Su-57 Felon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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f-16adf

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Unread post12 Dec 2020, 16:50

Thank you Spaz for this pdf.
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milosh

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Unread post12 Dec 2020, 18:11

mixelflick wrote:It really is amazing to see how far they've taken this. To date however, they haven't come up with anything that can out-run/out-corner an AIM-9x...


And purpose of those two small transparent spheres on Felon:
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foun ... jajd01.jpg

is?
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charlielima223

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Unread post12 Dec 2020, 18:39

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:It really is amazing to see how far they've taken this. To date however, they haven't come up with anything that can out-run/out-corner an AIM-9x...


And purpose of those two small transparent spheres on Felon:
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foun ... jajd01.jpg

is?


A trade off between defensive measures and stealth. I believe Russian and Sukhoi engineers/designers never put much stock in stealth. Instead of making the most stealthy aircraft they can (like F-22, F-35, and perhaps J-20) they went with, "stealthy enough". Honestly I would be impressed if the Su-57 comes close to F-117 levels or RCS.
Last edited by charlielima223 on 12 Dec 2020, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
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charlielima223

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Unread post12 Dec 2020, 18:51

mixelflick wrote:Military watch found something new to write about the SU-57.... super duper maneuverability.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... noeuvrable

They are really doubling down on the "dogfight isn't dead" thing, which isn't surprising IMO. They know it isn't nearly as stealthy as the F-35, so they're loading it with laser defense, all kinds of EW/IR spoofing gear etc. and.... praying they make it to the merge.

It really is amazing to see how far they've taken this. To date however, they haven't come up with anything that can out-run/out-corner an AIM-9x...


Impressive for airshows but what has it done beside that? I've maintained for a while now that the Su-57 has become no more than a vanity show case piece for the RuAF. I find it entertaining how the common PAKFA Su-58 fanboys on the interwebs point to airshow footage and mention a 3 day "deployment" to Syria as signs of progress when they are questioned of the capabilities of the aircraft.

I believe the "dogfight" has changed. While most people think of the dogfight as that post merge turn and burn, Boyd EM chart determines everything, Top Gun I feel the need for speed, etc. I believe the new "dogfight" starts once that initial encounter begins, rathers its becoming more of a game of chess.
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milosh

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Unread post12 Dec 2020, 22:27

charlielima223 wrote:A trade off between defensive measures and stealth. I believe Russian and Sukhoi engineers/designers never put much stock in stealth. Instead of making the most stealthy aircraft they can (like F-22, F-35, and perhaps J-20) they went with, "stealthy enough". Honestly I would be impressed if the Su-57 comes close to F-117 levels or RCS.


Well IR AAMs are only really useful AAMs against VLO targets.

This is why future AAMs all have dual seekers, Peregrine missile have dual seeker, some sources mentioned PL-15 also have dual seeker.

So DIRCM will be lot more important for VLO fighters then for non VLO fighters.

Russians and Su-57? Well it isn't vanity project because in 2010s they got similar number of Su-35 as they plan to get Su-57 in 2020s.

Russia isn't Soviet Union so they can't get huge number of fighters as in cold war. Orders are lot smaller now. Even Su-35 which is best bang for buck (less then 30millions) isn't get in huge numbers.

Just look how many MiG-31, SU get in 1980s (over 500!) and that plane was in that period probable most expensive fighter in world if you look size (tons of titanium and very exotic aluminium alloys) fuel, and electronics under hood.
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charlielima223

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Unread post16 Dec 2020, 21:06

milosh wrote:
Well IR AAMs are only really useful AAMs against VLO targets.

This is why future AAMs all have dual seekers, Peregrine missile have dual seeker, some sources mentioned PL-15 also have dual seeker.

So DIRCM will be lot more important for VLO fighters then for non VLO fighters.

Russians and Su-57? Well it isn't vanity project because in 2010s they got similar number of Su-35 as they plan to get Su-57 in 2020s.

Russia isn't Soviet Union so they can't get huge number of fighters as in cold war. Orders are lot smaller now. Even Su-35 which is best bang for buck (less then 30millions) isn't get in huge numbers.

Just look how many MiG-31, SU get in 1980s (over 500!) and that plane was in that period probable most expensive fighter in world if you look size (tons of titanium and very exotic aluminium alloys) fuel, and electronics under hood.


Dual seeker AAMs could be a big advantage. However what good is having a dual seeker AAM if they cant take shots at extended or BVR distances? I think the best solution is better connectivity between aircraft and weapons. An AAM getting fed targeting information from datalinks from multiple aircraft can lead to some very dicey situations for the intended target.

I point to my comment on why I believe the Su-57 is a vanity project. Almost everything that comes out about it is mostly propaganda. Progress is slow and its claims are often very lofty. Most videos available to public are airshow footage. It does some really cool aerobatic maneuvers to wow the crowd but it doesnt do anything else. F-35s are becoming operational with more units and have been actively deployed as well as taken part in some large scale complex scenarios. All we get about the Su-57 is airshow footage and snippets from state controlled media. They only intend to get 76 aircraft. For an airforce as large as the RuAF, that is a very small force.
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juretrn

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Unread post16 Dec 2020, 22:12

milosh wrote:Even Su-35 ... (less then 30millions)

Most sources I read state a price at least twice that, and on average 100 million for export.
24 A/C for China - 2.5 billion, 24 A/C for Egypt 2 billion
Russia stronk
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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 01:59

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:
Well IR AAMs are only really useful AAMs against VLO targets.

This is why future AAMs all have dual seekers, Peregrine missile have dual seeker, some sources mentioned PL-15 also have dual seeker.

So DIRCM will be lot more important for VLO fighters then for non VLO fighters.

Russians and Su-57? Well it isn't vanity project because in 2010s they got similar number of Su-35 as they plan to get Su-57 in 2020s.

Russia isn't Soviet Union so they can't get huge number of fighters as in cold war. Orders are lot smaller now. Even Su-35 which is best bang for buck (less then 30millions) isn't get in huge numbers.

Just look how many MiG-31, SU get in 1980s (over 500!) and that plane was in that period probable most expensive fighter in world if you look size (tons of titanium and very exotic aluminium alloys) fuel, and electronics under hood.


Dual seeker AAMs could be a big advantage. However what good is having a dual seeker AAM if they cant take shots at extended or BVR distances? I think the best solution is better connectivity between aircraft and weapons. An AAM getting fed targeting information from datalinks from multiple aircraft can lead to some very dicey situations for the intended target.

I point to my comment on why I believe the Su-57 is a vanity project. Almost everything that comes out about it is mostly propaganda. Progress is slow and its claims are often very lofty. Most videos available to public are airshow footage. It does some really cool aerobatic maneuvers to wow the crowd but it doesnt do anything else. F-35s are becoming operational with more units and have been actively deployed as well as taken part in some large scale complex scenarios. All we get about the Su-57 is airshow footage and snippets from state controlled media. They only intend to get 76 aircraft. For an airforce as large as the RuAF, that is a very small force.


Which, is why I've speculated that the Chinese J-31 "could" be an option. As it is hard to see the RuAF with only 76 under performing Su-57's in 2030. While, the world at large has thousands of Stealth Fighters.

This in fact would relegate the RuAF to a third rate status.....
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milosh

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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 10:05

juretrn wrote:
milosh wrote:Even Su-35 ... (less then 30millions)

Most sources I read state a price at least twice that, and on average 100 million for export.
24 A/C for China - 2.5 billion, 24 A/C for Egypt 2 billion


Export yes but you have domestic orders with price in rubles it is below 30 millions.
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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 10:10

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:They only intend to get 76 aircraft. For an airforce as large as the RuAF, that is a very small force.


They have around 90 Su-35. RuAF is going to have around 700 fighters so 76 of Su57 isn't that small. Also they can order more Su57 if they are pleased with plane.
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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 10:27

milosh wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:They only intend to get 76 aircraft. For an airforce as large as the RuAF, that is a very small force.


They have around 90 Su-35. RuAF is going to have around 700 fighters so 76 of Su57 isn't that small. Also they can order more Su57 if they are pleased with plane.


:lmao:
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milosh

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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 13:47

What is funny? They don't want to go down as USSR did. USA on other hand is on excellent track to go like user in 1991. Do you really think your debt can rise forever?
Last edited by milosh on 17 Dec 2020, 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 15:30

milosh wrote: Do you really think your debt can rise forever?


Typically what is referred to as National Debt should rise forever simply because most of what a government puts into its economy never comes back (via Taxation) and stays in the economy (savings pensions etc etc). A country with its own sovereign currency doesn't really borrow from anywhere but itself basically - so it isn't a case that the debt is owed to some other entity as some try to make out - Government finances are not like household finances at all.
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outlaw162

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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 16:58

Tell that to the Greeks and the SSA.

Until the consequences of going beyond the notional 77% tipping point (US is already) affect you personally, true that 'confidence' in fiscal policy can remain somewhat artificially high. Keep the breeding rate up and the Ponzi pyramid is reinforced....however eventually from breeding (not soon enough to bother me however :D ) the natural resources run out. Water for example. :shock:
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Unread post17 Dec 2020, 17:54

Yes available resource does seem to be a major factor in controlling flow into the economy. I don't know how you get round the debt though because there will always be a national debt and because typically the only way it is payed off is via taxes it must always keep rising shirley - the gov would have to ban savings, pensions, bonds etc to get most of it back.

The UK for example supposedly last paid it off in 1650 or something stupid like that :D

What I am saying - or what I am parroting from economics professors is that the size of the debt doesn't necessarily mean impending doom especially when you see what it is made up of. Some of these guys argue that calling this debt in the first place is nothing but a political choice!

Greece looked to have had economic issues and may have told a few little lies to get in the EU club in the hope that it would sort themselves out - and this may have been working up to 2008. They were dependent on the Central European bank bailing them out having given up their currency - how much this affected things compared to other countries that could put in their own Quantitative Easing cant say - they may have bailed out the private banking sector at least. :P


Sorry this is way OT back OT I think
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