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Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post19 Mar 2021, 14:28

linkomart wrote:Fans in a nutshell. Doesn't matter wich "side" they are on.


best regards.


I'll disagree. Thanks to the US having more open and publicly reported programs we tend to get "Warts and all" reporting and more data both good and bad. Saab won't even share flyaway costs publicly.

You can't find data on the Gripen E official costs line by line, or even the announcement of foreign sales that the US has that outline everything in the deal and the estimated costs. Hell we had Poland specifically spelling out who would pay for transporting their f-35s there.

No one can even tell you what a Gripen costs, but they echo "$4,700 CPFH" endlessly, based on a sponsored study that got every other number wrong. That should never have happened. Gripen E is the least known airplane going right now in the west, short of classified US programs. I've had to hear for 15 years all the things it will do as if it has already done them. Watching the fans speak about the future as if it was the past was spellbinding, and infuriating.

So in conclusion, the Gripen NG or "E" as they call it now, has had such a long development time with so little to show so far, its almost entirely hearsay, rumors, and conjecture based on other hearsay, rumors, and conjecture not backed by publickly available data, and to top it off, we get the occasion "press release" from saab where they giggle on about an EW version, a Carrier version, an unmmaned version, an updated engine, and various other things that are nothing more than talk

Saab marketing targets a certain kind of demographic, and its not an accident.

saab is so good on the public relations and marketing front the aircraft has barely been able to keep up.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post21 Mar 2021, 03:57

"...saab is so good on the public relations and marketing front the aircraft has barely been able to keep up."
:applause: :twisted: :mrgreen: THAT! tickled my funny bone. :devil: :D :lmao:
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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loke

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Unread post22 Mar 2021, 18:31

In a new petition sent to ST, Lula's technical defense reveals that Lava Jato curitiba knowingly created false complaint about the purchase of fab fighters, exposing to U.S. agencies strategic national security data. The typical action of lese pátria, which aimed to obtain financial advantage, via the USA, sought to involve even Boeing in the case.

The complaint was outsourced to the Federal Prosecutor's Office of Brasilia(MPF-DF), which later commissioned Curitiba with an armed testimony of the whistleblower Antônio Palocci. The messages also show use of threat to obtain denunciations and involvement of Judge Bonat, Moro's successor, with prosecutors.

"In fact, the new material analyzed shows that the "lava jato" decided to use the acquisition of the Swedish fighters Saab / Gripen, with the favorable opinion of the ArmedForces , to build a - absurd - complaint offered on 09.12.2016 before the Federal Court of Brasilia, which imputed to the Complainant the crimes of influence trafficking and international influence trafficking", points out the new petition.

According to Lula's defense,"this complaint was filed by the "lava jato de Curitiba" at least from August 2016 in the perspective of "HAVER AMERICAN INTEREST". The onslaught of prosecutors worked with the expectation of a formal action of that country "based on the fact that an American company was harmed in competition".

"The appalling dialogues show the full roadmap for the preparation of this silly denunciation, which involved the exposure of thousands of pages on material related to national security — which, according to the messages analyzed, may also have been submitted to the analysis of U.S. agencies," the petition warns.

The new messages also show, according to the petition, that the "task force" wanted to promote a new accusation against the complainant (Lula) at any cost, in line with what had been established in the "Lula's plan", already described and documented in messages already brought to the file (especially in the petition and preliminary report brought to the file on 1. 03.2021).

The desperate intention to build a new complaint against Lula also involved, without any novelty, the illegal action of some agents of the Internal Revenue Service, who sent members of the "task force" other tax information protected by legal secrecy, according to Lula's defense. In the end, members of the MPF of Brasilia came to subscribe to this complaint about the "fighters" even knowing the imprstability of the material prepared in Curitiba.

After holding 12 hearings, for the hearing of 31 witnesses – in addition to 11 people heard abroad – with all costs involved, in addition to the exposure of sensitive material about the country's Defense System, the aforementioned members of the MPF verified the obvious: they had no evidence of guilt to support the accusation.

In view of this, also according to the petition, they returned to the "task force", which, following the same recipe of Curitiba, suggested the extemporae a itiva of the whistleblower on duty Antônio Palocci, which effectively came to occur in the process in reference, as "witness of the judgment", granted by the Federal Court of Brasilia without knowledge of the whole plot revealed here, which , furthermore, confirms the authenticity of the material on screen.

The new messages also reinforce that the "task force" planned to use award-winning denunciations to embarrass Ministers of the Superior Courts -- requiring candidates to whistleblowers, outside their constitutional duties, to make references to the judges of the Superior Courts, president Lula's defense said. To this end, they applied the tactic of "emparadamento" of members of the Superior Courts, with the creation and leak of known false accusations in order to generate embarrassment to the auditing bodies of justice.


Machine translated from: https://pt.org.br/lava-jato-cometeu-cri ... a-de-lula/

The machine translation is not very good, it's difficult to appreciate the nuances in the text. However it seems there was a failed attempt at "framing" Lula, using the Gripen affair in Brazil(?)
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Unread post24 Mar 2021, 15:39

Four Pilots of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) carried out their first instruction mission aboard the Gripen aircraft, called the JAS-39D, belonging to the Swedish Air Force and allocated to the Wing Squadron F-7. This action, carried out in the first week of March in Såtenäs, Sweden, aims to qualify the Aviator Officers so that they can act in the deployment of the aircraft in Brazil.

While FAB pilots are improving in Sweden, Wing 2 in Annapolis (GO) continues to prepare for the receipt, later this year, of the first F-39 Gripen aircraft, as well as simulators and support equipment.

Machine translated from: https://www.aeroin.net/quatro-pilotos-d ... 9d-gripen/

This confirms what has been mentioned previously: the first series production Gripen E (which is called F-39 Gripen in Brazil) will be delivered to the Brazilian Air Force later this year.
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Unread post04 Jun 2021, 08:55

In a major shakeup of its aircraft buying plans, the Brazilian air force plans to nearly double its order of Saab Gripen fighters and cut its number of Embraer KC-390 Millennium transports roughly in half.

In total, the Brazilian air force aims to buy between 60 and 70 examples of the Gripen E/F, a fighter that it renamed the F-39E/F. That’s up from an initial order of 36 aircraft.

The negative impact of the coronavirus on the Brazilian economy, and thus government tax revenues, forced the service to make a hard choice, Baptista said.

Maybe the choice should have been no more planes before the economy and people in Brazil was better?

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... -fighters/
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ricnunes

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Unread post04 Jun 2021, 11:59

pron wrote:Maybe the choice should have been no more planes before the economy and people in Brazil was better?

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... -fighters/


The current Brazilian president is completely insane! Don't expect any reasonable and smart decisions from him (in every aspect, including military).
For instance Bolsonaro recently replaced the three heads (top generals) of the Army, Air Force and Navy for people of his own personal circle of influence.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post07 Jun 2021, 17:31

pron wrote:In a major shakeup of its aircraft buying plans, the Brazilian air force plans to nearly double its order of Saab Gripen fighters and cut its number of Embraer KC-390 Millennium transports roughly in half.

In total, the Brazilian air force aims to buy between 60 and 70 examples of the Gripen E/F, a fighter that it renamed the F-39E/F. That’s up from an initial order of 36 aircraft.

The negative impact of the coronavirus on the Brazilian economy, and thus government tax revenues, forced the service to make a hard choice, Baptista said.

Maybe the choice should have been no more planes before the economy and people in Brazil was better?

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... -fighters/


Thats disappointing. I was hoping to make fun of it more.

interesting that such "hard choices" had to be made when I'm told Gripen is so cheap... couldn't do both? are you sure? :mrgreen:
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Unread post08 Jun 2021, 02:51

Philippines re-evaluates Multi-Role Fighter selection, proposes JAS-39C Gripen

The Philippine Air Force (PAF) was reported to have made a re-evaluation of their fighter aircraft competition selection, with the Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen said to now edging out its only competitor, the Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 70 Viper.


According to Philippine defense page MaxDefense Philippines, the PAF has shifted its preference from the F-16 Viper to the JAS-39 Gripen due to procurement and sustainment cost. and delivery schedule considerations.


The offer from Lockheed Martin for 12 new F-16C/D Block 70 Viper fighter aircraft was said to be valued more than the PAF’s budget for the project, and was also higher than Saab’s offer for 12 new JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters.


Also, Lockheed Martin could only commit to deliver the first batch of 3 or 4 aircraft beyond 3 years, which is around 2025-2026, compared to Saab’s commitment to start delivery in less than 2 years from release of Notice to Proceed.


Both companies have made extra offers on top of the requirement for 12 new fighter aircraft.


MaxDefense Philippines believes that the PAF could be chasing the contract to be signed with the selected aircraft supplier before the end of 2021, as its chances of moving forward may be hampered by the country’s national elections in May 2022.


The PAF has officially raised a requirement for new fighter aircraft in 2018, but has been planning and evaluating offers from American, European, and Russian companies years before. Prior to this current fighter aircraft competition, the PAF has previous failed attempts to procure new fighters due to successive financial issues since the early 1990s.


The PAF only re-started conducting fighter and air defense operations in 2015 with the introduction of 12 new FA-50PH Fighting Eagle light combat aircraft from Korea Aerospace Industries, after losing fighter capability for 10 years starting in 2005 with the retirement of the last Northrop F-5A/B Freedom Fighter aircraft.


This fighter requirement is part of the PAF’s modernization program covering years 2018 to 2022, while additional fighter aircraft are planned for acquisition during the 2023 to 2028 phase of the program.



https://www.asiapacificdefensejournal.c ... xXwsy-KCVs
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ricnunes

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Unread post08 Jun 2021, 21:25

XanderCrews wrote:Thats disappointing. I was hoping to make fun of it more.

interesting that such "hard choices" had to be made when I'm told Gripen is so cheap... couldn't do both? are you sure? :mrgreen:


And you still can (make more fun of it)!

For instance Brazil has to cut by half the "crown jewel" of its military aircraft projects, the KC-390 in order to be able to buy more Gripens.
Like you said, if the Gripens were so cheap such decision wouldn't be needed, would it? ;)
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post09 Jun 2021, 22:23

pron wrote:Maybe the choice should have been no more planes before the economy and people in Brazil was better?

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... -fighters/


I am not an economist, but there are some who believe that in times of economic strife government projects should be increased, rather than cut (austerity). In this case though, not knowing much about the transports order book, even those who believe in that method would favor 2 production lines vs one.

ricnunes wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Thats disappointing. I was hoping to make fun of it more.

interesting that such "hard choices" had to be made when I'm told Gripen is so cheap... couldn't do both? are you sure? :mrgreen:


And you still can (make more fun of it)!

For instance Brazil has to cut by half the "crown jewel" of its military aircraft projects, the KC-390 in order to be able to buy more Gripens.
Like you said, if the Gripens were so cheap such decision wouldn't be needed, would it? ;)


The Gripen E's first kill
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Unread post10 Jun 2021, 17:36

XanderCrews wrote:
pron wrote:Maybe the choice should have been no more planes before the economy and people in Brazil was better?

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/ ... -fighters/


I am not an economist, but there are some who believe that in times of economic strife government projects should be increased, rather than cut (austerity). In this case though, not knowing much about the transports order book, even those who believe in that method would favor 2 production lines vs one.


In order to follow such strategy of increasing government projects instead of austerity, Brazil would have to keep the same number of planned C-390 while at the same time increasing the number of Gripens (or keeping the same number of Gripens while increasing their number of C-390).
This get even more 'stupid' since the Brazilian participation of the Gripen is far, far less compared to the C-390, afterall the Gripen is a Swedish aircraft while the C-390 is a Brazilian one.
On top of this there are much bigger and better prospects of Brazilian exports (much needed to its failing economy!) with the C-390 than with the Gripen (whose prospects are IMO basically null).


XanderCrews wrote:
ricnunes wrote:And you still can (make more fun of it)!

For instance Brazil has to cut by half the "crown jewel" of its military aircraft projects, the KC-390 in order to be able to buy more Gripens.
Like you said, if the Gripens were so cheap such decision wouldn't be needed, would it? ;)


The Gripen E's first kill


And what a big kill! :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post11 Jun 2021, 15:19

Saab had it's annual Gripen seminar this week. You can watch the video, or download a PDF. In the Q&A session they repeat that stealth are "dead" as usual. :D

1)Gripen program & market update
Jonas Hjelm
Senior vice president & head of Aeronautics

2)Gripen’s key capabilities
Daniela Ivanic
Line manager, Image
Jussi Halmetoja
Gripen test pilot and operations advisor

3)Q&A session

https://saab-seminar.creo.se/210608/wel ... en_seminar
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Unread post13 Jun 2021, 14:35

pron wrote:Saab had it's annual Gripen seminar this week. You can watch the video, or download a PDF. In the Q&A session they repeat that stealth are "dead" as usual. :D

1)Gripen program & market update
Jonas Hjelm
Senior vice president & head of Aeronautics

2)Gripen’s key capabilities
Daniela Ivanic
Line manager, Image
Jussi Halmetoja
Gripen test pilot and operations advisor

3)Q&A session

https://saab-seminar.creo.se/210608/wel ... en_seminar


Stealth = Dead?

It's difficult to believe in the year 2021 anyone still spouts this nonsense. Especially as the US, Russia, China, Japan, S. Korea and others are so doggedly pursuing stealth fighters, bombers in some cases etc.. Add to that the number of countries buying/flying F-35's, and you get.... bewilderment. If Brazil and other countries fall for this stuff, they deserve what they get...
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Unread post14 Jun 2021, 01:55

mixelflick wrote:
pron wrote:Saab had it's annual Gripen seminar this week. You can watch the video, or download a PDF. In the Q&A session they repeat that stealth are "dead" as usual. :D

1)Gripen program & market update
Jonas Hjelm
Senior vice president & head of Aeronautics

2)Gripen’s key capabilities
Daniela Ivanic
Line manager, Image
Jussi Halmetoja
Gripen test pilot and operations advisor

3)Q&A session

https://saab-seminar.creo.se/210608/wel ... en_seminar


Stealth = Dead?

It's difficult to believe in the year 2021 anyone still spouts this nonsense. Especially as the US, Russia, China, Japan, S. Korea and others are so doggedly pursuing stealth fighters, bombers in some cases etc.. Add to that the number of countries buying/flying F-35's, and you get.... bewilderment. If Brazil and other countries fall for this stuff, they deserve what they get...



Warren buffet said never ask a barber if you need a haircut. Its not a surprise that the group offering a non LO option thinks LO is "dead"-- I'd play that card too. The problem is no one believes them. Boeing doesn't play that card because it would make them look brain-dead. The Euro competitors, China and Russia are all moving toward LO across a myriad of platforms.

Remember the heady days of the late 2000s when Saab saw the Gripen NG as an actual F-35 alternative, and thats never actually happened. Every time an F-35 competes against Gripen E, Gripen loses.

The F-35 has about a dozen export nations, the world's premier air arms, and a who's who of industrial powerhouses behind it. Gripen E has Brazil.
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Unread post15 Jun 2021, 12:17

XanderCrews wrote:Warren buffet said never ask a barber if you need a haircut. Its not a surprise that the group offering a non LO option thinks LO is "dead"-- I'd play that card too. The problem is no one believes them. Boeing doesn't play that card because it would make them look brain-dead. The Euro competitors, China and Russia are all moving toward LO across a myriad of platforms.

Remember the heady days of the late 2000s when Saab saw the Gripen NG as an actual F-35 alternative, and thats never actually happened. Every time an F-35 competes against Gripen E, Gripen loses.

The F-35 has about a dozen export nations, the world's premier air arms, and a who's who of industrial powerhouses behind it. Gripen E has Brazil.


Exactly, although Boeing definitely tried to play that card:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/04/07/boeing-growler-eclipses-f35s-stealth-advantage.html

"Stealth is perishable; only a Growler provides full spectrum protection," states one of the slides in a briefing given by Mike Gibbons, vice president of F/A-18 and EA-18G programs for Boeing, in a not-so-subtle dig at the radar-evading, fifth-generation jet made by Lockheed Martin Corp.


I like how somehow competitors like Saab and Boeing always seem to claim that stealth means you can't use electronic warfare and stealth means significantly added costs and increased maintenance needs. Maybe somebody should show them basic radar equations which show that jamming power directly competes against RCS. Or that LM offer for Finland includes just as many fighters as Boeing and Saab offers. So much for the cost advantages for 4th gen jets... :roll:

I also find it very funny that Saab is involved and invested own money in the Tempest FCAS project, which will be a 5th generation stealth fighter jet and which will enter service by 2040 or so... Why if EW is the way to go... :roll:
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