Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post14 Dec 2021, 07:33

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:It look like only now MiG will be forced to focus on MiG31, LTS would kill MiG35 and probable any big MiG29 upgrade plans, so what else MiG could do? Focus on MiG31, they already getting new upgrade deal and if they are smart they will try to pull as much as possible from that. Instead dreaming of MiG41 they need to make MiG31BM2 as best as possible.


Yeah because that is all Mikoyan can do for the Russian Airforce at this point unless they want to spend additional money to upgrade their existing fleet of Mig-29s which appears to be very unlikely at this point in time.

Russia's new stealth fighter is well behind its major competitors (US and China). If and/or when Russian Aerospace finally puts out an actual product, the market out there will already be saturated by F-35s or already start to be cornered by what ever export Chinese fighter may come out. Russia needs to find a buyer and or partner now or else it might become a very small specialized token force in their inventory like the Su-57 is looking to be now.


Even if Russia found a partner for the Checkmate (LTS) or even funded it themselves. It likely would be 10-15 years before the first aircraft came off the production line. Assuming the funding was adequate........(fully funded)

Even then I doubt it could seriously challenge the US or Chinese Stealth Fighters. (F-22, F-35, J-20, J-35, etc.)

Hell, the South Korean KF-21 is likely better!

As I said before I think Russia has pretty much lost the Non-Western Fighter Market. (5th Gen) Just doesn't have anything to sell. Unless, they can work out the problems with the Su-57. Which, appears to be highly unlikely......
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milosh

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 07:57

If 10-15 years would needed for first production plane then whole thing is pointless and they can't find partner for it not even RuAF would be interested.

From what we see they go with lot of developed stuff from Su57.

If Su57 took 10-15years then smaller Su75 with tech already developed would need lets say half of Su57 time.

But they need state order.
Last edited by milosh on 15 Dec 2021, 08:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 08:09

milosh wrote:If 10-15 years would needed for first production plane then whole thing is pointless and they can't find partner for it not even RuAF would be interested.

From what we see they go with lot of developed stuff from Su57.

If Su57 took 10-15years depend how look serials then much smaller Su75 with tech already developed would need lets say half of Su57 time.

But they need state order.


What they need is much more funding!

Honestly, I have my doubts they can really salvage the Su-57 but with enough resources. They would at least have a shot....
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milosh

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 08:14

Yeap without money it wouldn't work even though lot of stuff is done. For example early F16 block60 was upgraded F16XL with similar or same F22 wing but without funding it didnt go nowhere.

Good thing is energetic crisis and reformed industry thanks to sanctions. So I doubt money would be problem but it need state order. I just hope RuAF don't push for more Su57 instead getting Su75.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 08:29

milosh wrote:Yeap without money it wouldn't work even though lot of stuff is done. For example early F16 block60 was upgraded F16XL with similar or same F22 wing but without funding it didnt go nowhere.



The Gripen E is a failure in large part because of the slow funding and development of the aircraft. Which, means it arrived too late to the marketplace.

Sadly, Russia seems to be following the same path with the Su-57! (ouch)

What they need to do is find more funding whatever it takes. While, pursuing partners and potential customers! Plus, they need help with marketing too.
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milosh

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 09:48

Su57 R&D is done it is in serial low rate production and for 2023 it would be in normal production rate similar to Su35 rate.

If you meant Su75 then yes it need funding aka state order.

Btw Su57 facility was design for 2x higher production rate then what RuAF ordered because of expected Indian order. So they csn use that empty capacity for Su75 and becuase it use lot of things from Su57 I think that is plan.
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mixelflick

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 19:27

Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:Yeap without money it wouldn't work even though lot of stuff is done. For example early F16 block60 was upgraded F16XL with similar or same F22 wing but without funding it didnt go nowhere.



The Gripen E is a failure in large part because of the slow funding and development of the aircraft. Which, means it arrived too late to the marketplace.

Sadly, Russia seems to be following the same path with the Su-57! (ouch)

What they need to do is find more funding whatever it takes. While, pursuing partners and potential customers! Plus, they need help with marketing too.


Very much true about the slow funding. By the time adequate numbers of SU-57 arrive and a real combat capability is fielded, the F-35 will have a new engine, sensors, weapons etc.. The F-22 as well, although it will be nearing the end of its life with USAF. It could be that by the time SU-57 gets here the F-22 is retired, which would really be something.

I wonder how much $ they're spending on the Hunter drone, and what that drag is on the Felon program. Since they seem to insist on both working together, that may hamper both programs from fully maturing prior to 2030..
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Unread post16 Dec 2021, 03:21

mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:Yeap without money it wouldn't work even though lot of stuff is done. For example early F16 block60 was upgraded F16XL with similar or same F22 wing but without funding it didnt go nowhere.



The Gripen E is a failure in large part because of the slow funding and development of the aircraft. Which, means it arrived too late to the marketplace.

Sadly, Russia seems to be following the same path with the Su-57! (ouch)

What they need to do is find more funding whatever it takes. While, pursuing partners and potential customers! Plus, they need help with marketing too.


Very much true about the slow funding. By the time adequate numbers of SU-57 arrive and a real combat capability is fielded, the F-35 will have a new engine, sensors, weapons etc.. The F-22 as well, although it will be nearing the end of its life with USAF. It could be that by the time SU-57 gets here the F-22 is retired, which would really be something.

I wonder how much $ they're spending on the Hunter drone, and what that drag is on the Felon program. Since they seem to insist on both working together, that may hamper both programs from fully maturing prior to 2030..


Clearly, Russia doesn't have adequate funding to recapitalize every military program. Yet, you would think a Stealth Fighter would be near the top of the list.......
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Unread post17 Dec 2021, 16:11

Great point. But Russia also seems to be suffering from the following when it comes to stealth aircraft..

1.) Late, late start
2.) Heavier/less capable avionics. No evidence yet of truly integrated avionics
3.) Inferior engines
4.) Mass production "issues"

In addition to all that, I'm not convinced... they're convinced stealth is "worth it". They've overcome issue #1 in the past, and quickly caught up. Fulcrum/Flanker airframes more or less countered the huge advantage F-15/16 gave us. Or at least got them in the ballpark. They've dealt with issues 2 and 3 too, primarily via heavier avionics but compensated for with a "brute force" approach (i.e. Foxbats "Smerch" radar and SU-35's monster Irbis E PESA). As for engines, they generally match or exceed thrust levels of same generation western engines (but with far less impressive TBOH numbers).

It is the expertise needed and manufacturing tolerances associated with stealth though, that've really stumped them. An no, I don't think 76 Felon's over almost 10 years qualifies. I'm not sure if the skilled work force, computer/robot technology or something else is missing, but stamping out thousands (or even several hundred) SU-57's is simply beyond them right now. I think they know it too, and have modified their doctrine so to speak accordingly.

Checkmate looks to me as their attempt to turn things around. For the future of Russian combat aviaton's sake, I hope it works. At this point though, it's a real long shot IMO...
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milosh

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Unread post20 Dec 2021, 08:17

mixelflick wrote:As for engines, they generally match or exceed thrust levels of same generation western engines (but with far less impressive TBOH numbers).


Yes during cold war but today Russia build long lasting engines.

Russian AL41 (Su35 engine) have at least 4000h service life while Soviet AL31(Su27/30 engine) have 1000h!

But AL41 have much higher price tag for example Su30 cost lot less then Su35 and one of reason is lot cheaper engine, couple of million per engine isn't small difference when you have two engines.

USSR didn't build long service engines not because they couldn't but they saw all military hardware as short lived in case of new world war. So they wanted things which they mass producted even during world war.

Another reason why USSR couldn't afford expensive engine are its satellites, satellite couldn't pay expensive engines and in many cases USSR practically give them fighters as present.

This create problem to users of soviet fighters which had money for example my Yugoslavia, we could afford expensive engines but Soviets didn't make them, so we mastered maintaining of their engines and we were probable even better then what Soviets done, I think we even extended service life with more expensive parts one which we had tech to build, some parts we couldn't figure out how Soviets make them nor USSR wanted to share know how.

So Arabs states would send their MiGs to maintained to our institutes, and now we still have Iraq's MiG-23 which weren't deliever to Iraq becuase of UN sanctions, btw we didn't had MiG23 but we were able to maintain them!
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Dec 2021, 15:59

milosh wrote:So Arabs states would send their MiGs to maintained to our institutes, and now we still have Iraq's MiG-23 which weren't deliever to Iraq becuase of UN sanctions, btw we didn't had MiG23 but we were able to maintain them!


Interesting that Iraqi Mig-23s story.
BTW and since the Iraqi UN sanctions have been lifted for quite some time (more than a decade and close to 2 decades) didn't or doesn't Iraq wants their Mig-23s to be returned?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post20 Dec 2021, 16:33

http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=25662.0

"Iraqi officials were briefly interested in them but lost interest after inspection of the state of aircraft and after they were informed on possibilities and cost to back them in flyable condition."

People talking about Iraqi MIGs in Yugoslavia. That work was done in the 1990s.
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Dec 2021, 16:36

zhangmdev wrote:http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=25662.0

"Iraqi officials were briefly interested in them but lost interest after inspection of the state of aircraft and after they were informed on possibilities and cost to back them in flyable condition."

People talking about Iraqi MIGs in Yugoslavia. That work was done in the 1990s.


Thanks for the info, zhangmdev :thumb:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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madrat

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Unread post21 Dec 2021, 05:55

I was pretty excited when India looked at Al-31 for the Flogger fleets.
It turns out that MiG-23 airframes barely lasted as long as Al-31 engines. India Floggers were obviously not young, hence the proposal was a still born. I really thought the MiG-23 was pretty awesome for its day, but its short lifespan really didn't do it any favors for surviving the Cold War. Although an Al-31F powered MiG-23 would have been possible, the ability of tbe airframe to deteriorate so quickly made it impractical. Maybe D-30 was a better match for MiG-23 interceptors than Al-31. Their Turmansky was a legitimate turbojet for high altitude, high speed intercepts. D-30 was a big leap in power, so maybe too big of jump for an already fragile airframe. And a turbofan-based powerplant probably made more sense only for MiG-27, where they were flying down low.
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Unread post21 Dec 2021, 14:21

Yeah original engine on the Mig-23 allowed it to put up some impressive numbers. Like being able to handily out-accelerate and F-14 in a drag race. I'm assuming an F-14A, but the author wasn't specific.

'Lotta thrust, very little drag..
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