Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 12:02

Corsair1963 wrote:The Su-57 is more akin to LO than VLO (F-22, F-35, NGAD)......


I think these LO and VLO descriptions tend to be way too crude. Many 4++ gen aircraft are described as LO and then next level is VLO, which is like 4 orders of magnitude smaller RCS. I'd call these aircraft with external weapons and equipment as "reduced signature" or something along those lines. I'd use LO for aircraft like Su-57, which is likely somewhere between F-35 and 4++ gen aircraft in RCS with internal weapons and fuel. VLO could be for aircraft like F-35 and F-22. Maybe next level could be something like ELO/XLO (Extremely Low Observable).
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madrat

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 12:23

I'd think it probably is more like the latest F-16.
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 13:34

hornetfinn wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Su-57 is more akin to LO than VLO (F-22, F-35, NGAD)......


I think these LO and VLO descriptions tend to be way too crude. Many 4++ gen aircraft are described as LO and then next level is VLO, which is like 4 orders of magnitude smaller RCS. I'd call these aircraft with external weapons and equipment as "reduced signature" or something along those lines. I'd use LO for aircraft like Su-57, which is likely somewhere between F-35 and 4++ gen aircraft in RCS with internal weapons and fuel. VLO could be for aircraft like F-35 and F-22. Maybe next level could be something like ELO/XLO (Extremely Low Observable).


:thumb:
I couldn't agree more with the above!
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 13:36

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:
Nope. Design meet VLO requirements (with new LOAL nozzle) this is what was confirmed by 3d model study done by Chinese in 2016. If Su-57 got stealth nozzles it would be VLO design was their conclusion.

Only question was build quality and in that field Su-57 we have biggest surprise. It is something we probable never saw in Russian aviation. There aren't gaps and you can hardly see any nut, also it have two RAM layer first one is applied in factory (which is quite thick) then you have additional spray layer applied in base, second layer reduce RCS but also protect first layer. On top of that they plan to use protective covers for Su-57 to reduce RAM degradation even more.


A new engine nozzle wont give it VLO levels. Too many bad design decisions that prevent it from getting there.



Exactly!
I really, really doubt that a new engine nozzle would reduce in any significant way the aircraft's (Su-57) RCS.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 14:58

If the Russians want a LWF, they must first have some success with the SU-57. Yet, it won't be a mature design or have all the bugs worked out until the mid/late 2020's (at the earliest).

At that point, they may have a launching off point for a LWF. However, by then it'll be at least 2030 and 6th gen platforms will be coming into service. The timing just doesn't work IMO, and it goes back to 1991. USSR collapsed, and rougly a decade was lost before their first crack at stealth flew. More than a decade later, it still isn't in front line/operational service and it may be a decade more before it is.

They did the best they could with what they had IMO, but there will be no LWF in Russia's future. The past still haunts them..
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milosh

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 16:12

charlielima223 wrote:A new engine nozzle wont give it VLO levels. Too many bad design decisions that prevent it from getting there.


Chinese did math and got VLO values for frontal RCS which are similar to other models they tested but side and rear isn't. Reason are classic round nozzles of model. So they point that as only big problem for all around VLO design of model.

Btw this is similar to other estimates which expect Russians will only focus on frontal RCS and don't bother with side and rear, but now we know AL-51 have nozzle which is design for stealth.
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madrat

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 19:12

mixelflick wrote:If the Russians want a LWF, they must first have some success with the SU-57. Yet, it won't be a mature design or have all the bugs worked out until the mid/late 2020's (at the earliest).

At that point, they may have a launching off point for a LWF. However, by then it'll be at least 2030 and 6th gen platforms will be coming into service. The timing just doesn't work IMO, and it goes back to 1991. USSR collapsed, and rougly a decade was lost before their first crack at stealth flew. More than a decade later, it still isn't in front line/operational service and it may be a decade more before it is.

They did the best they could with what they had IMO, but there will be no LWF in Russia's future. The past still haunts them..

I agree with the last part but there is no evidence for the first. Russia has not failed to make a lot of export hardware with the K-I-S-S principle. I see no reason they cannot do it again, considering it's a product of cultural factors. If they stuck to the simplest way to get a LWF and forgo the idea of being another JSF-ski product, I would not doubt they can get there, IMHO they'd have to compete with something no bigger than an F-16. They have several engine options if they stick to twin engines. They would probably aim for twin tails, twin inlets, and twin barrel (30mm?) cannon. But it seems they are always stuck on twin-engines, too. It might not be a bad idea to aim for a look like the Chinese L-15 and Boeing T-7A had a baby, only with more powerful afterburning engines.
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charlielima223

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 07:00

milosh wrote:Chinese did math and got VLO values for frontal RCS which are similar to other models they tested but side and rear isn't. Reason are classic round nozzles of model. So they point that as only big problem for all around VLO design of model.

Btw this is similar to other estimates which expect Russians will only focus on frontal RCS and don't bother with side and rear, but now we know AL-51 have nozzle which is design for stealth.


Is this the same state run Chinese analyst who claimed that their COVID cases dropped to near zero when it was found out that COVID originated in China? Same state run analyst who claimed that the F-35 is only stealthy from the front and not the rear? I am sure their analysts have a very trustworthy track record in recent years. Another thing to ask is how accurate their models were? Did those models take into account that big RCS increasing pimple on the front of the aircraft?

Image

did those models also take into account the exposed engine inlet? Oh wait it has a radar blocker now, it must be VLO now. If that is the case, the engine inlet of the Super Hornet makes the Super Hornet stealthy as well because it has a radar blocker, it is slightly curved, and has a shape conducive to bringing down its RCS.
Image

was the AL-51 really designed for stealth or is it just what state run Russian media has been selling? Why not have the early prototype and test models with AL-41s engines in them be modified to truly demonstrate, test, and validate a stealthy engine design? Seems to me they saw what the F-35 did with the LOAN nozzle and scrambled to copy it then came out and said, "see how stealthy it is? We didn't have to test and validate it. You just have to believe us because we said so".

stop trying to claim the Su-57 is VLO because there are too many half-assed attempts to inherent in its design. Quite frankly I would be surprised if from the front the Su-57 was comparable to the F-117 in terms of RCS values.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 15:01

madrat wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If the Russians want a LWF, they must first have some success with the SU-57. Yet, it won't be a mature design or have all the bugs worked out until the mid/late 2020's (at the earliest).

At that point, they may have a launching off point for a LWF. However, by then it'll be at least 2030 and 6th gen platforms will be coming into service. The timing just doesn't work IMO, and it goes back to 1991. USSR collapsed, and rougly a decade was lost before their first crack at stealth flew. More than a decade later, it still isn't in front line/operational service and it may be a decade more before it is.

They did the best they could with what they had IMO, but there will be no LWF in Russia's future. The past still haunts them..

I agree with the last part but there is no evidence for the first. Russia has not failed to make a lot of export hardware with the K-I-S-S principle. I see no reason they cannot do it again, considering it's a product of cultural factors. If they stuck to the simplest way to get a LWF and forgo the idea of being another JSF-ski product, I would not doubt they can get there, IMHO they'd have to compete with something no bigger than an F-16. They have several engine options if they stick to twin engines. They would probably aim for twin tails, twin inlets, and twin barrel (30mm?) cannon. But it seems they are always stuck on twin-engines, too. It might not be a bad idea to aim for a look like the Chinese L-15 and Boeing T-7A had a baby, only with more powerful afterburning engines.


Its kind of funny how we are told there was no need for an LWF but there is now

There was no need!!!... but if there was they didn't have the engines for it so its not worth building

But they made the PAKFA, and the engines can come later

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 15:12

madrat wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If the Russians want a LWF, they must first have some success with the SU-57. Yet, it won't be a mature design or have all the bugs worked out until the mid/late 2020's (at the earliest).

At that point, they may have a launching off point for a LWF. However, by then it'll be at least 2030 and 6th gen platforms will be coming into service. The timing just doesn't work IMO, and it goes back to 1991. USSR collapsed, and rougly a decade was lost before their first crack at stealth flew. More than a decade later, it still isn't in front line/operational service and it may be a decade more before it is.

They did the best they could with what they had IMO, but there will be no LWF in Russia's future. The past still haunts them..

I agree with the last part but there is no evidence for the first. Russia has not failed to make a lot of export hardware with the K-I-S-S principle. I see no reason they cannot do it again, considering it's a product of cultural factors. If they stuck to the simplest way to get a LWF and forgo the idea of being another JSF-ski product, I would not doubt they can get there, IMHO they'd have to compete with something no bigger than an F-16. They have several engine options if they stick to twin engines. They would probably aim for twin tails, twin inlets, and twin barrel (30mm?) cannon. But it seems they are always stuck on twin-engines, too. It might not be a bad idea to aim for a look like the Chinese L-15 and Boeing T-7A had a baby, only with more powerful afterburning engines.


The Russian Federation hasn’t produced a single new operational fighter aircraft….all of their operational designs are from the Soviet era. The Su-57 isn’t truly operational when you have all of 12 built, with 10 of them being prototypes. The Su-57 is far from ready for prime time and now they’re going to produce a light weight stealth fighter? Maybe, but it will probably start to enter production right around the time the Americans and Chinese are rolling out sixth generation platforms.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 17:32

icemaverick wrote:
madrat wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If the Russians want a LWF, they must first have some success with the SU-57. Yet, it won't be a mature design or have all the bugs worked out until the mid/late 2020's (at the earliest).

At that point, they may have a launching off point for a LWF. However, by then it'll be at least 2030 and 6th gen platforms will be coming into service. The timing just doesn't work IMO, and it goes back to 1991. USSR collapsed, and rougly a decade was lost before their first crack at stealth flew. More than a decade later, it still isn't in front line/operational service and it may be a decade more before it is.

They did the best they could with what they had IMO, but there will be no LWF in Russia's future. The past still haunts them..

I agree with the last part but there is no evidence for the first. Russia has not failed to make a lot of export hardware with the K-I-S-S principle. I see no reason they cannot do it again, considering it's a product of cultural factors. If they stuck to the simplest way to get a LWF and forgo the idea of being another JSF-ski product, I would not doubt they can get there, IMHO they'd have to compete with something no bigger than an F-16. They have several engine options if they stick to twin engines. They would probably aim for twin tails, twin inlets, and twin barrel (30mm?) cannon. But it seems they are always stuck on twin-engines, too. It might not be a bad idea to aim for a look like the Chinese L-15 and Boeing T-7A had a baby, only with more powerful afterburning engines.


The Russian Federation hasn’t produced a single new operational fighter aircraft….all of their operational designs are from the Soviet era. The Su-57 isn’t truly operational when you have all of 12 built, with 10 of them being prototypes. The Su-57 is far from ready for prime time and now they’re going to produce a light weight stealth fighter? Maybe, but it will probably start to enter production right around the time the Americans and Chinese are rolling out sixth generation platforms.


exactly my point.

now depending on who you ask this is all the right moves, and its going great despite the evidence

Or

Maybe they made some mistakes.

I'm not expert Russian military genious, but i would have started on the smaller, easier to produce, more exportable, cheaper fighter before trying my hand at the more sophisticated, heavy, and expensive one. But thats just me.

I have a hard time keeping track of all the excuses and propoganda
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milosh

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 21:43

@charlielima223

It is academic publish study and really no reason for Chinese to boost Su-57 when some of folks worked on J-20. Btw it isn't much different from other calc done by some other folks but they don't have credentials as Chinese.

So shape wise it is VLO design.

OLS, explained in patents and now we have confirmation they threated glass and internal with ram coatings too, leading engineer of company which work new stealth coatings mentioned that in interview, same is applied on other two smaller spherical sensors.

Radar blocker doesn't mean non stealth design, in fact F-18E/F intakes are reason for much lower RCS but it doesn't have weapon bay nor was design to have planform alignment, so those two are reason why F-18E/F can't consider VLO design.

Nozzle? Stealth nozzle was mentioned in patents and those were public in early 2010s. I know it crush some folk's dreams, Su-57 will be stealthy only from front but it isn't my problem I will point out BS when I see it, same as I point out that when I see at Russians.

They did downplay stealth when they weren't making one, now they are talking about Su-57, S-70 and PAK-DA and praising their stealth projects. Something similar to Russian BS about glass cockpit in 1990s which I read in military journal, when Russian test pilot was critised glass cockpit and now they are also all in with it. So when we start making something it became excellent even though we talk it is rubbish only couple years before.
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madrat

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 23:27

You're not helping your argument, milosh. They generally gave you a polite exit point and you're doubling down. It makes no rational sense.
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zero-one

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Unread post20 Jul 2021, 22:36

FB_IMG_1626816266426.jpg

Are these Chines?

FB_IMG_1626816273280.jpg

Radar wings?

FB_IMG_1626816288865.jpg

Unmanned variant.

Some targets and claims



-Short Take Off and Landing
-$25-30 million cost
-3k km range or 1.5k km combat radius
-1,900 kph speed
-More than 7 ton payload
-First flight set for 2023
-2024-2025 construction of prototypes
-2026-2027 pilot batch/serial deliveries
- (V)LO, all round passive sensor set
- multirole (ie PAK-FA weapon set)
- AESA with 6 target capability under ECM
- AI support for combat missions
- up to 5 AAMs in VLO config (2 SRAAMs in quick and 3 MRAAMs in main?)
- ECM, counter-VLO capability
- in bay cannon containers


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... id=fbshare
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zero-one

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Unread post15 Aug 2021, 04:34

Russian fans making a big deal of the F-35 taking at least some insperation from the Yak-141.

Pffffft. At this point everyone is trying to be an F-22/35
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