Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2020, 04:08
by popcorn

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2020, 11:47
by hythelday
1) source is Sputnik
2) 2025 is still not-so-near future

That said Russians have been wooing Algerians into buying Su-57 since long ago, so there might be some truth behind it. Although same Russian sources have trumpeted that Algeria is going to buy Fullback "soon" for years already, as well as already "bought" corvettes from Russia in 2015 even though the steel for them haven't been cut yet.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2020, 15:57
by tequilashooter
Do not know if the purchase is still considered a rumor other than a Su-57 sticking in the background behind those military officials.

Algeria background.jpg

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2020, 16:49
by milosh
Su-57 new engine is close to production, last what I saw tests are going quite well and start of production is expected in 2022.

I don't think anyone expect Russia would want Su-57 with old engine.

So it is possible Algeria is buying Su-57 becuase engine problem is solved.

New engine isn't just important for advanced supercruise but for stealth also. Radar blocker as some sources mentioned is design for AL-51. So without AL-51 there is probable no radar blocker either.

Also AL-51 have new stealthy nozzle.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2020, 19:05
by madrat
Once upon a time it was MiG-31. Then Su-35S. Now it's Su-57. I'll trust when we can verify it.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2020, 14:42
by mixelflick
popcorn wrote:https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/algeria-to-get-14-su-57-fighters-from-russia.html


Militarywatch magazine (another pro-Russian publication) has been saying the same now - for years. Their latest "confirmation" had to do with the fact the SU-57 appeared in the background of that mural. I'm pretty sure that doesn't = a real buy. Hard to see LM telling investors the same as "evidence" of an F-35 sale, LOL.

On the engine being so far along Milosh... that's interesting. Haven't heard it anywhere else though, and I'm fairly certain the Russians would be trumpeting that to the high heavens if true. Source?

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2020, 17:11
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:On the engine being so far along Milosh... that's interesting. Haven't heard it anywhere else though, and I'm fairly certain the Russians would be trumpeting that to the high heavens if true. Source?


https://tass.com/defense/1219079

Btw Algeria have 13 operational MiG-25 so 14 Su-57 will replace them quite well of course with new super cruising engine.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 01:12
by element1loop
"12 or 14" aircraft ... possibly 28!

They couldn't decide ... so signed a contract for them anyway ... Sputnik. :roll:

Got to ask, why not just get Su35s? I hear they can totally toast a whole fleet of F-35A.

Logic.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 01:32
by element1loop
Suspect this has more to do with Spain likely to get F-35A and F-35B at sea soonish rather than just F-16 BK72 coming next door. There are also reports the Algerian Air Force has S-400 since 2015.

The arrival of the S400 will not only fill gaps in the air defense but will saturate the long-range air surveillance. 1-Photos irrefutably show S400 launchers that differ from those of S300PMU2, which is BAZ-64022 vehicle not the KrAZ-260 of the PMU2 2- 8 launchers aligned on a picture and three during the test on a second. In reality, the Algerian army has undertaken an overhaul of its DAT and the appearance of S400 in his arsenal is only part of modernization.

http://defence-blog.com/news/algeria-mi ... stems.html


Erdogan pipped?

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 20:09
by mixelflick
See, here's where I have "issues" with these Russian sources of information...

Christmas eve 2019 the first serial SU-57 crashes. We're told it won't affect its introduction into service one bit, full steam ahead. https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... ed-in-2020

Now we're told the Russian air force is to receive their first production example in December, 2020. HELLO - That's a 1 year delay. And that assumes this one doesn't crash/otherwise have issues that delay its entry into service. Also, it's ONE airframe, not a "serial batch".

A cursory search for "SU-57" on their website brings up a plethora of stories about the bird, most of which come across as "rah rah" pieces that seriously stretch the truth. If you believe those stories, the following countries are in talks and/or ordering it..

China, India, Algeria, Ethiopia, Turkey, Vietnam, Malaysia, the UAE, Iran, Egypt and North Korea - and I probably missed a few. Yet, no firm orders from anyone (other than the Russian air force)?

It's so advanced, they're turning it into a 6th gen, unpiloted drone complete with lasers and artificial intelligence. No wait, it's radar, weapons and other uber-tech is being retro-fitted to their Flanker fleet. And it's going to team with the Hunter drone, which I guess means they'll be doing the two drone shuffle in the near future?

You don't have to follow this program long to know: It's a lot of smoke and mirrors, and very little substance...

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 21:42
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:Su-57 new engine is close to production, last what I saw tests are going quite well and start of production is expected in 2022.




Lol.everything is always going great with this program. It's always almost there. Tests are going well. It's always rolling right along etc


Why it's been ALMOST a whole calendar year since a crash. That's reason to celebrate.

No need for all weather capability people, this airplane is always "blue skies."

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 22:57
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:Su-57 new engine is close to production, last what I saw tests are going quite well and start of production is expected in 2022.




Lol.everything is always going great with this program. It's always almost there. Tests are going well. It's always rolling right along etc


Why it's been ALMOST a whole calendar year since a crash. That's reason to celebrate.

No need for all weather capability people, this airplane is always "blue skies."


I was quite precise, I wrote about engine development. There is reason why engine is probable most strongest part of whole program with new weapons too. And reason is quite logical.

You can use them on other fighters regardless of Su-57. If Su-57 tech couldn't be applied on anything else it would have same fate as MiG-42.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 03:08
by madrat
What's a MiG-42 have to do with Su-57?

Neither Mikoyan Project 1.42 (Foxglove) or Mikoyan Project 1.44 (Flapjack) were called MiG-42.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 05:54
by element1loop
mixelflick wrote:China, India, Algeria, Ethiopia, Turkey, Vietnam, Malaysia, the UAE, Iran, Egypt and North Korea - and I probably missed a few. Yet, no firm orders from anyone (other than the Russian air force)?


0nly $143 million each on these numbers though.

Keep the dream alive!

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 06:28
by milosh
madrat wrote:What's a MiG-42 have to do with Su-57?


It is example. You have plane with engine which can't be fitted in any other operational fighter expect maybe MiG-31 but back then they didn't had money to have MiG-31 in air, and they didn't sold any MiG-31 so MiG-42/44 would be highly expensive without any chance to return investment.

MiG-42/44 engine (AL-41) compared to Su-30/35/57 engine (AL-41F):
Image

In case of Su-57 (AL-51 engine) you have different situation. Engine fit in Flankers without problem. So that isn't engine just for 76 Su-57 but for much bigger fleet.

They already start replacing AL-31 with 117S so when AL-41F is ready to be replaced we can expect they will go with AL-51 in future.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 13:07
by madrat
milosh,

Neither MiG Project 1.4x configuration (of same airframe) really had the engine they were looking for at the time. So it is not a good example of anything to do with a future aircraft unless you mean 'unobtainium'.

If the Flanker series just needed more power they could have used the engine from Su-34 for an Su-30 or Su-35S variant. It would have been potentially practical in a case like that to use one Tu-160 engine, NK-32(-1) if more thrust was important. Throwing a bigger engine into an airframe is not always a practical solution. Soviet and Russian planners always have logistics in mind for their designs. It has to be sustainable. You might believe that wasn't the case after the way MiG failed to support MiG-29 exports, but that had to do with company retraction of resources and being unable to sustain so many models when cash was short.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 18:01
by milosh
madrat wrote:milosh,

Neither MiG Project 1.4x configuration (of same airframe) really had the engine they were looking for at the time. So it is not a good example of anything to do with a future aircraft unless you mean 'unobtainium'.


You have AL-41 which development started in early 1980s, it was expected to be ready in 1990s, it was something like F119 but scaled up to F135 size. Older reports it was variable cycle engine were false. Confirm by Saturn engineer in one earlier interview.

But then USSR was no more, so no funds, and it was killed which also kill MiG-1.44 it had only one flight and engine was prototype of AL-41. Only plane and engine which really got funds was Flanker and AL-31 becuase it was export success so they don't rely on domestic orders.

madrat wrote:If the Flanker series just needed more power they could have used the engine from Su-34 for an Su-30 or Su-35S variant.


For you info they already are doing that, AL-41F (Su-35 engine) is engine which other Flankers are getting when there is time for new engine. Su-34 is only Flanker which don't get AL-41F because they have AL-31FM1 which is more poweful then AL-31 and have longer service life so it would take a while when they need new engine.

madrat wrote: Soviet and Russian planners always have logistics in mind for their designs. It has to be sustainable.


Which is reason why AL-51 will be used in Flankers down the line, it make logistics lot easier, now they have couple of AL-31 variants in use. While there is lot of commonality still each is different.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 21:41
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:
I was quite precise, I wrote about engine development. There is reason why engine is probable most strongest part of whole program with new weapons too. And reason is quite logical.

You can use them on other fighters regardless of Su-57. If Su-57 tech couldn't be applied on anything else it would have same fate as MiG-42.


I think something is lost in translation here. the Engine is the most IMPORTANT part of this program because Su-57 will never reach its full potential without it, and the other reasons you give-- however it is the WEAKEST part of the program in the sense that it is years behind the development of the aircraft. Which is my point.

This program has been an absolutely hilarious look at so many bold claims made 10 years ago colliding with reality.

Turns out its REALLY hard to develop a next generation fighter and propulsion system.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 11:09
by element1loop
XanderCrews wrote:This program has been an absolutely hilarious look at so many bold claims made 10 years ago colliding with reality. Turns out its REALLY hard to develop a next generation fighter and propulsion system.


You forget, it was developed and tested in the crucible of battle over Syria.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 12:51
by babybat{}.net
From 19th Session of the Joint Algerian-Russian Intergovernmental Commission for Military-Technical Cooperation..

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 17:36
by mixelflick
I wonder if any country in their right mind would buy it given its needed engine is still in development. Personally, I'd buy the SU-35 before the SU-57 at this point. At least you'd get a combat capable airframe, established weapons and a powerful radar.

It's never going to be an F-15EX, QA or even SA. But for a country like Egypt for example, it's probably the best they can do (considering the US won't sell them F-15's, or even AIM-120's to arm their Vipers)...

Milosh: You either have some inside information we aren't privy to, or otherwise have an otherworldly knowledge as to the state of Russian fighter engines. Personally, I think it's the former. Only that would explain how you can keep track of all these AL-31, 41, 51 etc sub-types, which airframes they fit into and where they are in the developmental cycle. I can see the truth in some of your posts, but its questionable in others. Very hard to figure out what's really going on..

As for the topic at hand: I don't think Algeria is going to purchase SU-57's without its final engines, especially for the asking price. It's not like those new engines are going to be cheap either, whenever they're ready. I generally admire what the Russians do given their limitations, but the constant lipstick they put on this pig has grown tiresome. I love the airframe, it's beautiful IMO. But it's not a real stealth fighter, and that's how they're portraying (and pricing) it..

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 18:32
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:I think something is lost in translation here. the Engine is the most IMPORTANT part of this program because Su-57 will never reach its full potential without it, and the other reasons you give-- however it is the WEAKEST part of the program in the sense that it is years behind the development of the aircraft. Which is my point.

This program has been an absolutely hilarious look at so many bold claims made 10 years ago colliding with reality.

Turns out its REALLY hard to develop a next generation fighter and propulsion system.


I never said it would be easy, or what propaganda is saying is true. In fact in early 2010s I ready interview with academic Victor Chepkin, he was back then leading Saturn constructor, and he was critical about Kremlin expectation new engine will be ready soon just because funds aren't problem now.

Re: Algeria to purchase Su-57

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 08:49
by Corsair1963
No Middle East Nation Interested in Russia's Su-57 Jet

February 22, 2021

Russia’s Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation has revealed that no country from the Middle East showed interest in the Su-57 jet at the ongoing IDEX-2021 event.

“Requests were received concerning the Su-57E aircraft, although there are no Middle East countries among them. Nevertheless, foreign customers of this region show interest in this airplane as well,” an official spokesman of the Service was quoted as saying by TASS today.

While Israel already operates steathy F-35 jets, Su-57’s rival, the U.A.E. is close to ordering them. Washington has approved the sale of these jets along with MQ-9 drones to the country. With the Israel-U.A.E. peace deal being hammered out, a deal is on the cards. Saudi Arabia is also reportedly seeking F-35s.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/29024 ... DYEYlj_rZF