Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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madrat

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 02:16

Corsair1963 wrote:Which, gave the future non-Western Fighter Market to the Chinese. :shock:

Russia seems to move more big tin than China even after the latter hyped it's breakthroughs. I think coronavirus has chilled Chinese military exports for the short term. Time will tell.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 02:52

madrat wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Which, gave the future non-Western Fighter Market to the Chinese. :shock:

Russia seems to move more big tin than China even after the latter hyped it's breakthroughs. I think coronavirus has chilled Chinese military exports for the short term. Time will tell.



With the failure of the Su-57. Russia has little to sell......This while China has the J-20 and is developing the J-31/J-35. Which, she can afford to produce in numbers.
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madrat

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 03:09

Russia keeps moving Flankers. China moves trainers.
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mixelflick

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 12:40

madrat wrote:I wouldn't dismiss a LW stealth out of Russia. They only need a single-engine counterpart to Su-57 within 5-7 years, which is pretty much when Su-57 would hit it's projected run. Su-57 is their stealth teething program. The LW fighter makes more sense when they master stealth. They've been working on stealth for over 40 years, back when America was itself beginning to rethink air doctrine. They just weren't as well funded and unwittingly allowed China to buy out their think tank around their stealth programs. Without Russian engineers the Sino-stealth program starts at ground level. But that's old water under the bridge now.


With respect to the part I bolded... what's the story here? I was aware they violated the Flanker agreement/license, but never heard anything about them stealing Russian engineers (with stealth knowledge) ??
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madrat

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 15:05

Stuff circulating two decades ago. China poached literally every engineer across ex-Soviet states to quickly flesh put their intellectual cache. The Soviets were dismissive of stealth but China was not. China built up their schools with thousands of engineers trained in Soviet universities because they came so cheap compared to western trained.
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milosh

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 16:26

mixelflick wrote:Milosh, your statement about the Mig-35 costing as much as an SU-35 floored me. Are you sure? Just seems like you get a whole lot more aircaft in the SU-35. I mean, if they cost the same and the Mig-35 has comparable or better capability (newer), why isn't Russia buying more Mig-35's?


Because of this:
https://bashny.net/t/en/30405

That is how modern MiG assembly line look like.

And this is old Su-30 assembly line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxr4PDT544

You have two massive Sukhoi assembly lines which make fighters in serial manner and you have that thing in MiG. And that is why MiG-35 could cost more to be build and to be maintain even though Su-35 is almost two times heavier.



@Corsair1963


You really become boring with Chinese take over Russian fighter market. What market exacly?

Most important Flanker market is in Asia and all users of Flankers have quite big problems with Chinese. So J-31 (when it happens) will not take that market at all. Africa very likely, but it is much less important market for Russian fighter industry.

Biggest impact of Russian fighter market happen in 1990s with WarPact breakdown when most of MiG-29 users stop buying them. That is when MiG go down. On other hand Sukhoi export exploded and from more less unknown soviet fighter maker they become most successful fighter maker in last couple of decades.

If you ask me Chinese as biggest oil importers and fast growing military super power will soon start pushing its fighters on rich Arab market. And last time I check this isn't Russian market but American one? And F-35 embargo on export in that region and USAF doubts in F-35 would only help J-31 to be sold there.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 17:28

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:So it would seem a model of an unknown single-engine fighter jet was noticed recently, in a photo on (head of Rostec) Chemezov’s desk. Note the nose section of the aircraft.

You don't think.... could they actually design something uglier than the X-32?? I guess we'll find out shortly, as the promised big reveal is in July!!


X-32 is ugly not because of intake but because of airframe design. It had low mounted engine (STOVL solution) so it look like bathtub with wings on top.

For now there isn't any reason Sukhoi LFI have low mounted engine, but we will see.



Image

There was a really neat looking "stealthy F-16" concept floating around. that is it on the left there, but its been hard to find. underslung intake for certain.



Russia should have been working on a single engine, lighter fighter from the start. gripen/F16 clone (china was smart enough to do this with their Lavi copy and that paki-17 plane-sorry their names escape me) . it was absolutely stupid to make the first post USSR jet a freaking F-22 analog. We know fighters cost by weight. dummies went heavy first and still can't make it work.

Image

Would have made a fine MiG-21 thru MiG-29 replacement for all the east block users. But hey at least they can't even sell PaKFA to India now.

good choices all around there, Vlad.

Russians make great enemies because they defeat themselves.
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milosh

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 20:58

XanderCrews wrote:Russia should have been working on a single engine, lighter fighter from the start. gripen/F16 clone (china was smart enough to do this with their Lavi copy and that paki-17 plane-sorry their names escape me) . it was absolutely stupid to make the first post USSR jet a freaking F-22 analog. We know fighters cost by weight. dummies went heavy first and still can't make it work.

Image

Would have made a fine MiG-21 thru MiG-29 replacement for all the east block users. But hey at least they can't even sell PaKFA to India now.

good choices all around there, Vlad.

Russians make great enemies because they defeat themselves.


Well no.

USSR sell MiG-29 without any problem to its satelites only when USSR fall apart problems for Russian medium fighter started.

You could get Su-30 for same price as MiG-29M! So why buying MiG-29M at all? Also why Sukhoi will bother with F-16 like fighter when Su-30 is selling superbly?

Then when PAK-FA program started they lacked powerful enough engine for single engine stealth like F-35. So they really didn't had option B then Flanker based PAK-FA, going with two engine medium stealth based on MiG-29M wouldn't make any economical savings, MiG-29M were lot less then Flankers so everything was more expensive for MiG-29M then for Flanker, basing new stealth on Flanker was right decision.

Even if new engine don't deliver then still have two big AL-41 engines.

Now when AL-51 engine is near serial production (Su-67 to call it) they can work on its single engine stealth. And market could be quite good. Asian countries which already use Flankers don't need another big fighter but would like something compatible with Flanker, Su-30 will surely get AL-51 and some other Su-57/Su-67 tech.

Other buyers which can't buy F-35 would have interesting option. J-31 would be more expensive then single engine flanker based stealth.
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madrat

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 00:18

Russia never exported the King Daddy of their fighters, MiG-31, which would have been destabilizing in several corners of the globe. Nor did they export Tu-22M3 or Su-34, both options offering substantial improvement over previous export options. But they did offer made-to-order Su-27, Su-30, and MiG-29. None of them really threatened to destabilize anything. That tells you something about what they really think about their exports.

MiG-29 has been somewhat a humiliation for ex-Soviet customers. MiG-23 and MiG-27 exports were plentiful and cost less to maintain. But Russia wanted to kill the Flogger lines off and neglected potential to modernize around a good Flanker or MiG-31 analogy. MiG-29 was literally one maintenance crew slot cheaper with a price tag off the lot too similar to the Flanker yet a huge delta in performance. MiG-29 really was a dead end unless it grew substantially in size or performance. No money, no chance.

If they go a single engine stealth they still have street cred in the export market. That's something China can't match.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 00:23

madrat wrote:Russia never exported the King Daddy of their fighters, MiG-31, which would have been destabilizing in several corners of the globe. Nor did they export Tu-22M3 or Su-34, both options offering substantial improvement over previous export options. But they did offer made-to-order Su-27, Su-30, and MiG-29. None of them really threatened to destabilize anything. That tells you something about what they really think about their exports.

MiG-29 has been somewhat a humiliation for ex-Soviet customers. MiG-23 and MiG-27 exports were plentiful and cost less to maintain. But Russia wanted to kill the Flogger lines off and neglected potential to modernize around a good Flanker or MiG-31 analogy. MiG-29 was literally one maintenance crew slot cheaper with a price tag off the lot too similar to the Flanker yet a huge delta in performance. MiG-29 really was a dead end unless it grew substantially in size or performance. No money, no chance.

If they go a single engine stealth they still have street cred in the export market. That's something China can't match.


Who would want the Mig-31 in the first place???
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madrat

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 01:09

Corsair1963 wrote:who would want the Mig-31 in the first place???

Kazakhstan has been pretty happy with them. Syria, Iran, Venezuela, and Algeria would have loved them.

Honestly the MiG-31 probably has as many victories in the air as MiG-29. And what, one loss? Out of 500 built since 1985 they have two lost from accidents. That's a pretty good record.
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zhangmdev

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 04:16

KADF has 4 Mig-31 crashes since 2007. Russian has crahsed as many since 2013? I don't known.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 06:12

madrat wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:who would want the Mig-31 in the first place???

Kazakhstan has been pretty happy with them. Syria, Iran, Venezuela, and Algeria would have loved them.

Honestly the MiG-31 probably has as many victories in the air as MiG-29. And what, one loss? Out of 500 built since 1985 they have two lost from accidents. That's a pretty good record.




Pure speculation.....


Nonetheless, your average Su-30 and/or Su-35 are far more versatile and better fighters when you get right down to it.... :wink:
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madrat

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 12:39

Speculation? Far bigger AND solid state radar than even Su-30. Long range SAM-sized AAMs. Mach3 capability. Longer legs. Unparalleled datalink cooperation for air search and intercept targeting. Telescoping visual identification system. Bigger IRST eyeball. Conventional ASM support was dropped because they really have one main role with Russia AF and Navy, control of the air. Hypersonic ASM options niche for special time sensitive targets. Anti-satellite options. It's not even a comparison.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 13:06

Corsair1963 wrote:
Who would want the Mig-31 in the first place???


Any Mig-25 customer for example?? :wink:
And there were considerable Mig-25 exports. (exported to 7 nations outside the old USSR)

And on top of this, the Mig-25 was one of the most successful Soviet designs of the Cold war and the only Iraqi fighter aircraft to have any success during Desert Storm, having shot down an F/A-18 and damaging an F-15 (the only situation where a F-15 was close to being shot down in Air-to-Air combat) and it also enjoyed a great deal of success during the Iran-Iraq war.

So I can easily imagine that the Mig-31 would be a serious threat! IMO a quite more serious than the Flanker (perhaps with the exception of the Su-35).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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