Can the Rafale or Typhoon Supercruise with combat loadout?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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bubblewhip

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Unread post24 Sep 2015, 21:27

First, yes I have used the search function and googling, and what I get is religious wars and bad sources of claims that "Well Eurofighter says it can so it can." on the issue.

I end up fighting a lot of people on the issue of wikipediaist who simply look at features and top speed against fighters like the F-35 and say that "well it does x and y does not or only in limited capacity so x is better'

Understanding parasitic drag has totally changed my perception of fighter jets and regards to technical specifications of aircraft with internal bays like the F-35 and F-22.

So the claims that the Typhoon or Rafale can supercruise tends to raise eyebrows for me because it is dependent on external pylons.

Can both these fighters supercruise with a realistic combat loadout? Or is it supercruise with 2 AIm-120's with nothing else?
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basher54321

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Unread post24 Sep 2015, 22:09

No flight test data is available that I know of

A Swedish AF evaluation in 2008/9 mentioned the EF in A-A mission evaluation could supercruise at M1.4 although no loadout specified. You could guess that recessed carriage of 4 x AMRAAMs and 2 x ASRAAM on the wings could be possible for or near this figure if that was true.

Are there any claimed figures for the Rafale?
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geforcerfx

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Unread post25 Sep 2015, 06:50

basher54321 wrote:Are there any claimed figures for the Rafale?


I've seen M1.2 with 4 a2a missiles said for the rafale but just on forums with no actual info really backing. Both airframes have there main limits in super cruise being there internal fuel.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread188667/pg1
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hornetfinn

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Unread post25 Sep 2015, 09:23

basher54321 wrote:No flight test data is available that I know of

A Swedish AF evaluation in 2008/9 mentioned the EF in A-A mission evaluation could supercruise at M1.4 although no loadout specified. You could guess that recessed carriage of 4 x AMRAAMs and 2 x ASRAAM on the wings could be possible for or near this figure if that was true.

Are there any claimed figures for the Rafale?


I think you mean Swiss AF.

Anyway that same evaluation put Rafale as somewhat better performing as Swiss F/A-18C (which have EPE engines). Score 6 was minimum requirement and Rafale scored 7 in overall aircraft performances. EF Typhoon scored 9 and Gripen about 5.5. Since supercruise Mach 1.4 was especially stated as strong point for Tiffy, it seems like Rafale does not have significant supercruise capability (and Gripen NG definitely not). Of course Rafale got most of the best scores in other areas and was evaluated as most effective in both DCA and OCA despite this. I think Rafale is very close to F-16C in overall performance. I've never seen Dassault or French AF or Navy claiming that Rafale can supercruise. Some internet fans claim that though, but without any credible sources to back those claims up.

IMO, supercruise is nice capability but also something you can easily live without (as Swiss evaluation showed).
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Unread post25 Sep 2015, 13:33

hornetfinn wrote:
basher54321 wrote:No flight test data is available that I know of

A Swedish AF evaluation in 2008/9 mentioned the EF in A-A mission evaluation could supercruise at M1.4 although no loadout specified. You could guess that recessed carriage of 4 x AMRAAMs and 2 x ASRAAM on the wings could be possible for or near this figure if that was true.

Are there any claimed figures for the Rafale?


I think you mean Swiss AF.

Anyway that same evaluation put Rafale as somewhat better performing as Swiss F/A-18C (which have EPE engines). Score 6 was minimum requirement and Rafale scored 7 in overall aircraft performances. EF Typhoon scored 9 and Gripen about 5.5. Since supercruise Mach 1.4 was especially stated as strong point for Tiffy, it seems like Rafale does not have significant supercruise capability (and Gripen NG definitely not). Of course Rafale got most of the best scores in other areas and was evaluated as most effective in both DCA and OCA despite this. I think Rafale is very close to F-16C in overall performance. I've never seen Dassault or French AF or Navy claiming that Rafale can supercruise. Some internet fans claim that though, but without any credible sources to back those claims up.

IMO, supercruise is nice capability but also something you can easily live without (as Swiss evaluation showed).

May be for Swiss AF it is not important but for USAF fighting in vast areas of operations like the Asia-Pacific its important to conserve fuel
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Unread post25 Sep 2015, 18:41

hornetfinn wrote:
I think you mean Swiss AF.



:doh: - the Swedish of course perhaps might not have portrayed the Gripen in such a bad light :D
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vilters

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Unread post25 Sep 2015, 19:33

If you want to save fuel, you stay subsonic.

That supercruise hype is for the sales managers, and the Internet boys only.

ABSOLUTELY NO misson requirement ANYWHERE. => Want to save fuel? => Slow down.

It's a "sales hype", nothing more, nothing less.
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charlielima223

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Unread post28 Sep 2015, 02:35

vilters wrote:If you want to save fuel, you stay subsonic.

That supercruise hype is for the sales managers, and the Internet boys only.

ABSOLUTELY NO misson requirement ANYWHERE. => Want to save fuel? => Slow down.

It's a "sales hype", nothing more, nothing less.


*IMO*
I don't believe supercruise is a "hype". I would think there is an operational purpose for it. Things like time sensitive interdiction and interception. Sure you're burning alot of JP-5 or JP-8 (whatever is most commonly used now) but you're not burning as much as going to full AB. Supercruise would also give better range and kinetic performance to weapons. Having an aircraft that can supercruise would also mean that it's acceleration in subsonic and transonic envelopes in dry thrust regimes would be better than an aircraft that doesn't have that capability (F-22 compared to F-15C). Also for all those IRST lovers out there, Supercruise doesn't create as much heat as AB and visually less detectable.
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wil59

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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 10:00

hornetfinn wrote:
basher54321 wrote:No flight test data is available that I know of

A Swedish AF evaluation in 2008/9 mentioned the EF in A-A mission evaluation could supercruise at M1.4 although no loadout specified. You could guess that recessed carriage of 4 x AMRAAMs and 2 x ASRAAM on the wings could be possible for or near this figure if that was true.

Are there any claimed figures for the Rafale?


I think you mean Swiss AF.

Anyway that same evaluation put Rafale as somewhat better performing as Swiss F/A-18C (which have EPE engines). Score 6 was minimum requirement and Rafale scored 7 in overall aircraft performances. EF Typhoon scored 9 and Gripen about 5.5. Since supercruise Mach 1.4 was especially stated as strong point for Tiffy, it seems like Rafale does not have significant supercruise capability (and Gripen NG definitely not). Of course Rafale got most of the best scores in other areas and was evaluated as most effective in both DCA and OCA despite this. I think Rafale is very close to F-16C in overall performance. I've never seen Dassault or French AF or Navy claiming that Rafale can supercruise. Some internet fans claim that though, but without any credible sources to back those claims up.

IMO, supercruise is nice capability but also something you can easily live without (as Swiss evaluation showed).

Here are the figures Swiss Evaluation 2009 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1xIGy5FbmLQ/T ... l_NWA2.png eurofighter obtained at 9? that you have the link? Overall performance or only super cruise capability?
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wil59

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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 10:37

wil59 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
basher54321 wrote:No flight test data is available that I know of

A Swedish AF evaluation in 2008/9 mentioned the EF in A-A mission evaluation could supercruise at M1.4 although no loadout specified. You could guess that recessed carriage of 4 x AMRAAMs and 2 x ASRAAM on the wings could be possible for or near this figure if that was true.

Are there any claimed figures for the Rafale?


I think you mean Swiss AF.

Anyway that same evaluation put Rafale as somewhat better performing as Swiss F/A-18C (which have EPE engines). Score 6 was minimum requirement and Rafale scored 7 in overall aircraft performances. EF Typhoon scored 9 and Gripen about 5.5. Since supercruise Mach 1.4 was especially stated as strong point for Tiffy, it seems like Rafale does not have significant supercruise capability (and Gripen NG definitely not). Of course Rafale got most of the best scores in other areas and was evaluated as most effective in both DCA and OCA despite this. I think Rafale is very close to F-16C in overall performance. I've never seen Dassault or French AF or Navy claiming that Rafale can supercruise. Some internet fans claim that though, but without any credible sources to back those claims up.

IMO, supercruise is nice capability but also something you can easily live without (as Swiss evaluation showed).

Here are the figures Swiss Evaluation 2009 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1xIGy5FbmLQ/T ... l_NWA2.png eurofighter obtained at 9? that you have the link? Overall performance or only super cruise capability?
Super Cruise in Super sonic Speed

which means the engines can power the Aircraft without burning any flames, usually the Plane can glide at super sonic ranges without wasting much more energy and Engine power, almost all the contenders in MMRCA comes with super cruise, but Rafale only performed better with the Sneccma M88 Engines, in a Test mission set by IAF, the Rafale Carry's four Air to air missiles along with two guided bombs, and at the speed of Mach 1.4, and impressed the IAF evaluation team,

Super cruise can be used to defeat most Heat seeking or IR Guided missile, which is usually tracks the Target using the Heat signatures, during dog fights or Close combat one was always try to escape from the Red zone with full power, that means he can go full after burner to achieve maximum speed, which also makes the missile for easy target, most of the time the IR guided missiles targets the Flares and the sun's because of Sun's heat spot. But with the Help of Super cruise without making Heat signs the Rafale can escape from the red zone at higher speed with the small design it can also maneuver at high rate to evade the missile.
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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 12:48

wil59 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Anyway that same evaluation put Rafale as somewhat better performing as Swiss F/A-18C (which have EPE engines). Score 6 was minimum requirement and Rafale scored 7 in overall aircraft performances. EF Typhoon scored 9 and Gripen about 5.5. Since supercruise Mach 1.4 was especially stated as strong point for Tiffy, it seems like Rafale does not have significant supercruise capability (and Gripen NG definitely not). Of course Rafale got most of the best scores in other areas and was evaluated as most effective in both DCA and OCA despite this. I think Rafale is very close to F-16C in overall performance. I've never seen Dassault or French AF or Navy claiming that Rafale can supercruise. Some internet fans claim that though, but without any credible sources to back those claims up.

IMO, supercruise is nice capability but also something you can easily live without (as Swiss evaluation showed).

Here are the figures Swiss Evaluation 2009 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1xIGy5FbmLQ/T ... l_NWA2.png eurofighter obtained at 9? that you have the link? Overall performance or only super cruise capability?


http://goo.gl/ig7tG4

Figure 2-4.

They also say in Executive Summary that AC Performances was a strong point for Typhoon and especially mention Mach 1.4 supercruise.
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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 13:09

wil59 wrote: which means the engines can power the Aircraft without burning any flames, usually the Plane can glide at super sonic ranges without wasting much more energy and Engine power, almost all the contenders in MMRCA comes with super cruise, but Rafale only performed better with the Sneccma M88 Engines, in a Test mission set by IAF, the Rafale Carry's four Air to air missiles along with two guided bombs, and at the speed of Mach 1.4, and impressed the IAF evaluation team,


I'd like to see any credible source for that claim.

wil59 wrote: Super cruise can be used to defeat most Heat seeking or IR Guided missile, which is usually tracks the Target using the Heat signatures, during dog fights or Close combat one was always try to escape from the Red zone with full power, that means he can go full after burner to achieve maximum speed, which also makes the missile for easy target, most of the time the IR guided missiles targets the Flares and the sun's because of Sun's heat spot. But with the Help of Super cruise without making Heat signs the Rafale can escape from the red zone at higher speed with the small design it can also maneuver at high rate to evade the missile.


I seriously doubt supercruise is that useful in close combat as it takes quite a bit of time and space to accelerate to supersonic speed, especially on dry thrust only. From what I've read and heard, even F-22 usually accelerate using AB and then supercruise. While AB burns much more fuel, it also shortens acceleration time a lot and thus can actually be more economical.

Modern missiles are pretty oblivious to sun and even flares. Especially the ones with imaging seekers won't be fooled by sun at all.
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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 17:46

hornetfinn wrote:
wil59 wrote: which means the engines can power the Aircraft without burning any flames, usually the Plane can glide at super sonic ranges without wasting much more energy and Engine power, almost all the contenders in MMRCA comes with super cruise, but Rafale only performed better with the Sneccma M88 Engines, in a Test mission set by IAF, the Rafale Carry's four Air to air missiles along with two guided bombs, and at the speed of Mach 1.4, and impressed the IAF evaluation team,


I'd like to see any credible source for that claim.

wil59 wrote: Super cruise can be used to defeat most Heat seeking or IR Guided missile, which is usually tracks the Target using the Heat signatures, during dog fights or Close combat one was always try to escape from the Red zone with full power, that means he can go full after burner to achieve maximum speed, which also makes the missile for easy target, most of the time the IR guided missiles targets the Flares and the sun's because of Sun's heat spot. But with the Help of Super cruise without making Heat signs the Rafale can escape from the red zone at higher speed with the small design it can also maneuver at high rate to evade the missile.


I seriously doubt supercruise is that useful in close combat as it takes quite a bit of time and space to accelerate to supersonic speed, especially on dry thrust only. From what I've read and heard, even F-22 usually accelerate using AB and then supercruise. While AB burns much more fuel, it also shortens acceleration time a lot and thus can actually be more economical.

Modern missiles are pretty oblivious to sun and even flares. Especially the ones with imaging seekers won't be fooled by sun at all.

I'm ok with you supercruise is useless in close combat; I only said that the burst has a capacity mica won 4 and 2 guided bomb with the capacity mach 1.4 supercruise
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wil59

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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 18:03

wil59 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
wil59 wrote: which means the engines can power the Aircraft without burning any flames, usually the Plane can glide at super sonic ranges without wasting much more energy and Engine power, almost all the contenders in MMRCA comes with super cruise, but Rafale only performed better with the Sneccma M88 Engines, in a Test mission set by IAF, the Rafale Carry's four Air to air missiles along with two guided bombs, and at the speed of Mach 1.4, and impressed the IAF evaluation team,


I'd like to see any credible source for that claim.

wil59 wrote: Super cruise can be used to defeat most Heat seeking or IR Guided missile, which is usually tracks the Target using the Heat signatures, during dog fights or Close combat one was always try to escape from the Red zone with full power, that means he can go full after burner to achieve maximum speed, which also makes the missile for easy target, most of the time the IR guided missiles targets the Flares and the sun's because of Sun's heat spot. But with the Help of Super cruise without making Heat signs the Rafale can escape from the red zone at higher speed with the small design it can also maneuver at high rate to evade the missile.


I seriously doubt supercruise is that useful in close combat as it takes quite a bit of time and space to accelerate to supersonic speed, especially on dry thrust only. From what I've read and heard, even F-22 usually accelerate using AB and then supercruise. While AB burns much more fuel, it also shortens acceleration time a lot and thus can actually be more economical.

Modern missiles are pretty oblivious to sun and even flares. Especially the ones with imaging seekers won't be fooled by sun at all.

I'm ok with you supercruise is useless in close combat; I only said that the burst has a capacity mica won 4 and 2 guided bomb with the capacity mach 1.4 supercruise
It is capable of reaching a maximum speed of Mach 1.8 and Mach 1.4 speed supercruise with 6 MICA6 missiles. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_ ... de_mission
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basher54321

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Unread post29 Sep 2015, 18:36




The problem here is that anybody can change Wikipedia pages - thus it is not deemed a credible source of information. It mentions supercruise in 2 places and references #6 both times.


Capture.JPG



If you go to references 6 or 84 - where did they get that information from??



84 = http://www.opex360.com/2014/01/23/essai ... ment-arme/

6 = blank

5 = http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/def ... formances/
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