Russian F-35 equivalent at MAKS 2021?

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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 02:44

jessmo112 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.


India will think hard before helping to fund another Russian wunderplane.

Vietnam strikes me as pragmatic and shrewd. They will look at the history of the Su-57, Russian, and India... I doubt Vietnam helps fund the program. Though they might buy it if it became available.

Is it Indonesia or Malaysia that has the Mig-29's falling apart can cannot keep them in flying order? With used F-16's available seemingly anywhere, new F-16V's available with decent AESA 'dar, Saab constantly dingling their bells, Dassault with their Rafale's for sale pretty much anywhere, and this new Korean jet under development... why would a nation buy this aircraft?


India, Vietnam:
I'm am very sorry, but we want nothing to do with checkmate at this time.
Russian arms dealer: sigh....ok but we had high hopes that you would be the 1st customer before the Chinese.
India, Vietnam: We are sold put us down for 100 each!



I doubt India would have any interest in the LTF. While, Vietnam surely couldn't afford it.....

This is Russia's problem.....(i.e. finding a partner)
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 02:58

element1loop wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:So, the question is who would partner with Russia to develop the LTF???


The Kremlin?


Russia can't adequately fund the Su-57 and/or T-14 MBT. (plus many other programs) So, forget about them going it alone with the LTF.



In addition they just don't need any partner. They need a partner with deep pockets! :shock:
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element1loop

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 03:01

I really don't know why the insistence Russia needs a sucker to make this a go. Nice to have but not necessary. The question is can an Su57 survive a well developed "Checkmate". Which incidentally is the same name as a popular condom brand when I was young, which isn't helping to suppress self-emergent giggle fits.
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 03:12

element1loop wrote:I really don't know why the insistence Russia needs a sucker to make this a go. Nice to have but not necessary. The question is can an Su57 survive a well developed "Checkmate". Which incidentally is the same name as a popular condom brand when I was young, which isn't helping to suppress self-emergent giggle fits.

:twisted: :oops: :roll: :mrgreen: :devil: Check yur Mates: https://www.google.com/search?q=Checkma ... 6833455986 :devil: :mrgreen: :shock: 8) :D
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 03:14

XanderCrews wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.


India will think hard before helping to fund another Russian wunderplane.

Vietnam strikes me as pragmatic and shrewd. They will look at the history of the Su-57, Russian, and India... I doubt Vietnam helps fund the program. Though they might buy it if it became available.

Is it Indonesia or Malaysia that has the Mig-29's falling apart can cannot keep them in flying order? With used F-16's available seemingly anywhere, new F-16V's available with decent AESA 'dar, Saab constantly dingling their bells, Dassault with their Rafale's for sale pretty much anywhere, and this new Korean jet under development... why would a nation buy this aircraft?


its going to be a steep climb. I'm having a hard time seeing it, but I'll admit I don't know the markets in a lot of these countries. it seems like the only likely purchasers are those with little to no options, but those purchasers also have little to no money. they can always do like Saab does and just list every not too poor country as a potential sale. I'm hearing good things about... spins globe, the Ivory Coast. Argentina got barred from Gripens, but Argentina has so little money.

spazsinbad wrote:But But BUTT the 'good onya mate cheque' is ready for flight test doncha know (quote in video clip attached).


Given the tolerance they have for risk I don't doubt that for a second. :twisted: in the same way that every ship can be a minesweeper once, Everything can make at least one test flight.



YES, and the Russian LTF has some stiff competition in the market place. As China is developing the J-31/J-35, South Korea the KF-21, and Turkey the TFX to just name three!

So, again why would any nation selected the Russian LTF??? (just saying)
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element1loop

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 04:19

Corsair1963 wrote:
element1loop wrote:And Moscow will never spend vast sums on giant thermonuclear-armed, nuclear-powered torpedoes. :doh:


Really, why isn't Russia buying even modest numbers of Su-57 Stealth Fighters and T-14 MBT's??? Not like they don't need them! :shock:


Oh please, debating via logic and evidence will always work better than your prolific tendency for pointless quips and rhetoric.

The 76 planned and currently under construction Su57 isn't modest numbers? Get real.

This modest fleet looks like an interim capability until they can build a convincing 5th-gen single, aiming for this things' ~16,300 lb of payload and ~1,625 nm of 'range'. The absurd assertion RuAF wouldn't be primarily interested in this and interested far more than anyone else, is quite a display of blind-hope and fairly incomprehensible denial.

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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 04:30

element1loop wrote:
Oh please, debating via logic and evidence will always work better than your prolific tendency for pointless quips and rhetoric.

The 76 planned and currently under construction Su57 isn't modest numbers? Get real.


How many Fulcrums and Flankers have the Russian Built???

The US alone has built over 800 F-22/F-35 Stealth Fighters and that number is growing by well over a hundred per year. So, Russia builds 76 over nearly a decade and that isn't modest???

:roll:

This modest fleet looks like an interim capability until they can build a convincing 5th-gen single, aiming for this things' ~16,300 lb of payload and ~1,625 nm of 'range'. The absurd assertion RuAF wouldn't be primarily interested in this and interested far more than anyone else, is quite a display of blind-hope and fairly incomprehensible denial.



You need to cut back on the Medication. As it will lead to you undoing.......... :?
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 12:57

Corsair1963 wrote:
element1loop wrote:
Oh please, debating via logic and evidence will always work better than your prolific tendency for pointless quips and rhetoric.

The 76 planned and currently under construction Su57 isn't modest numbers? Get real.


How many Fulcrums and Flankers have the Russian Built???

The US alone has built over 800 F-22/F-35 Stealth Fighters and that number is growing by well over a hundred per year. So, Russia builds 76 over nearly a decade and that isn't modest???

:roll:


This modest fleet looks like an interim capability until they can build a convincing 5th-gen single, aiming for this things' ~16,300 lb of payload and ~1,625 nm of 'range'. The absurd assertion RuAF wouldn't be primarily interested in this and interested far more than anyone else, is quite a display of blind-hope and fairly incomprehensible denial.



You need to cut back on the Medication. As it will lead to you undoing.......... :?


And responding to a complaint made on you, I see what they're complaining about. You "Corsair1963" need to drop that kind of talk, now.
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 13:10

ricnunes wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:What's with the "Gay Pride" background?


Perhaps they (Russians) are already expecting that this aircraft will take many missiles up the tailpipe :twisted:


Ha, good one!
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milosh

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 15:30

Some new info, russian vice premier confirmed they already had buyer for checkmate and buyer's requirments influnced design. Maybe this confirm UAE involment in program becuase they have money and can afford to have F-35 and checkmate, plus they can tuned checkmate as they need which they can't with F-35 in fact even first level partners couldn't influence F-35 design.

This confirm what I already wrote, checkmate wasn't designed for RuAF, RuAF wouldn't want checkmate becuase it can't be F-35 analog (load capacity, sensors etc) with AL-41 engine and sensors it have now.
But because checkmate happened RuAF would be foolish not to get it because variant with AL-51, advanced radar and EOTS would be tough opponent to Su-57 and would cost noticable less. Cheaper variants can replaces MiG-29 and Su-25 which they couldn't with Flankers.

Someone asked about price.

Well base checkmate is quite easy for analise. Lets we take domestic Su-35 price, it is around 30million or bellow (official contract). It have two AL-41, it have lot of titanium in structure and it have composite skin, it also have big advanced PESA radar.

Checkmate have one AL-41, not many titanium in structure, it have also composite skin but surface area is much smaller, it have AESA radar but basic one.

So price wise I don't see why base checkmate would cost more then Su-35, in fact it could be quite cheaper.

Advanced version is another story but we don't have info about AL-51 price and cost of advanced AESA radar and Russian EOTS.

It is funny to read how Corsair1963 try to explain Russia don't have money to MAKE checkmate while he wrote eariler it have money to BUY J-31. I mean two engine bigger fighter for which Russia would need to pay market price is affordable but single enigne (engine which will be widespread in Russian fleet) smaller fighter for which they don't need to pay market price isn't affordable :mrgreen:

Btw checkmate even with AL-41 is super cruise capable, when J-31 will be able for something like that?

But Cors isn't worse I saw someone asking why would someone buy checkmate when there is F-16V, Gripen and KF-21, I mean do you really kidding us? I understand questing checkmate realization but no you ask why would someone buy STEALTH design which can super cruise and cost at least same as those three?!?
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 15:57

There is certainly some wild optimism for Checkmate out there. I mean, let's take the supercruise claim (or more accurately, inference, I.E. "continuous supersonic speeds"). The aircraft hasn't even flown yet! How on earth can they say in the real world it can supercruise? They can't. A simulator (or computer simulation) showing such? Sorry, but I can create vaporware planes on my computer all day long that supercruise. Doesn't mean I can actually build and fly one, right?

Look, they've done some interesting work here. It has potential. A lot of athletes I knew had potential, but very few realized it (for various reasons). For the record, I hope Russia sees it through. But it's going to be really difficult, really expensive and really tough competing in a market the F-35 has largely dominated. If the UAE is indeed the mystery partner, I have a hard time seeing them operating both the F-35 and Checkmate. Wouldn't surprise me to see Washington put the kabosh on the F-35 being sold to them now.

Hard to say where it'll be 5 years from today. If I was a betting man though, I'd say it's stillborn after a few prototypes are flown. That's just how I see it...
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 16:19

Pardon my ignorance...but I don't get this plane, namely, its configuration. With a single engine, depending on its actual loaded weights, that single engine is going to have to make some pretty serious thrust to be competitive with the likes of say the F-35...Typhoon, etc. Just how stealthy it is, is debatable. Range/ payload (full internal configuration), how much, if any, excess thrust, etc.
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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 16:32

milosh wrote:Some new info, russian vice premier confirmed they already had buyer for checkmate and buyer's requirments influnced design. Maybe this confirm UAE involment in program becuase they have money and can afford to have F-35 and checkmate, plus they can tuned checkmate as they need which they can't with F-35 in fact even first level partners couldn't influence F-35 design.



utterly false.

milosh in the last 2 months you have made so many claims, and false guesses, and counter intituive things, right down to getting really basic stuff like the above wrong, that I'm glad you post here, but boy do you have no idea what you are talking about. worse, you're just going to regurgitate the company line, which i Can hear directly without your commentary

Thats very disappointing because I really hoped we would get actually good data and information from someone in the know, but I feel like at every turn you've botched it.

so nothing personal, and I'm glad you post here, but I'm not going to trust anything you say.

This confirm what I already wrote, checkmate wasn't designed for RuAF, RuAF wouldn't want checkmate becuase it can't be F-35 analog (load capacity, sensors etc) with AL-41 engine and sensors it have now.
But because checkmate happened RuAF would be foolish not to get it because variant with AL-51, advanced radar and EOTS would be tough opponent to Su-57 and would cost noticable less. Cheaper variants can replaces MiG-29 and Su-25 which they couldn't with Flankers.



you've written a lot, like you told us this thing wouldn't be built by Sukhoi since they have their hands full. again its early yet, and a lot of your guesses even in this very thread have been wrong.

Your opinions are yours of course, but I think you can stop masquerading as some kind of authority figure, insider, or expert.



Well base checkmate is quite easy for analise. Lets we take domestic Su-35 price, it is around 30million or bellow (official contract). It have two AL-41, it have lot of titanium in structure and it have composite skin, it also have big advanced PESA radar.

Checkmate have one AL-41, not many titanium in structure, it have also composite skin but surface area is much smaller, it have AESA radar but basic one.

So price wise I don't see why base checkmate would cost more then Su-35, in fact it could be quite cheaper.

Advanced version is another story but we don't have info about AL-51 price and cost of advanced AESA radar and Russian EOTS.


you have no idea, you have "educated" guesses. not even Sukhoi can actually tell us what this will cost until the end.

It is funny to read how Corsair1963 try to explain Russia don't have money to MAKE checkmate while he wrote eariler it have money to BUY J-31. I mean two engine bigger fighter for which Russia would need to pay market price is affordable but single enigne (engine which will be widespread in Russian fleet) smaller fighter for which they don't need to pay market price isn't affordable :mrgreen:

Btw checkmate even with AL-41 is super cruise capable, when J-31 will be able for something like that?



you swore up and down in the other thread that AL-51 was absolutely needed:

milosh wrote:
To have similar agility as F-35, LWF with AL-41 would need to weight 9.5tons empty that is modern F-16 weight, where are weapon bays? Were is RAM? Were is heavier stealth nozzle? PESA or AESA radars aren't light at all if you want decent capabilities.

And if you look other medium stealths they all have two medium engines which is just additional proof you can't build decent stealth using one GE F132 like engine.

So nope without totally new engine russian stealth lwf is impossible.




now it can Super cruise with Al-41? having never flown a single flight yet? super cruise with what load out?

So I would really be careful about giving anyone a hard time. I've actually thought about posting all the stuff you have said that completely makes no sense and/or contradicts itself, but:

A. It would take a lot of time (I still might, time enjoyed is never wasted)
B. I can't think of a title

Either "milosh's lies" or "milosh vs. milosh" because either you have been fantastically wrong, or someone with completely different opinions from those previously put out there keeps posting under your name.


But Cors isn't worse I saw someone asking why would someone buy checkmate when there is F-16V, Gripen and KF-21, I mean do you really kidding us? I understand questing checkmate realization but no you ask why would someone buy STEALTH design which can super cruise and cost at least same as those three?!?


You can quit carrying Vladimirs water, komrade. Your opinions and thoughts on this magically change to align with whatever is said about this thing. It would never use AL-41 right? and now here you are telling us it can, and super cruise with it as well. Thats a helluva change. what changed your mind exactly? You said it was impossible before, and now its not only possible, its amazing and everyone would be crazy not to buy it?

You need to put the kool-aide down and realize its early yet. people making predictions about PAKFA in 2010 look really dumb and JSF in 2001 look really dumb. You're not immune to propoganda, and the future is extremely hard to predict. all programs look great in the honeymoon phase, and everyone who ever got married thought it was forever laughs the divorce lawyer.

take a bite of humble pie and stop flying off the handle with stuff you told us just weeks ago was "impossible" yourself. what changed? Did Russia say it so it became true?

milosh vs milosh should be quite a battle, truly hoping you don't go back and delete all the guesses you made earlier as you lectured all of us on "impossible" only to tell us the exact opposite today.
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steve2267

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 16:34

Given Russia's history producing "stealth" aircraft and the history other nations have had maintaining 4th gen aircraft (e.g. Malaysia Mig-29), yes, I do think other nations would look hard at F-16V, Gripen C/D/E/F, KF-21. If someone really wants stealth, smart money may actually be on the Koreans and the KF-21 who apparently have plans to see that design grow all the way to a 6th-gen platform (whatever 6th gen is). KF-21 is real, metal hardware.

Yes, UAE can probably afford to bankroll the Checkmate. Why would they, though, when they are getting F-35? As MIxel points out, why risk the F-35 -- the world standard -- by buying Checkmate? The only way that makes any sense to me is that Russia has a deal with UAE to pass on F-35 tech once UAE gets its hands on the F-35. And that seems pretty far fetched.

Who needs a Checkmate aircraft?
  1. India
  2. Taiwan
  3. Turkey
  4. Iran

I do not see Russia willing to risk the ire of the Chinese by building and selling Checkmate to #2. Turkey probably doesn't have the money to fund it. IMO they are foolish to do it, after their Su-57 experience, but I could see India saying, "Look here Russia, this Su-57 is a fools errand, and we are not going to continue wasting rupees on it, but if you, Sukhoi, want to build us an aircraft that does X, Y, Z, we will help fund development and buy Z for this price."
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 16:43

milosh wrote:I doubt it is wooden mockup but I also doubt it is flying prototype, maybe static prototype?

JSF problems could happen if they design it to be like JSF, three different versions, lot of roles etc.

If they just focus on CTOL with air to air and antiship role (EOTSski photo and antiship missile behind mockup/prototype) then its development wouldn't be that hard.



milosh wrote:Now it is much clearer what they did.

There are plaining to offer modular plane you choice what you want.




trouble ahead then it seems...

milosh wrote:Well to be realistic only MiG was talking about LWF, UAC/Sukhoi weren't they said only when work on Su-57 is done they will start work on lighter stealth fighter.



so i guess its going to be a while then?

jetblast16 wrote:Pardon my ignorance...but I don't get this plane, namely, its configuration. With a single engine, depending on its actual loaded weights, that single engine is going to have to make some pretty serious thrust to be competitive with the likes of say the F-35...Typhoon, etc. Just how stealthy it is, is debatable. Range/ payload (full internal configuration), how much, if any, excess thrust, etc.


milosh says its both impossible from the start but also capable of super cruise, so pick which milosh to believe, and theres your "answer" --just don't engage your brain or anything.
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