy and that paki-17 plane-sorry their names escape me) . it was absolutely stupid to make the first post USSR jet a freaking F-22 analog. We know fighters cost by weight. dummies went heavy first and still can't make it work.

Image

Would have made a fine MiG-21 thru MiG-29 replacement for all the east block users. But hey at least they can't even sell PaKFA to India now.


I even included little pictures and other examples, for the learning challenged. Milosh insisted this meant I wanted to make an F-35 class clone, I reempahsized:



XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:Well no.

USSR sell MiG-29 without any problem to its satelites only when USSR fall apart problems for Russian medium fighter started.

You could get Su-30 for same price as MiG-29M! So why buying MiG-29M at all? Also why Sukhoi will bother with F-16 like fighter when Su-30 is selling superbly?


Because theres clearly a market for it? Beyond that F-16s still sell very well despite the fact that F-15s also sell well. There was indeed an F-16 market in the former warsaw pact as evidenced by recent history. You're narrowing the argument to Russia jet vs Russia jet, when European and American birds (F-16 namely, but there are other European wins across the board too) have been absolutely seizing markets that Russia decided to relegate since "Su-30 is selling superbly" That's a hilariously missed opportunity.

Not to mention there is "now" and "all of the sudden" a market for a lighter stealth fighter F-16 analog, which has only been a thing in the west since the 1990s-- See JSF and all the programs that lead to it.

They are just under 30 years late to the party. Now I eagerly await CG models, and wood models of this impressive Russian LW stealth they will sell to... Romani.. nope... Hunga... nope... ukrai...nope...India..nope.. Pola.. nope...

ummm Eritrea? maybe North Korea?

Think of all the MiG-21 and MiG-23 operators out there. And then look what happened...

...You once again assume the argument and then attempt others to choose. You don't need to perfectly replicate F-35, and thus need a F135 engine. They could have gone with something much simpler, and lighter (one example would be smaller internal bays that would cut weight) It doesn't need to STOVL or land on a carrier right?

and am I correct that AL-41 is roughly equivalent to F110/F100 class engine?

If we want to argue that the engine tech wasn't there for an F110/F100 level thrust lightweight stealth fighter to replace the thousands of MiGs out there, I welcome it, but I'm also going to laughing pretty hard. That sure seems like well within the capability of Mighty Russia. To hear they couldn't make a fifth gen or 4.5 Gen F-16/Gripen NG bird until the mid 2020s would make me laugh until I cry, so I hope you stick with that argument.


I wish I could bold and underline ever more, but I think we get the picture



WHY?!?


the better to JSF my dear... :mrgreen:

theyre just throwing things at the wall to see what generates interest, much like 200 Su-57, I doubt you'll see even half this stuff actually come to any fruition
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 19:40

Nope I didn't mean you want F-35 clone, I was writing about F-35 clone. But time will tell if RuAF go with AL-41 version as fighter then you are totally right that they lost time and money, and I also was wrong.

But what if they decide for AL-51 version? How we would look on that :D I mean it is still what you mentioned (lighter smaller weapon bay) but still have big a$$ engine which I was point out. Draw maybe :mrgreen:

AL-41 version could be quite interesting for RuAF as Su-25 replacement.

Two seater could be their option for LIFT no other role I see, but I really don't see point in UCAV at all.

Xander, selling some new fighter to ex-eastern block countries was mission impossible for Russia no matter how good it is. Almost all of those countries enter NATO in 2000/2004 so no wonder why very little work was done on lighter fighter by Sukhoi back then and as I said back then they really didn't have time nor capacity for that, Su-27/30 are sold as hot cakes.
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