Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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charlielima223

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Unread post09 Aug 2020, 11:15

Here is a little more on the matter...
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/08/06 ... ification/

The Japanese Minister of Defense, Taro Kono, stated on 31 July that the Ministry of Defense was looking into the drafting of a framework agreement for international collaboration for the development of the successor to the F-2 (also known as the F-X or F-3), with the United States and United Kingdom described as potential candidates for collaboration.

During remarks to the media, the minister noted that two main points of contention for the framework agreement would be the guaranteeing of freedom of modification of the resulting aircraft, as well as a means to keep development costs low. Japan will be leading overall development, with the goal of mass-producing the aircraft by fiscal year 2031, in advance of the planned retirement of the F-2 in fiscal 2035.
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More recently, Japan’s bid to become an F-35 development partner following Turkey’s expulsion was rebuffed, ostensibly due to the end of the development phrase on the F-35. Despite this, Japan recently had its $23.11 billion purchase of 63 F-35As and 42 F-35Bs approved, the second largest US Foreign Military Sale to date. Additionally, the Japanese government recently reiterated its commitment to F-35 assembly in Japan, after initial reports late last yearsuggested that it would be reversing its decision to import aircraft from the US instead of local final assembly.

While the Japanese government states that improvements to the assembly process make aircraft assembled at the Nagoya FACO cheaper than aircraft imported, it is impossible to deny the importance of Japanese industrial interests to the decision, particularly gaining experience on assembling and maintaining stealth aircraft. What they didn’t get from the F-35 program, they’re almost certain to try again with F-X, something any prospective partner is likely to keep in mind.
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mixelflick

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Unread post10 Aug 2020, 17:42

63 F-35As and 42 F-35Bs

What a nice, balanced force. I predict they're going to so like the aircraft, they'll buy more. Especially if there are delays and budgetary concerns with their F-3 program (and you know there will be). They are absolutely right to split the buy 60/40, especially considering how close they are to Russia, China and let's not forget N. Korea. Too many airfields in danger of being wiped out FAST, and there's a whole lotta real estate there to cover. Given that and other considerations, their carriers with F-35B's certainly make sense..

I hope the Royal Navy and RAF are watching. They don't have the same proximity concerns and do field the F-35B, but the A still has a lot to offer (especially if deployed in support of NATO). Theoretically the B will be based closer to the front lines and capable of still striking deep into enemy territory, but I wonder how "close" to the front anyone fielding the F-35 is willing to get. The USMC? Sure. But if your country only has a small number of F-35's, how close are you going to be willing to base them?

Interesting question IMO...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 07:17

mixelflick wrote:63 F-35As and 42 F-35Bs

What a nice, balanced force. I predict they're going to so like the aircraft, they'll buy more. Especially if there are delays and budgetary concerns with their F-3 program (and you know there will be). They are absolutely right to split the buy 60/40, especially considering how close they are to Russia, China and let's not forget N. Korea. Too many airfields in danger of being wiped out FAST, and there's a whole lotta real estate there to cover. Given that and other considerations, their carriers with F-35B's certainly make sense..

I hope the Royal Navy and RAF are watching. They don't have the same proximity concerns and do field the F-35B, but the A still has a lot to offer (especially if deployed in support of NATO). Theoretically the B will be based closer to the front lines and capable of still striking deep into enemy territory, but I wonder how "close" to the front anyone fielding the F-35 is willing to get. The USMC? Sure. But if your country only has a small number of F-35's, how close are you going to be willing to base them?

Interesting question IMO...


Actually, Japan is buying 105 F-35A's and 42 F-35B's. Yet, I agree future orders for the type are likely!

Honestly, they should just scrap the F-15J upgrades and just buy more F-35A's. Especially, with the threat from China.....

The F-35 is very much an "equalizer"..... :twisted:
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madrat

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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 13:20

Forget China for a minute. Imagine Russia's reaction to Japan with such a large force on its doorstep!
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element1loop

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Unread post12 Aug 2020, 05:11

madrat wrote:Forget China for a minute. Imagine Russia's reaction to Japan with such a large force on its doorstep!


You forget, they have Su35, we're screwed.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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hythelday

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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 08:24

British firm aims to assist Japanese stealth fighter project
By George Allison, 5 November 2020

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... r-project/

The response to the RFI, which was issued by the JMOD’s Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Agency, outlines technical capabilities across a range of key areas, which BAE Systems can offer into supporting development of the F-X programme.

Andy Latham, Campaign Delivery Director – Japan, for BAE Systems’ Air business, said:

“We firmly believe that we can add significant value to the F-X programme. We look forward to further progressing our discussions and we are honoured to have the opportunity to collaborate with Japan on this programme..."
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 13:29

So with this knowledge then BAE will be partnering with them.... does this mean LM is out?

Hard to see those two parties working effectively together, but I suppose its possible. Still, is there any precedent for this kind of BAE/British-Japanese cooperation, at least on a defense project???
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 19:02

mixelflick wrote:So with this knowledge then BAE will be partnering with them.... does this mean LM is out?

Hard to see those two parties working effectively together, but I suppose its possible. Still, is there any precedent for this kind of BAE/British-Japanese cooperation, at least on a defense project???


I think Brits helped Japs in T-2/F-1 development.
Last edited by milosh on 06 Nov 2020, 19:29, edited 3 times in total.
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marauder2048

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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 19:20

mixelflick wrote:So with this knowledge then BAE will be partnering with them.... does this mean LM is out?

Hard to see those two parties working effectively together, but I suppose its possible. Still, is there any precedent for this kind of BAE/British-Japanese cooperation, at least on a defense project???


They've just responded to the RFI. Nothing more.
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Unread post12 Dec 2020, 21:30

https://isic-japan.org/event/f-x-program-progresses/

This article shows what Japan wants from their F-X. Something with much greater persistence and more missiles than the F-22, rather than raw performance.
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tequilashooter

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Unread post14 Dec 2020, 01:29

Article came out today.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. (MHI) is expected to receive technical assistance from Lockheed Martin Corp. to develop a new fighter jet for the Air Self-Defense Force, government and ruling coalition officials said Friday.

Lockheed Martin, the maker of the F-35 stealth jet, is likely to join the fighter project as a subcontractor for the Japanese company, the officials said.

Specifically, the U.S. defense contractor is expected to provide MHI with technical assistance to do with an integrated radar and missile system as well as improving the plane’s mobility and stealth, the officials said.

The new fighter, which is known as the F-3 or F-X and is expected to cost around $40 billion (about ¥4.16 trillion), will replace Japan’s F-2, which was jointly developed by MHI and Lockheed more than two decades ago. The Defense Ministry plans to start deploying the new jet in 2035, when it begins to retire F-2s.

The ministry has asked for ¥77.2 billion in budget outlays for the project for fiscal 2021, which begins in April.

Japan has said it will announce the names of foreign companies invited to join the project before the end of the year.

Firms that have expressed interest in participating include F-18 Super Hornet builder Boeing Co. and Northrop Grumman Corp. from the United States, as well as Britain’s BAE Systems PLC and Rolls Royce Holdings PLC.

Source: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/ ... ghter-jet/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post14 Dec 2020, 04:36

Maybe I am wrong but hard seeing Japan going it alone on a 6th Generation Fighter Program. As she is struggling just to modernize today. In some small hope of maintaining an adequate level of deterrents towards China.


I still believe she will join a foreign 6th Generation Fighter Program at some point. Likely, one of the US Programs...


IMHO
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element1loop

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Unread post15 Dec 2020, 02:34

Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe I am wrong but hard seeing Japan going it alone on a 6th Generation Fighter Program. As she is struggling just to modernize today. In some small hope of maintaining an adequate level of deterrents towards China. I still believe she will join a foreign 6th Generation Fighter Program at some point. Likely, one of the US Programs... IMHO


Only if one presumes they want what USAF or USN wants. Which is fairly unlikely.

If they prioritize a deep-strike light-'bomber', that carries 8 cruise weapons, and 16,000 lb of internal payload, and massive fuel fraction, what they require may strongly diverge with what a US NGAD, or a '6th-gen' development produces. A PCA type may be similar, but all that talk is of a mix of platforms. Allies mostly won't want that.

Indeed Japan, European countries and Australia could use a long-range fast 5th-gen deep-strike jet, far more than a 6th-gen F-22A replacement. Everyone's happy for the USAF to go after that, but Allies want to hit stuff on the presumption they may be on their own in a real fight, where USAF is tied up elsewhere for 12 months or so, or is so degraded it can't help that much.

This is the likely thinking behind most Allied 5th-gen efforts, so don't expect them to converge on common aircraft designs with the US force structure. They have done that a lot, but they also need to diverge to create the force-structures they need, sans a real bomber.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Dec 2020, 05:37

element1loop wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe I am wrong but hard seeing Japan going it alone on a 6th Generation Fighter Program. As she is struggling just to modernize today. In some small hope of maintaining an adequate level of deterrents towards China. I still believe she will join a foreign 6th Generation Fighter Program at some point. Likely, one of the US Programs... IMHO


Only if one presumes they want what USAF or USN wants. Which is fairly unlikely.

If they prioritize a deep-strike light-'bomber', that carries 8 cruise weapons, and 16,000 lb of internal payload, and massive fuel fraction, what they require may strongly diverge with what a US NGAD, or a '6th-gen' development produces. A PCA type may be similar, but all that talk is of a mix of platforms. Allies mostly won't want that.

Indeed Japan, European countries and Australia could use a long-range fast 5th-gen deep-strike jet, far more than a 6th-gen F-22A replacement. Everyone's happy for the USAF to go after that, but Allies want to hit stuff on the presumption they may be on their own in a real fight, where USAF is tied up elsewhere for 12 months or so, or is so degraded it can't help that much.

This is the likely thinking behind most Allied 5th-gen efforts, so don't expect them to converge on common aircraft designs with the US force structure. They have done that a lot, but they also need to diverge to create the force-structures they need, sans a real bomber.


Really, fairly unlikely..... :|

The F-22 was canceled at just 187 aircraft. While, the F-35 had multiple partners and vast numbers. In order to drive down it's price and make it somewhat affordable!

Now you think the US can develop not one but two 6th Generation Fighter Program independently and with no partners???

Also, Japan is in debt up to their eyeballs. Having a hard time modernizing their existing armed forces. This with no experience developing a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter. Let alone a 6th Generation one....

Hell, considering the cost and numbers produced in the Typhoon (EuroFighter) and Rafale Fighter Programs. Makes you wonder. If, the case for the forthcoming Tempest and FCAS is any better??? That is considering the competition and the likely decline of orders in the coming decades!

Honestly, sounds like a big stretch....



It's also worth noting that the USN and USAF 6th Generation Designs. Likely, will be considerably different. So, my guess is one will be close enough to the needs of Japan. In order to form a partnership....

With the possible exception of China. Hard to see anybody really going it alone???
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Dec 2020, 05:50

My guess is that the USN will be late to the 6th gen party.
They are robbing peter to pay paul to out build the Chinese there is not money for an exquisite aircraft program. I believe that when the F-35C is deeply entrenched that the F-35 will become what the Super Hornet is today
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