Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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tphuang

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 00:52

This seems rather underpowered. It's too large to have good T/W ratio with any single engine that Russia has.
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 07:14

FEIWC5OWUAMLSzG.jpeg
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/russia-doesnt-seem-sure-the-su-75-checkmate-will-be-stealth/

Info coming in that the plane isn't even considered stealthy.

The plane is not light weight.
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 07:25

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element1loop

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 08:20

tphuang wrote:This seems rather underpowered. It's too large to have good T/W ratio with any single engine that Russia has.


You mean it can't turn, can't climb and can't run?

Makes sense.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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milosh

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 08:48

jessmo112 wrote:
FEIWC5OWUAMLSzG.jpeg
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/russia-doesnt-seem-sure-the-su-75-checkmate-will-be-stealth/

Info coming in that the plane isn't even considered stealthy.

The plane is not light weight.


Airframe design is stealth but question is what RAM you get for base price of 30 millions. I don't think some advanced RAM but even without it you have better RCS then JF17 B3, MiG35 or second hand JAS39 or F16. Those are competitors in that price range. Could they really deliver for that price we need to see but even if price is lot higher it still is very interesting buy especially when only other alternative is F35 which export is political thing.
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Gums

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Unread post15 Nov 2021, 23:19

Salute!

Milosh has it right, imho, about what you get for the $$$ in effective RAM coatings.

I saw some of the early stuff used on the Viper pylons and carraige store - figure early 90's and a bit later, but not much. Very thick, heavy and likely affected drag besides weight. The thin, light, expensive and effective stuff was on the 117 and maybe on the Raptor plus B-2, but never got close enuf to compare. I can bet that it was very costly. So a few years pass..... The stuff on the F-35 looked and felt like tradiitonal coatings and I crawled over a few of them here at Eglin.

The platform shape is very important for most of the LO attribute, and until we perfected the testing algorithms for reflection and wavelengths, initial designs were very crude. The things they do now are magic. All I can say.

Lastly, no way to have the $$$ they are discussing without selling a thousand or more platforms and minimal avionics.

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nutshell

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Unread post20 Nov 2021, 23:31

"Intellectual"

A plane of culture
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mixelflick

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Unread post23 Nov 2021, 16:29

Corsair1963 wrote:Russian Military (Air Force) may be forced to fund the Checkmate. As the Su-57 is never going to be produced in great numbers.

So, unless Russia would procure something like the J-31. Which, they possibly could build under license. What other choice do they have other than the Checkmate???

:|


They don't, and that's the problem. Going back to the Flanker is always a possibility, but that's going to increasingly look Mig-35ish every day that passes. No stealth, no buyer is what I think this really boils down to. If the SU-75 encounters problems like its big brother, Russia could be out of the fighter export game in a decade or less.

I think they know it too, which is why they're going to give the Checkmate everything they've got. Flankers won't last forever, and sooner or later they need to 1.) move on or 2.) buy foreign. As unlikely as option 2 may seem, I'm not so sure they're going to have a choice...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Nov 2021, 03:04

mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Russian Military (Air Force) may be forced to fund the Checkmate. As the Su-57 is never going to be produced in great numbers.

So, unless Russia would procure something like the J-31. Which, they possibly could build under license. What other choice do they have other than the Checkmate???

:|


They don't, and that's the problem. Going back to the Flanker is always a possibility, but that's going to increasingly look Mig-35ish every day that passes. No stealth, no buyer is what I think this really boils down to. If the SU-75 encounters problems like its big brother, Russia could be out of the fighter export game in a decade or less.

I think they know it too, which is why they're going to give the Checkmate everything they've got. Flankers won't last forever, and sooner or later they need to 1.) move on or 2.) buy foreign. As unlikely as option 2 may seem, I'm not so sure they're going to have a choice...


Russia hasn't given the Checkmate anything but I hope you find a buyer. Then maybe we can afford to buy a few... :doh:
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tphuang

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 14:19

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:We of course procured the F-22 first....

We also didn't upgrade the Eagles with a lot of the newer tech to save funding/status for the F-22. Russia pumped tons of money into tech demonstrators and Flanker upgrades.


That was a necessity. They had no money for anything in the late 90s to early 2000s. So Sukhoi had to pump out demonstrator and flanker upgrades to attract foreign sales to keep themselves going. It was only after 2005, that Russia had enough money to really start its own 5th generation project. As we see now, they don't really have enough money or domestic industries to really complete it in a timely manner.

Long term, Russia is likely to keep exporting su-35s. There will still be plenty of nations that don't need stealthy aircraft.

For me, it doesn't make sense for them to have both Sukhoi and Mikoyan right now when they can only fund 1 next generation project. They shouldn't try to have a second project that takes away funding from the first one. Unless its entirely foreign funded, this makes no sense. Less annual development budget for Sukhoi simply leads to slower development cycle and eventually lead to more cost overrun and smaller production run -> higher unit cost. It's a disastrous strategy to have such indecision.

They are not China. They don't have money to build several demonstrators and have 2 real 5th generation project.
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milosh

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 23:25

@tphaung

LTS is design to use as much as possible from SU57. It is like F35A share wings, vstabs,weapon bay, cockpit and some sensors with F22, but it use F15/16 engine.

That is what SU75 would be as UAC Rostec see it. Not some Russian like F35. That would be better engine or at least same as planned SU57 engine, better sensors and better RAM then SU57.
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Unread post26 Nov 2021, 15:01

I don't understand the chorus bagging on the latest modernization in Russia. It had to change because Europe isn't their main threat, ot is China. Their eastern borders are quickly turning Sino-red and they are being undermined across an economic spectrum that is a huge threat to their future. Last time the Chinese got this aggressive there they had a real bloody skirmish that few people seem to even know happened. So Russia has no choice but to modernize at a greater efficiency than in the past.

Su-75 is a good analogy to an F-16 program. Russia has no F-35 program nor can they afford one. But they know quite a lot about stealth shaping and can match China in everything but numbers. So they are pushing quality over quantity now. Su-57 only has to match J-20 because the Su-75 will still outclass most everything else China has built. The real worry for the Kremlin isn't airframes, it is missile technology. Russia is lagging behind China there.
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milosh

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 12:56

charlielima223 wrote:
Russia's latest foray into 5th gen fighters is (perhaps) their last attempt to stay in the premier fighter jet market. Russia needed India as a financial partner for their PAKFA ambitions to succeed. We all knew that when India dropped out of it, Russia would have to go it alone and they didn't have the economical power to do so. Now they're trying with a less ambitious fighter with experience learned from the PAKFA in hopes someone will take interest and help fund their project. I believe that for the sake of national vanity/pride that even if no one take interest in it, Russia will still go ahead with it and procure this aircraft for their own forces.


It isn't pride in case of LTS but logical move. MiG29 replacement would be MiG35 but lagged so much that this ad hoc Sukhoi project became fierce competitor even if they go with el cheapo version it is still ahead MiG35 in price,cpfh and calabilites. It look more like how F16 need to be in XXI century then F35ski.
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mixelflick

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 15:43

The Mig-35... Russia bought a whole 6, I think. And it looks like nobody else wants it so... I dont' know how much time/$ they wasted on that thing, but I bet they wish they had at least some of it back. Or alternatively, had started the SU-75 idea earlier.

But hey, hindsight is 20/20. The issue being that in the past, they could afford such mistakes and keep plowing ahead. The Mig-23 and 25 eventually gave way to the Mig-29, SU-27 and Mig-31. All exceptional airframes, all much better than their predecessors. Yet now long in the tooth, and let down somewhere either by their engines, avionics, weapons or a very narrow mission set. No fighter is perfect, but no fighter period is a distinct possibility, especially if the SU-75 suffers the same fate as the Mig-35 (or even SU-57).

The Russians will figure something out, but its increasingly clear that something might not be even a quasi-stealth aircraft to sell to foreign buyers. Take heart though Russia, the Canadians still haven't announced the winner of their fighter competition..
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milosh

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Unread post29 Nov 2021, 07:43

MiG35 is overdue and expensive, hypothetical J35 is still prototype and for carrier so land variant will take time to be develop and with russian equipment even longer and it would cost a lot.

So only option is LTS if they think to have modern and cheap to operate fighter. SU35 could cost similar but it isn't more nor cheap to operate. Btw I am pretty sure cheaper variant of SU75 would cost less then SU35. I mean if have one engine same composite skin and coatings and cheaper airframe I don't see why it would cost more then SU35 especially for RuAF which don't pay RD costs.
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