Chengdu J-20 Weilong ('Fagin')

[weasel1962]

CASI write up on J-20 radar.
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/CASI/D ... esa-radar/

summarized into "40mile range advantage over F-35...maybe".

[ricnunes]

Then you came and start arguing with me, trying to prove it is impossible J-35 carry four 500kg jdams equivalent

And it doesn't, so my point still stands.

Also I really don't give much what you think or I think when we have official infographics were we see four slender bombs which do look like bomb I found and have same weight.

So J-35 by official info is able to carry four long 500kg glide bombs.

Btw Russian grom-e1 is slender bomb and still carry bigger payload then FAB-500 even though it do have wings and small rocket engine, its weight is less then 600kg if I remember right.

So infographics is quite logical and it is official not something from some fan boy.

The bomb in the image you shared doesn't seem to have nothing to do with the Grom-E1 or even Grom-E1. These "Groms" are bigger and bulkier than the Chinese bomb your previously shown.

I don't believe so a second the J-35 can carry 4 bombs of the same classe as a GBU-32 JDAM - and I'm also skeptical about carrying 4 of those Chinese bombs unless they are lighter than you imagine - and it wouldn't be the first time that Chinese, not to mention Russians lie (exaggerate) about their capabilities. As such the one who often comes with as a "fan boy" is you who believes in everything that the Chinese and Russians say. If they said that Unicorns existed you would immediately believe in it and would be the first one to post here. So look yourself at the mirror before calling someone a "fan boy"

If you want, I do agree with you J-35 can't carry four 1000lb jdam bombs but I never wrote it can. I don't even understand how we got to that, maybe someone wrote something like that before and I didn't saw that, I was only explaining 500kg weapon don't need to be 500kg fat bomb.

There's you go. You see, what you wrote above was totally unnecessary, wasn't it?

About RD-93/33 and F-135, no way they are same diameter. Something is wrong, I would say RD-33 or chinese equivalent diameter is max engine diameter (for example with additional equipment) while F-135 diameter is max inlet diameter.

If we check RD-33 max inlet it is 730 mm, but max engine diameter is 1040mm (by AI Overview)

I NEVER SAID that both engines has the same diameter, FFS!
What I said is that the COMBINED DIAMETER of TWO J-35 engines IS BIGGER than the DIAMETER of ONE F-35 engine! Get it now or do I need to draw it for you?

[milosh]

You did make conclusion that RD-93 is similar diamater as F135 based on disconnectialradical numbers and I just point out that F-135 diameter isn't really same as RD-93, in fact it is surely noticeable wider and gave explantion why is that.

Btw I never said Grom-E1 is same as chinese 501 bomb. I said Grom-E1 carries more tnt then KAB-500, as example that you can have long and "narrow" bomb which carry even more tnt then short and thick bomb.

So if you use that analogy and much better manufacturing capability of Chinese 501 bomb which is 500kg heavy carry at least similar amount of tnt as KAB-500.

I need to be honest, maybe I am wrong informed about GBU-32, maybe it have 1000lbs of tnt so bomb is in fact is heavier then 1000lbs

I know that soviet/russian and chinese bombs weight is total weight of bomb not weight of tnt. Maybe that is why we have:

[disconnectedradical]

Moreover, there are other measures besides volume that affect this "equation" even more like for example diameter!
Using your own measurement example, you can see that the J-35 engine diameter is almost the same or very close to the F-35 engine diameter. This means that in width the J-35 twin engine arrangement will almost be twice the F-35 single engine arrangement and since the J-35 is somehow smaller aircraft (smaller than the F-22 and around the size class of the F-35) you probably won't have space to wrap fuel tanks around the engines like in the F-35.
...
Resuming: for a similar thrust output, a twin engine arrangement should always take up more space then a single engine one and even more so when the single engine efficiency is ahead/superior than the twin engine setting which is clearly the case here!

No, if you want to go down this path then frontal area is more important than simple diameter, and using max diameter is not accurate because they include projections like the gearbox and accessories that usually only stick out on one side and otherwise don't contribute to frontal area. The way the RD-33 has the gearbox mounted on top adds quite a bit to the max projection diameter but not so much to overall frontal area.

Since flow geometries for low-bypass fighter turbofan engines are generally similar, most accurate to compare frontal area based on intake diameter. While WS-21 is a distant derivative of RD-33 with 28.7 inch intake diameter, don't know if the fan diameter increased for higher thrust. So let's compare something like 2x F414 with a 31 inch intake diameter with 1x F135 with 43 inch intake diameter since they generate about the same amount of thrust, the former takes up 1,849 square inches of frontal area and latter take up 1,922 square inches of frontal area, so 2x F414 has 4% more frontal area than 1x F135, although it also generates a bit more thrust. On the other hand by engine weight alone, 2x F414 is less than 1x F135 although two engines will require more plumbing and accessories.

But point is, the space and weight differences between one large engine and two smaller engines isn't that significant, don't think it would be responsible for vast differences in range and other factors would be more important.

[hornetfinn]

CASI write up on J-20 radar.
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/CASI/D ... esa-radar/

summarized into "40mile range advantage over F-35...maybe".

Yeah, there are far too many unknowns in both AN/APG-81 and whatever the radar in J-20 is called to make any kind of factual comparison. It would be easy if both had the same T/R modules, same radar architecture, signal processing hardware and software, cooling, power generation etc. In that case J-20 would have the advantage one-on-one as it's the bigger aircraft with likely larger radar aperture. Because we don't know anything really besides the T/R module count in AN/APG-81, it's basically just speculation.

But overall decent writeup given these limitations. There is definitely an effort to both find some actual information and they do state some critical remarks on Chinese sources. J-20 definitely has potential to be serious opponet for F-22 and F-35.

Good thing AN/APG-85 is just about to become operational. I'm totally convinced that it will give F-35 significant edge over anything else flying operationally, including J-20 and even F-22 (until it gets upgraded with same tech). F-47 will naturally most likely be superior when it becomes operatioanl.

[viperzerof-2]

Not much but basics of Chinese AESA

JF-17

“The KLJ-7A active phased array radar antenna is 550 mm in diameter, and about 1,000 T/R modules can be installed, and the radar peak power can reach 12 kilowatts, the average power is not less than 4 kilowatts,”

https://m.sohu.com/a/515620893_12111897 ... e_vignette

[weasel1962]

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/op ... -gen-j-20s

Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome to this Janes online intelligence briefing titled 'Mighty Dragon: China's Expanding Fleet of Next Generation J-20 Fighter Aircraft'.

My name is Akhil and I'm the senior Asia Pacific air journalist in Janes.

Data and analysis in this presentation are sourced from recently published articles written by myself and separately by Prasobh Narayanan, senior analyst for aero-engines in Janes. This presentation looks closely at China's Chengdu J-20 fifth-generation stealth fighter and how the People's Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF, is acquiring growing numbers of this aircraft.

Before we get into detail, the basic agenda for this webinar is as follows.

I'll reveal the evolution of the J-20 stealth fighter, how many aircraft the PLAAF has inducted, and some of the capabilities of the platform.

The presentation will then reveal where China is deploying these aircraft and the implications this has for regional security.

And in the last section I will talk about how China's advances in engine technology are also driving increased production of the J-20.

The J-20 is a fifth-generation multirole fighter aircraft developed by Chengdu in China. Development began in the late 1990s. The design was finalised in 2008. The first flight occurred in 2011 and the aircraft entered service in 2017.

The J-20 forms a core component of China's ambitions to project power beyond the first island chain, while exercising capability in theory to match that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter.

The initial roll-out of the aircraft was limited. As of early 2022 it was thought that China had just 40 aircraft in service. However, deliveries appear to have increased from late 2022. Over 11 months, from July 2023 to May 2024, the PLAAF inducted more than 70 J-20s according to Janes assessments made using satellite imagery.

The PLAAF itself has said that it began inducting steady numbers of the aircraft from September 2022. Initial production of the type was used to replace second and third generation, and obsolete, I might add, J-11s and Sukhoi SU-27-SK/UKBs. Janes assesses that the service is currently operating approximately 195 J-20s. This map shows all 12 known PLAAF air brigades currently equipped with the J-20 and operational in China. Several units also operate older fourth- and third-generation aircraft. As you can see on the map, these are likely to be retired in favour of additional J-20s going forward.

According to Janes Satellite Imagery Analysis up to July of 2023, the PLAAF operated at least eight air brigades with varied numbers of J-20s, including two training units, the 172nd and 176th Air Brigades. Of course, of the eight, one brigade was wholly equipped with the type. As of May 2024 however, the total number of air brigades operating J-20s rose to 12 air brigades that we currently know about, out of which three air brigades are wholly equipped with the type. This again reflects the PLAAF's plan to eventually replace its older aircraft with either the J-20 or the multirole Shenyang J-16, which is a 4. 5-generation aircraft. These are the four air brigades recently equipped with J-20s.

Their deployment location shows where China is seeking to strengthen fifth-generation air power. For example, take Southern Theater Command which exercises power over the South China Sea. This theatre command operated just one air brigade with J-20s up to 2023. However, Janes Satellite Imagery Analysis assesses that the PLAAF's fourth air brigade, located at Foshan near China's South Coast, could also be converting to J-20s. The J-20s appear to have replaced the brigade's erstwhile contingent of Russian origin Sukhoi 27s. A second air brigade and its theatre command, possibly the 54th Air Brigade, could also be inducting J-20s. Janes has identified several serial numbers on J-20s associated with this air brigade.

Meanwhile, the remit of the PLA's Eastern Theater Command, or ETC, covers Southeastern China, including the financial hub of Shanghai, the East China Sea, and the Taiwan Strait. Now, this theatre command regularly conducts aerial operations around Taiwan and projects air power towards the Western Pacific and Japan. In 2023 a unit in Eastern Theater Command, the 41st Air Brigade, began receiving J-20s. At least six J-20s were observed in satellite imagery dated November 2023. The new J-20s could replace the older Shenyang J-11As and J-11BS aircraft operated by this brigade. The unit could also potentially add some Shenyang J-16 multirole combat aircraft. Eastern Theater Command already operated two brigades of J-20s up to 2023, including the 8th Air Brigade and the 9th Air Brigade, which is the PLAAF's oldest J-20 operator. According to state-owned media, the 9th Air Brigade inducted its first J-20 in 2019. The influx of additional J- 20s into Eastern Theatre Command appears to be encouraging the PLAAF to operate the type more frequently. Chinese state-owned media again says that J-20s in Eastern Theatre Command conducted drills around Taiwan in May 2024 during the PLA's Exercise 'Joint Sword 2024'. Meanwhile, on China's western areas in Western Theater Command, this force had just one air brigade with J-20s up to 2023. However, a second air brigade, the 97th Air Brigade, is now inducting J-20s. China is expected to add additional improvements to the J-20 going forward. The programme is also expected to benefit future Chinese stealth aircraft projects such as the J-31 and J-35, which are expected to enter service with the PLA Navy.

If China succeeds in maturing the WS-15 engine and improving the thrust-to-weight ratio of its WS-10 series of engines, it will eliminate its dependence on Russian engines for domestically developed combat aircraft. This will almost certainly allow Chengdu to produce greater numbers of the J-20 for the PLAAF. This has implications for the balance of military power in the region. However, greater production of the J-20 is also possibly limited by cost. The unit price of the J-20 is approximately USD110 million. However, China's growing defence budget is expected to support additional procurement of this aircraft. The chart that has just appeared shows China's proposed and total defence budget for 2024, amounting to USD232 billion, according to official state media. This figure includes both the official budget announced by Beijing and elements non-declared.

The new expenditure represents a nominal year-on-year increase of 7.2%, the same rate of growth announced in 2023. China's continued induction of J-20s could also lead to the United States and its allies to deploy larger forces of US F-35s in the region. The J-20 could also drive regional countries such as Japan, South Korea, and India to hasten their fifth- and sixth-generation fighter aircraft projects.

[test1979]

The 300th J-20 appeared at the Changchun Air Force Festival, and the total number this year is expected to exceed 400

CB10300, aka from Batch 10 & the 300th J-20 in total!

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/chinas-30 ... alth-jets/

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

I thought newer models had a longer hump behind the cockpit?

[disconnectedradical]

I thought newer models had a longer hump behind the cockpit?

This is one of the last ones of the legacy J-20 design, which now numbers just over 300 based on batch and production markings.

The newer J-20A with the longer jump is just entering production now, although still without the WS-15 for the time being, with the nozzles indicating an improved WS-10C.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification.

[nike77]

Will the J-20A be capaable of carrying six PL-15s?

[weasel1962]

The talk on the ground is that the PLAAF redesigned a smaller form factor folding fins missile (with increased range) designated PL-16 to allow 6 missile carriage (in place of PL15) for their stealth fighters including the J-20. These are at present unconfirmed reports.

[tdd]

Why don’t the Chinese cover or smooth out the panel seams on their fifth-generation fighter jets?

[disconnectedradical]

A good quality photo of twin-seat J-20S. I must say the longer canopy makes it look a lot more proportional and aesthetic than the basic J-20 especially from the side.