Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2009, 06:59
by peterb
Well the Typhoon is Europe's answer. How do you think it compares with it's rivals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFZcF17GJk

RE: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2009, 15:40
by bjr1028
Its a lot like the F8F, built as its era was coming to a close. Its the best 4th aircraft ever designed. Problem is, any opposing 5th generation aircraft were to enter service, it would very quickly become ineffective.

RE: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 06:38
by geogen
It would be a fair guess perhaps, that Typhoon has at least another 10 yrs of sufficiently effective deterrence value, on top of the couple yrs exploited already (4.5/4.5+ jets will be frontline for years to come). It will depend on how up to date and comprehensive its systems are upgraded and how up to date it is armed; thus keeping the jet relatively modern. But the airframe and platform's effectiveness itself is valid for some time to come, as a stand-alone, stop-gap and complement to more modern generational platforms (manned and unmanned) soon to enter to scene.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 11:19
by shep1978
peterb wrote:Well the Typhoon is Europe's answer. How do you think it compares with it's rivals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFZcF17GJk


It compares fairly well with its rivals, that being 4th gen fighters but being a 4th gen fighter it of course suffers from all the problems they do such as a large RCS, external weapons, mechanical scan radar etc etc.
Unfortuantly at the end of the day Typhoon is really nothing more than a 'teen' series fighter in its design philosophy and really not much more of a performer either despite what Euro fanatics try to claim.
Its use is pretty much limited to a low tech IADS threat and Typhoon is not really useable in a high threat environment making it an essentially defensive aircraft for use over friendly airspace, eg the North Sea or UK mainland in my nations case.
I know someone will pop up and claim "b..b..but Typhoon carries cruise missiles and needn't go into enemy airspace" but those people are rather misinformed about the usefullness of cruise missiles when hunting time critical targets or simply taking out low value targets that a cruise missile is complete and utter overkill for, eg a tank. Typhoon also cannot realisicly perform offensive counter air or escort missions either over anything more than a low threat IADS environment which once again limits its usefullness and value in its primary air to air role.

In my opinion we were stupid in the UK to go for an aircraft that offered nothing that the Teen series of jets offered us decades before Typhoon ever saw service except for some minor performance improvements.
We ended up with what could be decribed as a decades late Teen era fighter which is constrained by its poor RCS standards which of course I know are fairly good on paper but once you've hung your weapons off it it once again becomes a beacon for all to see.
All in all Typhoon was a good jobs program but as a combat aircraft it was a couple of decades late and by the time it arrived the game had changed.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 12:58
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:It compares fairly well with its rivals, that being 4th gen fighters but being a 4th gen fighter it of course suffers from all the problems they do such as a large RCS, external weapons, mechanical scan radar etc etc.
Unfortuantly at the end of the day Typhoon is really nothing more than a 'teen' series fighter in its design philosophy and really not much more of a performer either despite what Euro fanatics try to claim.
Its use is pretty much limited to a low tech IADS threat and Typhoon is not really useable in a high threat environment making it an essentially defensive aircraft for use over friendly airspace, eg the North Sea or UK mainland in my nations case.
I know someone will pop up and claim "b..b..but Typhoon carries cruise missiles and needn't go into enemy airspace" but those people are rather misinformed about the usefullness of cruise missiles when hunting time critical targets or simply taking out low value targets that a cruise missile is complete and utter overkill for, eg a tank. Typhoon also cannot realisicly perform offensive counter air or escort missions either over anything more than a low threat IADS environment which once again limits its usefullness and value in its primary air to air role.

In my opinion we were stupid in the UK to go for an aircraft that offered nothing that the Teen series of jets offered us decades before Typhoon ever saw service except for some minor performance improvements.
We ended up with what could be decribed as a decades late Teen era fighter which is constrained by its poor RCS standards which of course I know are fairly good on paper but once you've hung your weapons off it it once again becomes a beacon for all to see.
All in all Typhoon was a good jobs program but as a combat aircraft it was a couple of decades late and by the time it arrived the game had changed.


Oh dear all combat aircraft suffered from "problems" since stores were invented, a shame and no aircraft except for the mighty Raptor or Lightning II is going to be a piece of junk, unusable in any conflict. :roll:

Edit:
I forgot the Typhoon is ofcourse nothing else than a jobs programme, an F-16 with 10 times the prices and a "couple" of decades late. We all know that fully integrated DAS, sensor fusion, NCW capabilities, that kind of MMI and avionics were all available to the upper US superfighters back in the 70s.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 15:18
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:Oh dear all combat aircraft suffered from "problems" since stores were invented, a shame and no aircraft except for the mighty Raptor or Lightning II is going to be a piece of junk, unusable in any conflict. :roll:


So you claim the Typhoon can operate in a high threat or even a medium IADS environment? Well you'll have to excuse me while I snort with laughter if you do believe that.
The worlds moved on and so have air defence systems and Typhoon is, like it or not extremely vulnerable to such systems where as the systems you deride so much, the F-22 and F-35 are believe it or not able to operate in the face of and confront such modern air defence whilst enjoying a great deal of protection due to their designs.
You can keep yammering on about how super Typhoon is all you like but few are as convinced as you. Conversly the jets you so willingly deride are being sought after by many nations. The F-22 was wanted by those who could afford or hoped they could afford it but for obvious reasons no sales where made and the F-35, well thats wanted by many many nations which speaks volumes about the potential of the jet, infact it is far more wanted by various world airforces than the Typhoon if i'm not mistaken which again speaks volumes.
Face it the Typhoons day over the modern battlespace has been and gone just like that of the teen jets.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 17:39
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:So you claim the Typhoon can operate in a high threat or even a medium IADS environment? Well you'll have to excuse me while I snort with laughter if you do believe that.
The worlds moved on and so have air defence systems and Typhoon is, like it or not extremely vulnerable to such systems where as the systems you deride so much, the F-22 and F-35 are believe it or not able to operate in the face of and confront such modern air defence whilst enjoying a great deal of protection due to their designs.
You can keep yammering on about how super Typhoon is all you like but few are as convinced as you. Conversly the jets you so willingly deride are being sought after by many nations. The F-22 was wanted by those who could afford or hoped they could afford it but for obvious reasons no sales where made and the F-35, well thats wanted by many many nations which speaks volumes about the potential of the jet, infact it is far more wanted by various world airforces than the Typhoon if i'm not mistaken which again speaks volumes.
Face it the Typhoons day over the modern battlespace has been and gone just like that of the teen jets.


You read a lot within a few sentences. So how many multilayer IADS are operated by likely threat nations, how many stealth a/c are operated by any potential threat nation within the next 2+ decades to come? No one is disputing the advantages of stealth, but you wont sent a single aircraft into a well defended area just on good luck. Claiming the aircraft is entirely useless is a bit exeggerated like those dumb claims such as the teens provided everything 2 decades ago. But fine make claims you can not sustain and then ressort to accuse people for claiming things.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 19:31
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:You read a lot within a few sentences. So how many multilayer IADS are operated by likely threat nations, how many stealth a/c are operated by any potential threat nation within the next 2+ decades to come? No one is disputing the advantages of stealth, but you wont sent a single aircraft into a well defended area just on good luck. Claiming the aircraft is entirely useless is a bit exeggerated like those dumb claims such as the teens provided everything 2 decades ago. But fine make claims you can not sustain and then ressort to accuse people for claiming things.


How many nations may be operating an IADS capable of taking down Typhoons in the future is something i haven't counted, however, you can be sure the number of those nations grows with each year or two that passes, so, the number of countries that a Typhoon or similar 4th gen fighter can operate over is being limited more and more. For example if Iran does gets its claws on S-300 systems as promised there goes another nation Typhoon is sadly next to useless operating over or in nearby airspace to, Iran is a nation that is Typhoon operators currently take the threat of very seriously I should add.
Pretty much all that is needed to counter a nation that operates Typhoon is time, money and a few calls to Moscow to arrange to purcahse some modern air defence systems and your all set to be pretty much immune from any airforces that operate the Typhoon.
The MOD's and airforces of many many various nations around the world know fully well that external weapons and a non stealthy airframe are NOT the way to go for the future if they wish to remain serious about taking the fight to any potential enemy, which is something which you seem to be unable to grasp.

Also, inspite of Typhoons slightly better performance in the energy game vs teen fighters I don't buy it that it adds anything new above and over current teen series of fighters, bar an IRST which of course could be added if reqiured.
Can you to tell me what makes it so special in that respect as non of what you have listed so far convinced me.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2009, 22:24
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:How many nations may be operating an IADS capable of taking down Typhoons in the future is something i haven't counted, however, you can be sure the number of those nations grows with each year or two that passes, so, the number of countries that a Typhoon or similar 4th gen fighter can operate over is being limited more and more. For example if Iran does gets its claws on S-300 systems as promised there goes another nation Typhoon is sadly next to useless operating over or in nearby airspace to, Iran is a nation that is Typhoon operators currently take the threat of very seriously I should add.
Pretty much all that is needed to counter a nation that operates Typhoon is time, money and a few calls to Moscow to arrange to purcahse some modern air defence systems and your all set to be pretty much immune from any airforces that operate the Typhoon.
The MOD's and airforces of many many various nations around the world know fully well that external weapons and a non stealthy airframe are NOT the way to go for the future if they wish to remain serious about taking the fight to any potential enemy, which is something which you seem to be unable to grasp.

Also, inspite of Typhoons slightly better performance in the energy game vs teen fighters I don't buy it that it adds anything new above and over current teen series of fighters, bar an IRST which of course could be added if reqiured.
Can you to tell me what makes it so special in that respect as non of what you have listed so far convinced me.


And you believe that a handful of S300s, which aren't the very newest SAMs as well are going to defeat any decent equipped AF? There are a lot of theoretical assumptions, which aren't even based on factual evidence either. No one is going to sent one or a few aircraft out to the blue and hopes they RTB safely. As said before I don't dispute the advantages of stealth, but it's somewhat exeggerate to claim that every aircraft in the world, spare the VLO/LO designs is next to useless.

It's quite funny how everyone has no problem to accept claims for the F-22s upper superior performance, but regarding those bad evil european aircraft it's out of the realms of possibility. :roll:
Pilots seem to think different and I couldn't care less what you believe.

You claimed the Typhoon offers nothing which wasn't available to the teens 2 decades ago and I listed up a few things which were definitely not available. Changing arguments again?

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2009, 18:09
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:
And you believe that a handful of S300s, which aren't the very newest SAMs as well are going to defeat any decent equipped AF? There are a lot of theoretical assumptions, which aren't even based on factual evidence either. No one is going to sent one or a few aircraft out to the blue and hopes they RTB safely. As said before I don't dispute the advantages of stealth, but it's somewhat exeggerate to claim that every aircraft in the world, spare the VLO/LO designs is next to useless.

It's quite funny how everyone has no problem to accept claims for the F-22s upper superior performance, but regarding those bad evil european aircraft it's out of the realms of possibility. :roll:
Pilots seem to think different and I couldn't care less what you believe.

You claimed the Typhoon offers nothing which wasn't available to the teens 2 decades ago and I listed up a few things which were definitely not available. Changing arguments again?


A handful of S-300 type systems or, shock horror, even more modern air defence systems would most certainly cause any Typhoon pilot to have a very bad day, to deny that is most niave of you. Also, my first post in this thread cleary shows that i think it is a good air defence fighter when operating in a benign environment such as the North Sea so it does improve national security of its owner nations. and I never claimed Typhoon useless alltogether, just useless as a tool of foreign policy in terms of being able to strike a well defended target unless it uses cruise missiles which as I stated is far from ideal for many situations.

As to the F-22 performance being accepted by me, well yes it is but that's irrelevent here though i have to pull you up and ask just where i said Euro citizens were "evil" (as you imply) and as for Euro jets being rubbished by me; well I simply pointed out that we missed the boat over here in that we designed conventional fighters with external missile carrage and non stealthy airframes whilst the writing has been on the wall for decades now that stealth is THE way to go. It's hardly my fault we Euro's ended up with aircraft that are extremely suceptable to SAMs when we could have took a different, admitidly more risky path and designed a true stealth fighter as it was and still is within our capability, it probably wouldn't have even cost that much more and the benifits in times of conflict would be priceless. As it is we blew it and created a 'super teen fighter' which wasn't to bright in my opinion.

You are missing the point with my comparison to typhoon and teen fighters, my point was that Typhoon essentially offers nothing new over the teen fighters and of course Typhoon is more advanced then the 80's era Teen jets were but they have upgraded and in some cases upgraded to rival the Typhoon, see Golden Eagle's as an example. We in the Uk could have bought an upgraded F-15 AND had it in operation a decade before the Typhoon, it could than have been kept up to date (just as the typhoon is being kept up to date right now with its mech scan radar needing to be replaced soon) It would have worked out more cost effective and the end result would be no different to the user, in theis case the RAF.
Again I have to ask what does the Typhoon offer right now that teen series jets don't have? Nothing seems to be the answer except for a higher price tag and alot less less A-G usefullness.
Anyway, why are you even responding to my posts seeing as you said "I couldn't care less what you believe" ? :wink:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2009, 19:35
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:A handful of S-300 type systems or, shock horror, even more modern air defence systems would most certainly cause any Typhoon pilot to have a very bad day, to deny that is most niave of you.


Could but it's not a must. Look no one will sent a single aircraft, particularly non stealth a/c into a well defended area. Any such operations would be carefully prepared with certain aircraft types (Typhoon or not) being just a part of a larger warfighting machinery. I don't say that a stealth aircraft wouldn't be a better choice to attack well defended priority targets in the first days of a war.


Also, my first post in this thread cleary shows that i think it is a good air defence fighter when operating in a benign environment such as the North Sea so it does improve national security of its owner nations. and I never claimed Typhoon useless alltogether, just useless as a tool of foreign policy in terms of being able to strike a well defended target unless it uses cruise missiles which as I stated is far from ideal for many situations.


Well it certainly depends on the threat's capabilities and scenarios. Current Typhoon customers won't fight an enemy on their own, but as part of a larger multinational force. The aircraft could well be used to provide air cover once the most threatening ADS are destroyed and could attack other ground targets, perform reconaissance etc.

As to the F-22 performance being accepted by me, well yes it is but that's irrelevent here though i have to pull you up and ask just where i said Euro citizens were "evil" (as you imply) and as for Euro jets being rubbished by me;


I said evil european "aircraft" not citizens, but what I intended to say was that people dismiss any claims of superiority in this or that area for european aircraft like the Typhoon, while any claims about US fighters are taken as gospel truth. Not that I don't acknowledge the performance of the F-22 for example, but I acknowledge the same for the Typhoon in the areas it deserves it.

well I simply pointed out that we missed the boat over here in that we designed conventional fighters with external missile carrage and non stealthy airframes whilst the writing has been on the wall for decades now that stealth is THE way to go.


Well a stealth fighter like the F-22 would have been out of reach at that time, for costs alone. Europe required a cheaper and more versatile platform. Neither RAF, Luftwaffe, Aeronautica Militare Italiana, nor the Ejercito Del Aire are the USAF. People seem not to be aware/or forget of the european requirements and the backgrounds for the development of these aircraft.

It's hardly my fault we Euro's ended up with aircraft that are extremely suceptable to SAMs when we could have took a different, admitidly more risky path and designed a true stealth fighter as it was and still is within our capability, it probably wouldn't have even cost that much more and the benifits in times of conflict would be priceless. As it is we blew it and created a 'super teen fighter' which wasn't to bright in my opinion.


For what reason should the europeans have designed an F-22 equivalent, even if they had the money at hand? The F-22 is unquestionably the most capable aerial fighter in the world and it is a useful asset to strike well defended targets, but it's also the most expensive fighter ever designed and a great portion of its development, procurement and operating costs is consumed by the stealth characteristics, the aircraft is unlikely to need for more than 10% of its service life if that much at all. The F-22 production is capped at 187 airframes and the aircraft isn't going to be sold to anyone. The USAF afforts that luxary to have the ensurance it has a potent weapons system for the worst case becoming the unwanted reality. So how is the F-22 going to be relevant or how useful would it have been to develope an equivalent? Eurofighter customers who want a first day strike capability go for the F-35 or possibly stealth UCAVs which is certainly more useful, though an all out F-35 fleet might not be to cost effective either.

You are missing the point with my comparison to typhoon and teen fighters, my point was that Typhoon essentially offers nothing new over the teen fighters and of course Typhoon is more advanced then the 80's era Teen jets were but they have upgraded and in some cases upgraded to rival the Typhoon, see Golden Eagle's as an example. We in the Uk could have bought an upgraded F-15 AND had it in operation a decade before the Typhoon, it could than have been kept up to date (just as the typhoon is being kept up to date right now with its mech scan radar needing to be replaced soon) It would have worked out more cost effective and the end result would be no different to the user, in theis case the RAF.


If the F-15 would be more viable is questionable and the costs aren't necessarily lower. The latest F-15s aren't really much cheaper to procure and they are most likely more expensive to operate. Let alone the loses with regards to the european defence and aerospace industries capabilities and sustained expertise, jobs etc.

Again I have to ask what does the Typhoon offer right now that teen series jets don't have? Nothing seems to be the answer except for a higher price tag and alot less less A-G usefullness.


It's the combination of performances and capabilities which provides the Typhoon with a certain level of superiority in AA, sure the aircraft is expensive and currently lacks adequate AG capabilities, but it wasn't meant to be a strike/attack aircraft in the first place. I could say the same about the F-22 its expensive and lacks the AG capabilities of an F-16 or F-15E...

RE: Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2009, 08:09
by peterb
I think the European governments considered it important to develop the technology, from the point of view of gaining the knowledge, actual production and not having to rely on overseas procurement. The different air forces had different requirements so compromises were made. It also created a lot of jobs and cemented the relationships between the manufacturing companies. Tornado is a good aircraft and so is the Typhoon. Future aircraft of this type will obviously have to incorporate stealth technology though.

RE: Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2009, 09:42
by geogen
Good assessment, Peterb. I think the current logic at least, is to hypothesize a future Euro mix of the latest 4.5 gen, F-35 and Euro-designed LO UCAV?

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2009, 04:36
by Thumper3181
Scorpion82 wrote:
I forgot the Typhoon is ofcourse nothing else than a jobs programme, an F-16 with 10 times the prices and a "couple" of decades late. We all know that fully integrated DAS, sensor fusion, NCW capabilities, that kind of MMI and avionics were all available to the upper US superfighters back in the 70s.


No they did not have it in the 70s. The American fighters had similar and in some cases superior performance compared to Typhoon in the 70s. I would point out to you that "fully integrated DAS, sensor fusion, NCW capabilities, that kind of MMI and avionics" are all things that updated teen series fighters either also have now or can be added as an upgrade if necessary.

They also have something very important that Typhoon does not. Several mature, fully integrated AESA solutions, and fully funded development spirals. How many of those Typhoons are going to get Pirate and a helmet=t mounted sight? How many of those first batch of Typhoons will quickly become obsolete because the first batch was fielded without full capabilities and probably will not be upgraded due to lack of funds?

Typhoon was a great jobs program but an utter failure as a fighter. You have plance that due to cost has drained military budgets and is in need of upgrading from day one. They will be nothing better than second tier fighters come 2020 and gate guards 10 years thereafter.

Typhoon would have been a great plane if it was fielded 15 years ago at a price that was affordable.

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2009, 06:11
by darkvarkguy
I thought this was funny!

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2009, 13:12
by peterb
Somehow I think the European governments will continue to develop the Eurofighter Typhoon, they have too much invested in it. I can't see the RAF buying F-22 Raptors for example, great though it would be if the RAF had them. However much you criticise the Typhoon it IS a useful aircraft and will be in service for quite a while.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2009, 14:27
by Scorpion82
Thumper3181 wrote:No they did not have it in the 70s. The American fighters had similar and in some cases superior performance compared to Typhoon in the 70s. I would point out to you that "fully integrated DAS, sensor fusion, NCW capabilities, that kind of MMI and avionics" are all things that updated teen series fighters either also have now or can be added as an upgrade if necessary.

They also have something very important that Typhoon does not. Several mature, fully integrated AESA solutions, and fully funded development spirals. How many of those Typhoons are going to get Pirate and a helmet=t mounted sight? How many of those first batch of Typhoons will quickly become obsolete because the first batch was fielded without full capabilities and probably will not be upgraded due to lack of funds?


Typhoon was a great jobs program but an utter failure as a fighter. You have plance that due to cost has drained military budgets and is in need of upgrading from day one. They will be nothing better than second tier fighters come 2020 and gate guards 10 years thereafter.

Typhoon would have been a great plane if it was fielded 15 years ago at a price that was affordable.



You are applying a double standard here. Sure the Typhoon isn't perfect, it is late and expensive, but it yet offers a combination of performances, capabilities and technologies in A2A which is hardly matched by most aircraft. It's certainly no F-22, but that doesn't mean it's a bad fighter or as you put it an "utter failure". During the evaluations and exercises the aircraft participated over the past few years it received a quite good reputation and was highly successful in the role it was intended for in the first place.
And while you asked all earlier T1 aircraft are going to be upgraded to block 5 as part of the funded R2 programme which was launched back in 2006. Many block 5 aircraft in service today are in fact upgraded block 2B & 2 examples. There are additional funds as part of the 9 bln € deal to upgrade T1 & T2 aircraft. The P1E is also long funded and earlier T2 aircraft will be brought to that standard as T1 aircraft are brought to block 5 within the R2 programme.

Re: RE: Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2009, 08:02
by peterb
geogen wrote:Good assessment, Peterb. I think the current logic at least, is to hypothesize a future Euro mix of the latest 4.5 gen, F-35 and Euro-designed LO UCAV?


I've been looking at stealthy UCAV designs and this is clearly the way future combat aircraft design is going although I think a human pilot will nearly always be required.

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2009, 14:43
by bjr1028
peterb wrote:Somehow I think the European governments will continue to develop the Eurofighter Typhoon, they have too much invested in it. I can't see the RAF buying F-22 Raptors for example, great though it would be if the RAF had them. However much you criticise the Typhoon it IS a useful aircraft and will be in service for quite a while.


I can see them trying to export, but both the Germans and the Brits are trying to wiggle their way out of the advanced tranche 3. Considering how cheap the Euro governments are when it comes to defense, I could see the CEASAR AESA radar sparsely deployed and future upgrades to the eurojet engine not funded.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 08:44
by duplex
peterb wrote:Well the Typhoon is Europe's answer. How do you think it compares with it's rivals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFZcF17GJk





Typhoon must get an AESA and should be able to land on a carrier.
Otherwise it will have to fight for a very small market segment and remain pretty much a single mission fighter

High Altitude, + MACH 1,8 interception .. It's is probably the best in the world in this segment..

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 11:40
by shep1978
duplex wrote:
High Altitude, + MACH 1,8 interception .. It's is probably the best in the world in this segment..


If it were only intercepting defenceless bombers i'd have to agree with you, however its unlikely in this era that, for example, Russian bombers would be unescorted to the UK mainland. Typhoons unstealthy airframe is a big liability in such circumstances.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 12:10
by Scorpion82
duplex wrote:Typhoon must get an AESA and should be able to land on a carrier.
Otherwise it will have to fight for a very small market segment and remain pretty much a single mission fighter

High Altitude, + MACH 1,8 interception .. It's is probably the best in the world in this segment..


And why is carrier compatibility so important if perhaps a handful nations operates conventional aircraft carriers at all?

And the aircraft is no dedicated inteceptor for Mach 1.8 only.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 10:49
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:
And the aircraft is no dedicated inteceptor for Mach 1.8 only.


Well what else is it? Its no striker thats for sure, it can't even run OCA or escort missions over modern SAM defended hostile territory without being a liability thanks to its conventional design though it should be alright in low intensity COIN conflicts like Afghanistan :lol:
I think you need to get over it an realise it will never be much more than an interceptor for those that operate it as they know its weaknesses and are honest about them and like i said before even then itspotentially in serious trouble if escorted by Flanker varients.
I doubt it goes much more than M1.8 for more than a minute if at all with a full weapon load and also what is the highest speed an AMRAAM can be launched from a Typhoon, I have my doubts about any Mach 2+ AMRAAM launches though I admit I could be off there if someone can prove they've done M2 and M2+ launches off a Typhoon in trials.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 13:05
by ed.r.lee
Most of the times I stay away from "arguments" but here I can't help but wonder... what's the point of having the best fighter jet if it's being used to commit mass murder? :roll:

Egomaniac is always at work all over the world. I'm good, I'm better, I'm best. No, Mine is even better! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...

It's closer to reality who has more blood tainted on his hands. 8)

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 14:40
by fasteagle
Interesting view from ed.r.lee! Anyway, back to the point. I think we Brits have to accept we cannot afford to invest in super stealthy aircraft, even America can no longer afford them (400 Raptors reduced to less than 200). It is true to say it is late and hugely over budget, but look at F-35, getting ridiculously expensive now.

It is difficult to look ahead to future conflicts, and you need to strike a balance, how likely is it we will need to face an opponent with high level IADS, North Korea, Middle East or Afghanistan do not posses them, and i cant see us tangling with Russia (hopefully!). If we do, we will likely be doing it with the USA, who can tackle the high threats and we follow up in support.

Typhoon is ahead of teen series aircraft, both in aerodynamics and built in systems - most US aircraft appear to need bolt on ECM pods taking up a valuable hardpoint, although built in trailing decoys etc are used.

Just my thoughts. and like it or not, Typhoon is here to stay as one of the best options to those who cannot afford F-35s or downgraded export F-22s.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 15:26
by shep1978
ed.r.lee wrote:Most of the times I stay away from "arguments" but here I can't help but wonder... what's the point of having the best fighter jet if it's being used to commit mass murder? :roll:


Just a thought but perhaps you should get interested in civilian aircraft if WAR planes and what they're designed to do is to much for you to stomach...

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 15:33
by shep1978
fasteagle wrote:Typhoon is ahead of teen series aircraft, both in aerodynamics and built in systems - most US aircraft appear to need bolt on ECM pods taking up a valuable hardpoint, although built in trailing decoys etc are used.

Just my thoughts. and like it or not, Typhoon is here to stay as one of the best options to those who cannot afford F-35s or downgraded export F-22s.


F-35 won't be much if any more expensive than a Typhoon and is far more survivable too. I agree typhoon is fractionally ahead in terms of aerodynamics than teen series by a few percentage points but from what I understand the BL 60 F-16's and F-15SE are far more advanced in terms of avionics than a Typhoon. Heck, Typhoon doesn't even have an AESA and its sensor fusion is said to be very questionable according to those in the know from what i've read over on PPRUNE.
Also, Typhoon was designed to tangle with Russian jets, it was percieved as its main job and to say it'll never happen is something that those of us without crystal balls might just disagree with.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 17:09
by ed.r.lee
shep1978 wrote:
ed.r.lee wrote:Most of the times I stay away from "arguments" but here I can't help but wonder... what's the point of having the best fighter jet if it's being used to commit mass murder? :roll:


Just a thought but perhaps you should get interested in civilian aircraft if WAR planes and what they're designed to do is to much for you to stomach...


A friendly note though, I didn't indicate who or what or where. No need to be too defensive. :D Take a chill pill ya?

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 17:29
by shep1978
ed.r.lee wrote:A friendly note though, I didn't indicate who or what or where. No need to be too defensive. :D Take a chill pill ya?


I'm quite chilled actually,valium tends to have that effect and nowhere was I being defensive, all I did was to point out that if you find war planes so abhorent then perhaps its best to concentrate your mind on civilian aircraft. I shall say no more on the matter.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 17:34
by ed.r.lee
fasteagle wrote:I think we Brits have to accept we cannot afford to invest in super stealthy aircraft, even America can no longer afford them (400 Raptors reduced to less than 200). It is true to say it is late and hugely over budget, but look at F-35, getting ridiculously expensive now.


I think the Brits have done the right thing in controlling the funds being used to develop these. Not only in the money aspect but it's completely out of rationality that Brits will want to purchase F-35 but yet, not allowed to access the computers. If anybody thinking the rest of the world is stupid, certainly not so.

fasteagle wrote:It is difficult to look ahead to future conflicts, and you need to strike a balance, how likely is it we will need to face an opponent with high level IADS, North Korea, Middle East or Afghanistan do not posses them, and i cant see us tangling with Russia (hopefully!). If we do, we will likely be doing it with the USA, who can tackle the high threats and we follow up in support.


That's another high point you raised. Until today nobody (including US) can provide hard evidence that the claimed threats exist. Everything is perpetuated on assumptions and there are far too many examples of how "expert opinions" are seriously flawed and mis-interpreted.

fasteagle wrote:Just my thoughts. and like it or not, Typhoon is here to stay as one of the best options to those who cannot afford F-35s or downgraded export F-22s.


US has spent the previous decades "unifying" the world and most countries are dependent on her both in economical and military support. If there's a product that does the job equally well and cost a fraction of F-35's price, it's only natural some other parts of the world will begin to lean elsewhere. In this light, this is bad news to US manufacturers. But of course, we know for a fact that most arms deal are politically-influenced than real independent assessment.

For many "buy-American" advocates, this is a very painful truth to stomach.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 17:37
by ed.r.lee
shep1978 wrote:all I did was to point out that if you find war planes so abhorent


You miss my point so completely. And therefore...

shep1978 wrote:I shall say no more on the matter.


Yes, you better. 8)

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 18:07
by SpudmanWP
fasteagle wrote:Just my thoughts. and like it or not, Typhoon is here to stay as one of the best options to those who cannot afford F-35s or downgraded export F-22s.


What is the REC Flyaway cost of the EF? The F-35 is $133 mil today and will be below $100 mil within 2 years. Within 5 years it should be below $80 mil.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 18:57
by Scorpion82
SpudmanWP wrote:
fasteagle wrote:Just my thoughts. and like it or not, Typhoon is here to stay as one of the best options to those who cannot afford F-35s or downgraded export F-22s.


What is the REC Flyaway cost of the EF? The F-35 is $133 mil today and will be below $100 mil within 2 years. Within 5 years it should be below $80 mil.


About 53 mln € for T1, 55 mln for T2 and 58-59 mln for T3A.
T1 figure comes from a request from the german parliament. Second figure is the average (T2 total contract value/number of aircraft). The T3A figure was claimed in an article and source was named as Enzo Casolini (Eurofighter CEO).

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 19:26
by SpudmanWP
So at today's conversion rate, that's about $84 mil.

Does that include all the avionics, both engines, and a laser designator pod?

EADS's bid to India put the figure at $89 Mil WITHOUT AESA radar.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 19:47
by Scorpion82
SpudmanWP wrote:So at today's conversion rate, that's about $84 mil.

Does that include all the avionics, both engines, and a laser designator pod?

EADS's bid to India put the figure at $89 Mil WITHOUT AESA radar.


Austria actually paid 62.9 mln €, export customers have higher prices. It doesn't include an LDP, just the aircraft with engines and avionics.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 20:12
by SpudmanWP
So basically, for the next 3-4 years the EF will be cheaper, but after 2012-2013, the F-35 gets cheaper. This is especially true when you include the AESA, LDP, and maintenance costs.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 20:39
by Scorpion82
SpudmanWP wrote:So basically, for the next 3-4 years the EF will be cheaper, but after 2012-2013, the F-35 gets cheaper. This is especially true when you include the AESA, LDP, and maintenance costs.


Well we'll see wether the F-35 will be much cheaper anytime soon. And maintainance costs can't be compared right now. LM already promised the F-22 would be much more maintainance friendly, easier to support and cheaper to operate than the F-15. We've learned they didn't achieve their goals. Remains to be seen wether they can hold their promises on the F-35 with that regards. And you'd better hope that an aircraft going to be produced in the thousands finally turns out to be cheaper than an aircraft to be produced in a few hundreds.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2010, 14:46
by fasteagle
So just how good will the F-35 be without critical software included to export customers? UK, a joint developer, has already been denied mission critical items, so this whole argument toward it is a bit flawed with that considered!!! Personally, i would like to see UK dump F-35 and revert to an earlier idea to purchase F/A-18Es for Royal Navy carriers. For the RAF, why not have combat proven, cheaper aircraft in more numbers, such as blk 60 F-16 - it is good enough for wealthy Arab nations who can surely pick and choose from any aircraft available (Saudia Arabia has chosen Typhoon). These will compliment Typhoon, too.

Back to an earlier point, i hope it did not come accross that i think we will never face soviet aircraft, just those owned by Russia, anything is possible with dwindling gas reserves etc, though. Those operated by other nations are only a par to teen series and typhoon. Even Sukhoi admit the SU-27 must be heavily upgraded to compete.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2010, 15:34
by shep1978
fasteagle wrote: UK, a joint developer, has already been denied mission critical items


Not true, we have everything we need at this stage as can be seen by the latest statements on the subject.

http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=12 ... n=military

Quote FTA:
"The JSF is progressing well and the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme, and is confident that in future we will continue to receive the data needed to ensure that our requirements for operational sovereignty will be met," the MoD said in the statement. "This remains the basis of the agreements reached with the US in 2006."

Note "the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme"

BTW, we (UK) have no access and own non of the source code for our Apache's either. in short; It makes no difference.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2010, 16:16
by Scorpion82
More importantly it's not that the UK F-35s lack mission critical systems or software. Just the source codes won't be provided. That means the software is onboard, but you can't modify or change it by any means. Or in other words it's like with a PDF document you can read but which is password secured and doesn't allow you to edit the document.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2010, 16:56
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:More importantly it's not that the UK F-35s lack mission critical systems or software. Just the source codes won't be provided. That means the software is onboard, but you can't modify or change it by any means. Or in other words it's like with a PDF document you can read but which is password secured and doesn't allow you to edit the document.


You're getting carried away with a non story hyped up into something its not. Read this line again and think about it.

"the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme"

Notice the "at this stage of the program" part. Really, all you are doing at the moment is this

Image

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2010, 17:27
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:You're getting carried away with a non story hyped up into something its not. Read this line again and think about it.

"the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme"

Notice the "at this stage of the program" part. Really, all you are doing at the moment is this

Image


:?: Appears to be a comment just to have said something. :roll:
And no I'm not beating dead horses with a stick :P
"This line" doesn't tell us much at all and it first and foremost is no prove that the UK will ultimatley receive the source codes it demanded.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2010, 17:51
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:
:?: Appears to be a comment just to have said something. :roll:
And no I'm not beating dead horses with a stick :P
"This line" doesn't tell us much at all and it first and foremost is no prove that the UK will ultimatley receive the source codes it demanded.


Flogging a dead horse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse is what you're doing.
Just as there is no issue with UK Apache source codes there is also no issue with F-35 source codes. The statement I posted says it all very clearly for those who can comprehend it.
There is NO issue with the source code. End of story, case closed etc etc unless you want to continue to flog the dead horse that is...

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2010, 00:27
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:Flogging a dead horse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse is what you're doing.
Just as there is no issue with UK Apache source codes there is also no issue with F-35 source codes. The statement I posted says it all very clearly for those who can comprehend it.
There is NO issue with the source code. End of story, case closed etc etc unless you want to continue to flog the dead horse that is...


You don't understand what it's all about, but I don't care to explain because you don't want to hear it anyway. And you can spare me your semantics, if you can speak my language as I can yours let me know.

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2010, 09:20
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:
You don't understand what it's all about, but I don't care to explain because you don't want to hear it anyway.


Oh quite wrong, I understand exactly what it's about. It is about anti F-35 'critics' desperate to make a story out of nothing. Critics who don't know the facts and are therefore coming off looking pretty foolish when confronted with this statement by those who DO KNOW infinately more than them about the situation:

"the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme"

Give it up pal, your making a fool out of yourself banging on about nothing.

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2010, 13:56
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:
Scorpion82 wrote:
You don't understand what it's all about, but I don't care to explain because you don't want to hear it anyway.


Oh quite wrong, I understand exactly what it's about. It is about anti F-35 'critics' desperate to make a story out of nothing. Critics who don't know the facts and are therefore coming off looking pretty foolish when confronted with this statement by those who DO KNOW infinately more than them about the situation:

"the UK currently has the data needed at this stage of the programme"

Give it up pal, your making a fool out of yourself banging on about nothing.


Sorry but you understand nothing. The UK might have what it needs now, that doesn't mean they will receive the source codes demanded later on and the US has already made it clear that they won't release all source codes. Wether they will release sufficient source codes remains yet to be seen. Sure the UK will be able to operate the aircraft without source codes, but it will be reliant on the US for upgrades and that's where the UK wants a certain souvereignity. If the US doesn't allow that now the british were fauled by the last US government as the transmission of relevant source codes was a must meet condition to commit for the PSFD phase. As simple as that.

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2010, 14:26
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:
Sorry but you understand nothing. The UK might have what it needs now, that doesn't mean they will receive the source codes demanded later on and the US has already made it clear that they won't release all source codes. Wether they will release sufficient source codes remains yet to be seen. Sure the UK will be able to operate the aircraft without source codes, but it will be reliant on the US for upgrades and that's where the UK wants a certain souvereignity. If the US doesn't allow that now the british were fauled by the last US government as the transmission of relevant source codes was a must meet condition to commit for the PSFD phase. As simple as that.


I understand it totally unlike you; we the UK have everything we need at this stage of the program. Now, you might have a point if we didn't ever get that source code but as it is at this stage of the program we have everything we need. You are obviously hoping and wishing for source code to be an issue but it is not at the moment as has been stated over and over and over and over and over again by our people.
To argue otherwise makes you look immensly stupid and extremely troll-like to all that can comprehend what they read.

Just to note we in the UK as i've already mentioned do not have source code to our Apache's yet that is a non issue. You really need to stop being so incedibly biased. C-130J, C-17 , AIM-120 and Trident all fall in the same catagory as Apache too but only outrage about the F-35 source code I notice... :lol:

Give it up.

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2010, 15:06
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:I understand it totally unlike you; we the UK have everything we need at this stage of the program. Now, you might have a point if we didn't ever get that source code but as it is at this stage of the program we have everything we need. You are obviously hoping and wishing for source code to be an issue but it is not at the moment as has been stated over and over and over and over and over again by our people.
To argue otherwise makes you look immensly stupid and extremely troll-like to all that can comprehend what they read.

Just to note we in the UK as i've already mentioned do not have source code to our Apache's yet that is a non issue. You really need to stop being so incedibly biased. C-130J, C-17 , AIM-120 and Trident all fall in the same catagory as Apache too but only outrage about the F-35 source code I notice... :lol:

Give it up.


I give up nothing, just because you ignorant chap are incapble to get the point I won't shut up to your pleasure.
If you would actually bother to comprehend what other people say you might get behint it, but you don't and instead continue with your meaningless brabbling.

This has nothing to do with bias, anti critics or hoping for anything. And the situation isn't compareable to the purchase of the C-130J, C-17, AIM-120 or whatever US equipment the UK procured before, because all of this equipment is directly purchased off the shelve. In the case of the JSF programme the UK is a partner, not someone, but the oldest, largest and sole tier 1 partner. They are involved in the development and manufacturing processes and spent quite some money for their involvment. It's just understandable that they aren't going to accept as being treated like a foreign purchaser who hasn't contributed anything to the programme so your comparison is moot to say the least. Their commitment to the PSFD phase was made on base of the US government's promise to release the source codes required to maintain and upgrade the UK's F-35 fleet independently from the US. It's fine that they have what they need now, but that doesn't answer the question wether they'll get what they were promised to get before and all those reports doesn't sound to encouraging. If it turns out that the UK will finally get what they are asked for the better, if not the US would have fooled them.

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2010, 15:56
by shep1978
"JSF is progressing well and the UK currently has the JSF data needed at this stage of the programme, and is confident that in future we will continue to receive the data needed to ensure that our requirements for Operational Sovereignty will be met.

This remains the basis of the agreements reached with the US in 2006. " -
Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued Dec. 1, 2009

Stop being a clown.

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2010, 14:13
by fasteagle
Just been reading about Tiffie vs F-35 in the F-35 section of the forum - seems to be a parrallel discussion going on :)

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2010, 13:55
by shep1978
Good point fasteagle, lets get back to the Typhoon topic.

Latest news is Typhoon got a sound thrashing over in the Al Dahfra excersises. Truck loads of of excuses are being rolled out for the poor performance against the Rafale with promisises by highly questionable pro-Typhoon journalists (undoubtable on the BAE payroll in my opinion) that "the truth will be revealed" but at the moment it does seem Typhoon is nothing like as impressive as it was made out to be and Rafale a far better performer than made out to be.

A weak excuse of an email has been sent by the Eurofighter GmbH trying to deny/excuse away the result but it'd be a complete double standard to believe them, afterall, anything from LM, Boeing or the USAF is an outright lie so the same applies here :lol: :lol:

All in all it's a very interesting and rather amusing story worth watching as it unfolds...

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2010, 17:54
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:Good point fasteagle, lets get back to the Typhoon topic.

Latest news is Typhoon got a sound thrashing over in the Al Dahfra excersises. Truck loads of of excuses are being rolled out for the poor performance against the Rafale with promisises by highly questionable pro-Typhoon journalists (undoubtable on the BAE payroll in my opinion) that "the truth will be revealed" but at the moment it does seem Typhoon is nothing like as impressive as it was made out to be and Rafale a far better performer than made out to be.

A weak excuse of an email has been sent by the Eurofighter GmbH trying to deny/excuse away the result but it'd be a complete double standard to believe them, afterall, anything from LM, Boeing or the USAF is an outright lie so the same applies here :lol: :lol:

All in all it's a very interesting and rather amusing story worth watching as it unfolds...


So you admit you are admitting and spreading outright lies? :lol:
And what exactly has Rafale vs Typhoon do to with the discussion about Typhoon and F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2010, 18:52
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote:
So you admit you are admitting and spreading outright lies? :lol:
And what exactly has Rafale vs Typhoon do to with the discussion about Typhoon and F-35?


LOL :lol:
Do you follow me round the forums trying to pick holes in my posts, sure feels that way but no, I have made no admission of telling tall tales, merely repeating what i've read elsewhere.
Oh BTW, you must have slipped on your nit picking game because this is not the Typhoon vs F-35 thread, thats up in the F-35 forum section... :lol:

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2010, 20:28
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:LOL :lol:
Do you follow me round the forums trying to pick holes in my posts, sure feels that way but no, I have made no admission of telling tall tales, merely repeating what i've read elsewhere.
Oh BTW, you must have slipped on your nit picking game because this is not the Typhoon vs F-35 thread, thats up in the F-35 forum section... :lol:


I could say the same about you :-p. You are right this isn't the Eurofighter vs F-35 topic my bad, but funny enough it ended up to be something like that and you contributed quite a lot to that.

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2010, 21:54
by shep1978
Scorpion82 wrote: You are right this isn't the Eurofighter vs F-35 topic my bad, but funny enough it ended up to be something like that and you contributed quite a lot to that.


Ok lets see, start with post #1 in which topic starter Peter G asks the question "Well the Typhoon is Europe's answer. How do you think it compares with it's rivals?"
I than replied on post #4 explaining that whilst typhoon compares well to other 4th gen fighters I thought it was an unwise buy for the UK and not fit for high threat conflicts.
Lo and behold post #5 you are there again within an hour or so rebutting my posts in an unhappy manner full of sarcasm as i'd seemingly insulted your favourite fighter by pointing out its shortcomings. We had a few back and forth posts and that was that.
Then we had the F-35 source code non-story that you got upset over after being shown official statements showing that it was nonsense.

Anyway, all in all I don't think it was unfair to compare the F-35 to the Typhoon especially considering the thread was started by someone wanting to know how it compares with it's rivals. So for you to say I contributed quite a lot to that, as in implying that I caused a massive derail of the thread is really rather silly as you have contributed just as much, read back through and see for yourself, post #1 would be a good starting point....

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2010, 23:08
by Scorpion82
shep1978 wrote:I than replied on post #4 explaining that whilst typhoon compares well to other 4th gen fighters I thought it was an unwise buy for the UK and not fit for high threat conflicts.

Lo and behold post #5 you are there again within an hour or so rebutting my posts in an unhappy manner full of sarcasm as i'd seemingly insulted your favourite fighter by pointing out its shortcomings. We had a few back and forth posts and that was that.


That is the simplified version leaving out the relevant details. I was explaining to you the status of potential enemies and that the Typhoon is actually not an entirely useless asset as you appear to think it is.

Then we had the F-35 source code non-story that you got upset over after being shown official statements showing that it was nonsense.


I didn't got upset and explicitely said:
"Wether they will release sufficient source codes remains yet to be seen...If the US doesn't allow


And being confident as claimed in the press release is fine, but is no guarantee that it will happen in the end. I haven't said it won't happen, but explained the problems if it doesn't happen and given the complaints over the years one wonders from where they come and wether it must be all lies or has a certain substance.

Anyway, all in all I don't think it was unfair to compare the F-35 to the Typhoon especially considering the thread was started by someone wanting to know how it compares with it's rivals. So for you to say I contributed quite a lot to that, as in implying that I caused a massive derail of the thread is really rather silly as you have contributed just as much, read back through and see for yourself, post #1 would be a good starting point....


It was just a hint at that "this is not the Eurofighter vs F-35 thread", which is indeed true, though matters concerning both aircraft including comparisons in some fields were included. So in the end it turned out to be a bit a F-35/Eurofighter topic being discussed. I didn't said I haven't contributed to that.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 00:56
by spazsinbad
Five page PDF article about Spanish Typhoons & upgrades from AirForces Monthly Magazine Oct 2019 No.379
Spanish ‘spaceships’: Honing the Typhoon [Ejército del Aire Eurofighters]
Oct 2019 Salvador Mafé Huertas

"The Typhoon is proving a formidable combat aircraft for the Spanish Air Force and has completely replaced the Mirage F1. The air force is mastering its swing-role capabilities, embarking on an ambitious upgrade programme and even eyeing further orders, as Salvador Mafé Huertas reveals...."

Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine Oct 2019 No.379

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 12:57
by vilters
Servicable is one thing.
Flyable is another thing.
Combat ready is yet something else.

Facts and figures about "Combat ready" are the only ones that count.

Germany needed 128 of them to get 4 (four) combat ready.

Documented facts and figures please.
All the rest are just blanco words in a forum.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 14:20
by mixelflick
From the outside looking in, Typhoon seems to have succeeded in its design objective - be capable of dispatching members of the Flanker family. Initially...

But those pesky Russians/Chinese continue to incrementally upgrade them with thrust vectoring, more powerful engines, longer ranged weapons and improved radars. Typhoon was slow to integrate an AESA and Meteor, although that's apparently (finally) happening. As it stands today, I'd say the two are much closer to a draw in capability vs. one holding distinct advantages vs. the other.

I'd also agree Typhoon doesn't hold significant advantages vs. say, upgraded F-15's. The F-15SA/QA rolling off production lines now is at least as good in the air to air realm, and vastly superior in the strike fighter role. A look at the Saudi inventory is quite telling..

F-15S/SA 167 (25 more on order)
F-15C 61
Typhoon 72

Now let's look at Quatar..

F-15QA 72
Typhoon 24

Quatar is an even more telling case, given they also operate the Rafale. On original order for 24 was placed, and a second order was placed for 12 more. The option for 36 more is still pending..

So of the air arms in the middle east with the $, we see significant interest/fielding of the F-15, some interest in the Typhoon and after they got their hands on both, Quatar opting for more Rafale's - not more Typhoons.

BOTTOM LINE

Typhoon is a very capable 4+ gen fighter, which should be able to hold its own vs. Russian/Chinese models. Mix in some S-400 batteries though and a squadron or two of SU-57's, and it's going to be a long day for Typhoon and its pilots..

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 19:33
by marsavian
Typhoon has not been designed well for the strike role with its fuel tank wing store being the only heavy wing store capable of carrying cruise missiles leading to an either choice between the two. Also only light supersonic fuel tanks have been developed so far so it really is only a light strike fighter, Rafale embarrasses it with all of its air to ground options and fully utilizes the capacity of the twin engined airframe of its class unlike Typhoon. Typhoon really still after all this time primarily only shines as a fast interceptor.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 19:56
by inst
How much has AMK improved the Typhoon's maneuverability? I'm interested in it due to its similarity to the J-20 planform, which is also a long-coupled lerx canard with strakes, although the Eurofighter lacks ventrals.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 20:14
by sprstdlyscottsmn
currently it HASN'T improved the maneuverability as no one has PURCHASED them. In testing ... “We saw angle-of-attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility,” says Eurofighter project pilot Raffaele Beltrame. “The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more manoeuvrability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations."

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 20:58
by marsavian
I suspect new German Typhoons will have AMK as it was primarily their development.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150715200 ... completed/

The Aerodynamic Modification Kit (AMK) is part of a wider Eurofighter Enhanced Manoeuvrability (EFEM) programme with the potential to help ensure the type’s continuing superiority for many years to come.

It entails primarily the addition of fuselage strakes and leading-edge root extensions, which increase the maximum lift created by the wing by 25% - resulting in an increased turn rate, tighter turning radius, and improved nose-pointing ability at low speed – all critical fighter capabilities in air-to-air combat.

The introduction of the AMK will not only enhance the Eurofighter’s current capability as a swing-role fighter-bomber, but will provide additional growth potential, enabling easier integration of future air–to-surface configurations and much more flexible applications, vastly enhancing the aircraft’s mission effectiveness in the air-to-surface role.

Eurofighter Project Pilot Germany Raffaele Beltrame said: “This programme has been a tremendous success with very impressive results – in some areas even better than we expected.

“We saw angle of attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility. The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more manoeuvrability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations. And it is extremely interesting to consider the potential benefits in the air-to-surface configuration thanks to the increased variety and flexibility of stores that can be carried.

“It´s right to say that the EFEM/AMK work has allowed us to discover a new aircraft with much higher performance and greater potential to meet the challenges of the years ahead.”

The flight trials followed some five years of studies. Eurofighter test pilots, joined in the latter stages by operational pilots from Germany, Italy and the UK, completed 36 sorties from Manching, Germany on the IPA7 Instrumented Production Aircraft.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rm-401344/

Separately, Eurofighter is also updating its aerodynamics, promising to improve the combat aircraft’s subsonic turn rate by 15%. By year-end it expects to make is final proof-of-concept test flight on an aerodynamic modification kit including leading edge root extensions and extended trailing edge flaps. The kit also features reshaped side-of-cockpit ILS antennae covers, turning them into 70° delta strakes.

Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 21:35
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Until I see a funded "AMK will be included in this countries upgrade" I don;t assume anything.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 21:43
by falcon.16
marsavian wrote:Typhoon has not been designed well for the strike role with its fuel tank wing store being the only heavy wing store capable of carrying cruise missiles leading to an either choice between the two. Also only light supersonic fuel tanks have been developed so far so it really is only a light strike fighter, Rafale embarrasses it with all of its air to ground options and fully utilizes the capacity of the twin engined airframe of its class unlike Typhoon. Typhoon really still after all this time primarily only shines as a fast interceptor.


I thinl that Typhoon and rafale bring similar air to ground payload. Around 10.000 kgs.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 22:29
by marsavian
Typhoon can carry 7,500 kg of total payload above its fueled weight which will obviously include AAMs and EFTs. Rafale can carry 9,500 kg of total payload above its fueled weight with 85% of the Typhoon thrust. Which is the more efficient design as regards stores ?

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2019, 23:54
by falcon.16
marsavian wrote:Typhoon can carry 7,500 kg of total payload above its fueled weight which will obviously include AAMs and EFTs. Rafale can carry 9,500 kg of total payload above its fueled weight with 85% of the Typhoon thrust. Which is the more efficient design as regards stores ?


I though it was similar payload. How can be so much diference?

Here, it tells 6500 kg for Typhoon, it is 3000 kgs less than Rafale. And really i think Rafale is smaller than Typhoon.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 00:03
by sprstdlyscottsmn
falcon.16 wrote:
marsavian wrote:Typhoon can carry 7,500 kg of total payload above its fueled weight which will obviously include AAMs and EFTs. Rafale can carry 9,500 kg of total payload above its fueled weight with 85% of the Typhoon thrust. Which is the more efficient design as regards stores ?


I though it was similar payload. How can be so much diference?

Here, it tells 6500 kg for Typhoon, it is 3000 kgs less than Rafale. And really i think Rafale is smaller than Typhoon.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

I'ts not about total size, it's about design of the hardpoints and design gross weight.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 19 Oct 2019, 21:11
by marsavian
Final 160th RAF Typhoon delivered (in service numbers around 130-140 as Tranche 1 two seaters already turned into spares)

https://theaviationist.com/2019/10/03/f ... air-force/

Future updates


Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2019, 11:10
by marsavian

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2019, 11:32
by hornetfinn
marsavian wrote:EuroDASS unveils plan for new Typhoon DASS/EW suite


It'd be quite important as EW suite was said to be weak point for EF Typhoon compared to Rafale and Gripen in Swiss evaluation ten years ago. It's just rather old design which limits performance and upgrade options.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2019, 19:19
by marsavian
Berlin targets Eurofighter AESA deal and top-up buy

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... uy-462067/

Germany appears poised to advance a joint programme with Spain to equip the nations’ later-model Eurofighters with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, as Berlin also nears approving the acquisition of 38 new aircraft to replace its Tranche 1-standard interceptors.

A deal should be finalised late this year or in early 2020 with deliveries for both nations to commence in 2022. To be supplied by the Leonardo-led Euroradar consortium, the new “E-Scan Mk1” radar sets will be retrofitted to 110 Tranche 2 and 3 jets for Germany, while Spain plans to acquire an initial batch of 19 units.

Rossner notes that export buyers Kuwait and Qatar will receive Eurofighter Typhoons with “Mk1A” radars, with the German and Spanish configuration differing through the use of new multi-channel receiver technology. He indicates that the UK plans to field a future “Mk2” sensor optimised for electronic warfare tasks to complement operations with its Lockheed Martin F-35s.

Longer term, Airbus is pursuing a requirement to replace the German air force’s Panavia Tornado fleet by 2030. It is proposing to supply 45 Eurofighters with “strategic capabilities” – including nuclear weapons – and 40 in an electronic combat reconnaissance/suppression of enemy air-defence configuration suitable for use in an escort jammer role.


Image

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 15:56
by swiss
Interview with a German Typhoon Pilot.

I dint know the EF can do 9g with 2 bags. Also very impressive from 200 kt to supersonic in 5 sec at 200 Ft!? :shock:


Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2020, 23:54
by marsavian
First Kuwaiti-configured Eurofighter makes maiden flight

https://www.janes.com/article/93608/fir ... den-flight

The first Eurofighter combat aircraft configured for Kuwait made its maiden flight towards the end of 2019, the company announced.

Instrumented Series Production Aircraft (ISPA 6), equipped with the Kuwait Air Force configuration, departed the Flight Test Centre of Leonardo Aircraft Division in Turin-Caselle on 23 December 2019, Eurofighter tweeted on 9 January.

As noted by Eurofighter, ISPA 6 is the most advanced iteration of the aircraft to date, and while other elements have previously been flight tested, this is the first time that all of the enhancements have been brought together.

ISPA 6 is the first to fly the Captor E-Scan Radar with Phase Enhancement 3 b (P3Eb), for which Kuwait is to be the launch customer. Other enhancements for Kuwait include the Lockheed Martin Sniper advanced targeting pod, the introduction of the DRS-Cubic ACMI P5 combat training pod and an enhanced Very High Frequency (VHF) Omni-Directional Range (VOR) navigation aid. The Kuwait Air Force will also have the option to employ the MBDA Storm Shadow cruise missile, MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile, and the MBDA Brimstone low-yield air-to-surface missile.


https://mobile.twitter.com/eurofighter/ ... 3969796097
https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-ev ... ever-flown

On the 23rd December 2019 at the Flight Test Centre of Leonardo Aircraft Division in Turin-Caselle, the first Instrumented Series Production Aircraft (ISPA 6) equipped with the Kuwait Air Force configuration has successfully completed its first flight.

The aircraft is the first to fly the innovative Captor E-Scan Radar with Phase Enhancement P3Eb, and is a key milestone for the entry into service of Eurofighter with the State of Kuwait.

This standard is the most advanced variant of the fighter jet ever made, with a package of capabilities that builds effectively on existing enhancement programmes.

A contract for the supply of 28 Eurofighter Typhoon multi-role fighter aircraft was signed between the Ministry of Defence of the State of Kuwait and Leonardo (on 05 April 2016) through its Aircraft Division acting as Eurofighter Prime Contractor Organisation.

With Captor E-Scan radar and several new additions to the weapon system, this variant will put the Kuwait Air Force at the front-line of the fighter technology when the aircraft will enter into service with the State of Kuwait in 2020.

While other aircraft in different Eurofighter Partner Companies are testing specific parts of this configuration, including the development of the E-Scan radar in UK and Germany, this is the first flight of the entire package that will be delivered to Kuwait.

The capability package for Kuwait includes the integration of Storm Shadow and Brimstone and other air-to-surface weapons. Moreover it foresees the integration of a new advanced laser designator pod (the Lockheed Martin Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod) that will expand Eurofighter’s portfolio of cleared laser designator pods; the introduction of the DRS-Cubic ACMI P5 combat training pod and an enhanced navigation aid (VOR).

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 00:00
by sprstdlyscottsmn
sadly still no mention of AMK

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 00:04
by marsavian
If the Germans don't order it on their new ones AMK is dead as it was their development.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 14:35
by hythelday
With Captor E-Scan radar and several new additions to the weapon system, this variant will put the Kuwait Air Force at the front-line of the fighter technology when the aircraft will enter into service with the State of Kuwait in 2020.


Didn't know that fielding an AESA later than the US, Japan, France, Israel and China makes a fighter front-line tech. Russian avionics are apparently the benchmark in Eurofighter PR department.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2020, 17:36
by marsavian
Deliveries to Eurofighter partner nations near conclusion

https://www.janes.com/article/93771/del ... conclusion

The programme-of-record (PoR) for the four Eurofighter partner nations will shortly be concluded, with the final two air forces set to receive their last aircraft imminently, a company spokesperson told Jane’s on 17 January.

With the United Kingdom and Germany having received their final Tranche 3 Eurofighters in September and December 2019 respectively, handover of Spain’s last aircraft “is now in process”, while Italy’s “is having its final screws tightened”, the representative said.

Excluding the Tranche 3B lot, which was not taken up by the nations, the PoR stands at 160 aircraft for the UK, 143 for Germany, 96 for Italy, and 73 for Spain. Added to these are export orders amounting to 15 aircraft for Austria, 28 for Kuwait, 12 for Oman, 72 for Saudi Arabia, and 24 for Qatar. In total, 623 have been ordered.

While the partner PoR is concluding, deliveries to Kuwait and Qatar have yet to commence. As such, the national production lines at Warton in the UK, Manching in Germany, Italy in Caselle, and Spain in Getafe will continue to manufacture parts for these customers, with final assembly taking place at Warton for Qatar and at Caselle for Kuwait.

Further to these final current orders, Germany is expected to sign for 38 new-build Tranche 3 Eurofighters to replace its 32 early Tranche 1 aircraft. Project Quadriga will see the Luftwaffe receive active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar-equipped Eurofighters (while Airbus previously referred to these as Tranche 3 jets, lately officials have termed them Tranche 4).

Following on from Project Quadriga, Germany has a Tornado replacement requirement that, if successful, could see Eurofighter provide an additional 85 aircraft to the Luftwaffe. Also, Germany has made an electronic attack commitment to NATO, known as the Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum (luWES) programme, which could add another 12 aircraft on top.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2020, 22:08
by vilters
I hope Germany is smarter then to buy extra Tiffy's.

Unless, the need paperweights. :-)

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2020, 00:21
by marsavian
France insists, anything but the F-35 ;).

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2020, 06:30
by marsavian
Spain receives first upgraded Tranche 1 Eurofighter

https://www.janes.com/article/86847/spa ... urofighter

The Spanish Air Force (Ejército del Aire Español [EdAE]) has received the first of 15 upgraded Tranche 1 (T1) Eurofighter combat aircraft from Airbus, the company announced on 25 February 2019.

The single-seat aircraft (serial SS003) was re-delivered to the EdAE from Airbus' Getafe facility near Madrid following the introduction of hardware modifications, which support the Operational Flight Program 02 (OFP-02) upgrade plan developed by Spain's Armament and Experimental Logistics Centre (CLAEX).

As noted by Airbus, as part of the upgrade T2 and T3 equipment was fitted to the T1 aircraft, including a computer symbol generator, a digital video and voice recorder, a laser designator pod, and a maintenance data panel.

This first single-seat Eurofighter, along with a two-seat aircraft currently undergoing the upgrade, will be used initially by CLAEX as test platforms for the qualification of these new capabilities that will be implemented on the EdAE's T1 Eurofighters.

The Eurofighter T1 upgrade is part of a wider modernisation plan for the EdAE's combat fleet that is called Road Map 2035++. Speaking at the IQPC International Fighter Conference in Berlin in late 2018, Brigadier General Leon-Antonio Machés Michavila noted that this roadmap plans to take Eurofighter T1+ capability upgrades out to the early 2030s for an out-of-service date (OSD) of about 2040. For the T2/3 Eurofighters, Spain plans a mid-life upgrade (MLU) to be developed from 2021 and to run through to 2032, for an OSD beyond 2045. Alongside these Eurofighter plans, the Road Map 2035++ also includes the Boeing EF-18 Hornet, which has an OSD planned for about 2032.

Running concurrent to its upgrade plans, Spain has joined the Franco-German effort to develop a Next-Generation Fighter (NGF) as part of a wider Future Combat Air System (FCAS). A release of a common operational document is expected in about 2020.


From last year but notable in that this is the only Tranche 1 upgrade ever attempted.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2020, 11:02
by zero-one
https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-f ... t-veteran/

Typhoon vs Rafale
Pierre-Henri ‘Até’ Chuet wrote:“I don’t know why they’re compared so often – it’s really not the same design, ideas or philosophy. We’re a truly omnirole platform. Typhoons are great, they like to use their big engines at 40,000 feet. I can’t count how many times I’ve shot down Typhoons at 45,000 feet in the contrails. And my radar off, everything off, I was coming from 100 feet below, supersonic in the climb from below. Absolutely undetected. So I have absolutely no fear of the Typhoons. Both the tactics used by the Typhoons, the agility and the cockpit of the aircraft make it easier for us to take the advantage — basically we have better fusion of the sensors — so we can be way more aggressive in terms of tactics. It’s a great aircraft at high level, but we’re not dumb enough to try to fight Typhoons at 50,000 feet or 45,000 feet. We’re going to put them outside their comfort zone. Against devious tactics. Now if you want to rate a Typhoon with AMRAAMs against a Rafale at 50,000 ft, then, yeah, Typhoon is going to have better performances for sure. But as a Rafale pilot, I’m stupid if I take him on like that, so I’m going to move the combat a bit. I’ll fake a combat at 50,000 feet and I’m going to send a guy sneakily low level to surprise the Typhoon, it’s more easy than you think!”


“The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2020, 07:34
by hythelday
Eurofighter flight trials continue with E-SCAN radar
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/eurofig ... can-radar/

...ISPA 6 is one of the three EF Typhoon test aircraft equipped with the Electronic Scan Radar made by the EuroRadar Consortium, led by Leonardo UK in Edinburgh, and it’s currently allocated to the EF/NETMA P3Eb (Eurofighter Consortium/NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency – Phase 3 Enhancements Package b) development programme to perform E-SCAN Entry Into Service flight tests and provide final clearance to the Kuwait customer....

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2020, 02:31
by talkitron
The July 2020 issue of Air International has an article "Typhoon eyes the future" about future upgrades of the Typhoon. It is good to get the information in one place. Here is a summary.

1. The UK Project Centurion (Meteor, Brimstone, Storm Shadow) is being copied or integrated by other partner countries. For example, Germany might instead add JDAM bombs and Taurus cruise missiles.

2. Germany will order Mk1 AESA radars, like Kuwait has (the German order was approved in a parliamentary committee today).
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKBN23O2HB

3. Spain might get the same Mk1 AESA radar for its 18 Tranche 3 jets.

4. The German replacement for Tranche 1 jets, now called Tranche 4 or Quadriga, will be the basis for the proposal for Switzerland to buy Eurofighters. A joint purchase between Germany and Switzerland is possible.

5. The UK is developing a Mk 2 AESA radar, which will be part of the offer to Finland from BAe. The Mk2 radar would be installed on only the 40 UK Tranche 3 jets.

6. The UK wants a new helmet, Striker II, which works at night without night vision goggles.

7. There is an ongoing Long Term Evolution study by the four partner nations. Possible Long Term Evolution changes include upgrades to the engine, the Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub System, and the controls / pilot interface. There is also the possibility of adding an Aerodynamic Modification Kit, which among other things could double the number of air-to-air missiles that could be carried.

8. The next UK upgrade package is Project Janus, which aims to "further refine the HMI [Human, Machine Interface], DASS [Defensive Aids Sub System], add Litening 5 [targeting pod] and improve the IFF." This is more of a 2025 timeframe, compared to the farther out LTE, and presumably would be part of the Finnish offer.

9. More speculatively, Spain might also order new Eurofighters to replace its non-super Hornets. The various German programs to order more Eurofighters (replacing German Tranche 1 jets and Tornados) makes Spain ordering more more likely.

10. Finally, although not part of the article, there are news stories about Egypt ordering 24 Eurofighters from Italy as part of a bigger arms deal involving ships.
http://alert5.com/2020/06/02/la-republi ... 24-m-346s/

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2020, 11:21
by sprstdlyscottsmn
All that and AMK is still just a possibility.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2020, 16:42
by talkitron
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:All that and AMK is still just a possibility.


Since it is part of the LTE study, it probably needs buy in from more than one of the partner nations.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2020, 06:56
by hythelday
Some EF2000 news:

Airbus signs contract for integration of 115 new Eurofighter ESCAN radars
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-radars/

Airbus has been awarded a contract for the development, supply and integration of 115 Eurofighter ESCAN Radars for the German and Spanish Eurofighter fleet.


The Brits are going with their separate "superior" E-Scan model, so not part of this contract, but there are some Typhoon news too:

UK-Qatari joint Typhoon squadron commences flying
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-qata ... es-flying/

With deliveries commencing in 2022, the aircraft are part of a £5.1 billion deal between BAE Systems and the Government of Qatar. The flags of both nations were raised at RAF Coningsby this week as Typhoons with new Squadron markings flew for the first time, signalling the Squadron’s readiness to train pilots and ground crew from both air forces.

[...]

No. 12 Squadron is the first Joint Squadron in the RAF since the Battle of Britain in the Second World War.


RAF presser: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-q ... t-squadron

There have also recently been some unsourced claims about Egypt considering Eurofighters (from Italy). I secretly want to see them come true, as well as the alleged Su-35 deal, so that Egyptian Air Force can truly become the zoo of modern fighters.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2020, 07:01
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:
There have also recently been some unsourced claims about Egypt considering Eurofighters (from Italy). I secretly want to see them come true, as well as the alleged Su-35 deal, so that Egyptian Air Force can truly become the zoo of modern fighters.



Hardly, matters as none of them. Are going to be much help against Israeli F-35I Adirs! :twisted:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2020, 15:59
by mixelflick
hythelday wrote:Some EF2000 news:

Airbus signs contract for integration of 115 new Eurofighter ESCAN radars
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-radars/

Airbus has been awarded a contract for the development, supply and integration of 115 Eurofighter ESCAN Radars for the German and Spanish Eurofighter fleet.


The Brits are going with their separate "superior" E-Scan model, so not part of this contract, but there are some Typhoon news too:

UK-Qatari joint Typhoon squadron commences flying
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-qata ... es-flying/

With deliveries commencing in 2022, the aircraft are part of a £5.1 billion deal between BAE Systems and the Government of Qatar. The flags of both nations were raised at RAF Coningsby this week as Typhoons with new Squadron markings flew for the first time, signalling the Squadron’s readiness to train pilots and ground crew from both air forces.

[...]

No. 12 Squadron is the first Joint Squadron in the RAF since the Battle of Britain in the Second World War.


RAF presser: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-q ... t-squadron

There have also recently been some unsourced claims about Egypt considering Eurofighters (from Italy). I secretly want to see them come true, as well as the alleged Su-35 deal, so that Egyptian Air Force can truly become the zoo of modern fighters.


Egypt vs. Quatar would be interesting, LOL

Typhoons, Rafales, F-15QA, Mirage 2000, F-16's, Mig-21's, 29's, Mig-35, SU-35 etc all mixing it up. It's a shame Egypt doesn't still fly Foxbats :). I'd think the Israeli's would have a field day "watching' events unfold in its F-35's...

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2020, 21:17
by talkitron
Here is a Spanish language article on developments of the Eurofighter in the Spanish Air Force. Use Google Chrome to translate it. Key points:

1. 20 brand new Eurofighters for mid decade, to replace non-super F/A-18s

2. Halcon program to match capabilities of the Hornets that are not currently on the Eurofighters, like the earlier British Centurion program to replace the Tornado

3. Five AESA radars ordered (with Germany a few weeks ago), with a possibility for seventeen more for Spain.

4. Sixteen tranche 1 Eurofighters getting subset of tranche 2,3 upgrades

https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2020/07/ ... um=twitter

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2020, 17:26
by mixelflick
All these ugrades are great, but it really seems like the Typhoon is speeding into an early retirement.

The more F-35's proliferate, the more Typhoon looks like yesterday's news. Don't get me wrong - LOVE the aircraft. Has all of the attributes of a superior air superiority machine. But it just seems stuck in that late 90's/canard loving era where the world of military aviation began to shift its foundations.

Designed to defeat the Fulcrum/Flanker, I'm confident they succeeded. Typhoon is even more than a match for the latest iterations, the Mig-35 and SU-35 (don't tell militarywatch though, lol). But it almost seems like the F-22 in that.... Typhoon will never see widespread combat. Meaning air to air combat. Two of the greatest air to air machines ever created, and it's possible they were SO good - not a single air to air munition will be fired in anger.

That's a tremendous accomplishment IMO, but will be lost on others. Including people that should know better, like Congressmen :(

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2020, 19:29
by madrat
Typhoon is fast becoming irrelevant due to neglect.

I wouldn't put it into the same category as something like the EE Lightning where its performance in its twilight was still good enough to give modern aircraft reasons to respect them. The EE Lightning was maintained and ready to go if necessary.

Unfortunately, the readiness rate of Typhoon is beginning to resemble something from MiG.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 01:55
by talkitron
The Typhoon is used every week or so for ground attack missions, largely the RAF from Cyprus. The Typhoon will be the main fighter in the four partner nations for at least twenty years.

Is the F-35 better at most tasks? Sure.

We will see if the Typhoon wins more export orders. It is pretty popular in the Middle East, with Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Oman and maybe in the near future Egypt buying some. Some of those could get into fights with, say, Iranian or even Turkish planes.

Typhoons would have to be used in a war between NATO and Russia, as you cannot throw out the air forces of four of the five largest Western European countries (France has a similar issue). A war is not likely but not impossible.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 03:37
by Corsair1963
talkitron wrote:The Typhoon is used every week or so for ground attack missions, largely the RAF from Cyprus. The Typhoon will be the main fighter in the four partner nations for at least twenty years.

Is the F-35 better at most tasks? Sure.

We will see if the Typhoon wins more export orders. It is pretty popular in the Middle East, with Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Oman and maybe in the near future Egypt buying some. Some of those could get into fights with, say, Iranian or even Turkish planes.

Typhoons would have to be used in a war between NATO and Russia, as you cannot throw out the air forces of four of the five largest Western European countries (France has a similar issue). A war is not likely but not impossible.



I wouldn't expect to see more export orders for the Typhoon. Unless, you include Germany.....Which, has far more to do with internal matters. Than based on any true merit....

As for the Gulf States...maybe but the odds are declining by the day. As they have more than sufficient number of 4.5 Generation Fighters already. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see some push for the F-35 shortly. While, US President Trump is still in office and eager to sell anything American for a price!

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 15:55
by talkitron
Corsair1963 wrote:I wouldn't expect to see more export orders for the Typhoon. Unless, you include Germany.....Which, has far more to do with internal matters. Than based on any true merit....


I mentioned the rumors about Egypt and there are long delayed procurements in India and Malaysia where the Typhoon is competing. It's a longshot only in competitions where it faces the F-35.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 17:37
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:While, US President Trump is still in office and eager to sell anything American for a price!


He's hardly unique in that regard. :roll:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 19:39
by talkitron
Here is an article clarifying, a little, the confusing mess of AESA radars for the Typhoon.

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... three.html

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2020, 02:13
by talkitron
Here is a better article on the three different Typhoon AESA radars, with more of a UK perspective.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... better-one

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 21:00
by nutshell
talkitron wrote:The Typhoon is used every week or so for ground attack missions, largely the RAF from Cyprus. The Typhoon will be the main fighter in the four partner nations for at least twenty years.

Is the F-35 better at most tasks? Sure.

We will see if the Typhoon wins more export orders. It is pretty popular in the Middle East, with Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Oman and maybe in the near future Egypt buying some. Some of those could get into fights with, say, Iranian or even Turkish planes.

Typhoons would have to be used in a war between NATO and Russia, as you cannot throw out the air forces of four of the five largest Western European countries (France has a similar issue). A war is not likely but not impossible.


Ok i wanna debunk the "neglect" argument, because i've a friend who works in Leonardo and they do participate in the Tyffie development (!?).

Long story short, it has not much room for improvement. Space is lacking, cooling is not optimal and there's not even that much of electrical power available for more powerful sensors.

There's the whole PUs to upgrade and it actually needs a newer software and when you sort all of that out, you have the F35 but worse. Just a lot faster (lot of IFs and BUTs).
The EU is moving, it just makes no sense dumping money into this german wonderboy that not even the germans are committing to it.
Capable aircraft, makes it for an ideal interceptor and that is all to be said about it.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 21:10
by sprstdlyscottsmn
nutshell wrote:
Long story short, it has not much room for improvement. Space is lacking, cooling is not optimal and there's not even that much of electrical power available for more powerful sensors..

well that's interesting, and unfortunate.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2020, 20:29
by talkitron
Yeah, thanks for the inside info on the Typhoon internals. On the other hand, the Germans are definitely committed to the Eurofighter as it is the precursor to their fighter with France.

This UK think tank article on the future of UK combat air came out today. The big point is that the UK could save money by having Tempest be an unmanned aircraft. The reasoning is that most manned airframes and airframe hours are used in pilot training; with unmanned you mainly use the airframes on actual operations and so you need fewer airframes. The proposal is for an autonomous plane, rather than a remotely piloted one, because of obvious electronic warfare concerns.

The article has some reasonable insight into the UK budget. It also suggests buying more F-35As (not Bs) and severely cutting the air transport and ISTAR fleets to do so. It obliquely admits that a manned Tempest fighter might not be better than the F-35 of 2040.

https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/co ... ersion.pdf

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2020, 23:14
by marauder2048
talkitron wrote: The reasoning is that most manned airframes and airframe hours are used in pilot training; with unmanned you mainly use the airframes on actual operations and so you need fewer airframes



I'm reminded of reasoning behind the sales pitch for N-UCAS:

2/3rds the acquisition cost of the F-35C and 1/3rd the O&S.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 00:51
by madrat
...at 10X the crash rate.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 01:08
by weasel1962
Its a learning process. MQ-1 accident rates was ~3x MQ-9s, which currently are around accident rates of F-15/16s. What can't be beaten is the zero fatality rate.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 20:09
by basher54321
talkitron wrote:The article has some reasonable insight into the UK budget. It also suggests buying more F-35As (not Bs) and severely cutting the air transport and ISTAR fleets to do so. It obliquely admits that a manned Tempest fighter might not be better than the F-35 of 2040.



Interesting - I was looking at Tempest thinking Yep another F-35 just 20 years later into service myself - and will prepare a hat to eat if wrong!

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 07:07
by weasel1962
Depends on the engines. If it got a pair of F-135s, the tempest would have a distinct advantage from a load perspective.

This would help.
https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... ramme.aspx

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 12:56
by madrat
They make it sound like Tempest would sit in wait... as if technology turning to rust isn't a real phenomenon. What happens when you go to reactivate the fleet and everything fails to activate due to operational neglect?

Sounds like Typhoon 2.0 only without a pilot.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 20:55
by marauder2048
madrat wrote:They make it sound like Tempest would sit in wait... as if technology turning to rust isn't a real phenomenon. What happens when you go to reactivate the fleet and everything fails to activate due to operational neglect?

Sounds like Typhoon 2.0 only without a pilot.


At least for the earlier, smaller conceptions of UCAS, the aircraft were designed to be dismantled and stored
in environmentally controlled crates.

For a larger fighter, you are looking at an environmentally controlled hangar with the aircraft on some sort
of keep-alive, low-power, fluid circulator mode.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 22:59
by nutshell
weasel1962 wrote:Depends on the engines. If it got a pair of F-135s, the tempest would have a distinct advantage from a load perspective.

This would help.
https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... ramme.aspx


If the Tempest mounts 2x F135, then it has to be either a huuuge bird or even funnier looking than the x32.

...and there you go all the 200bln euro we got from the eu's recovery found lol.
We didnt break the bank enough with the JSF!

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 23:35
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Two F135s, with their planned thrust growth, would be "unlimited power"

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2020, 19:46
by boff180
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... c-warfare/

Britain moves forward with its own Typhoon radar primed for electronic warfare

Although Britain and its partners have undertaken substantial work together on common AESA development work through the Euroradar consortium, the Mk2 is effectively a completely different product from the Mk1 forward of the common power supply.


In a joint statement BAE and Leonardo said the multi-functional array radar technology based on AESA was revolutionary will provide game-changing capabilities.

“It has significantly more transmit-receive elements than other radars, making Mk2 the most capable fighter AESA radar in the world, maintaining the same power and precision of traditional radars but also enabling the simultaneous operation of its wide-band electronic warfare functionality,” said the companies.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2020, 14:01
by mixelflick
Very sad the way the whole Typhoon story went down..

With the "help" of the US State Dept/Hillary Clinton, Libya was going down the crapper fast. It was an interesting battlefield, with many aircraft of the so-called 4++ generation either debuting or it was still early in their combat history. While the Rafale and other platforms excelled, Typhoon was an aircraft searching for a mission. With little to no air superiority to achieve, it couldn't play due to being ill equipped in the "strike fighter" role. Translation? It couldn't drop bombs. I think something got rushed into theater, but even then they couldn't designate targets - other platforms had to do that.

Air Combat magazine did a feature about 2 years ago, I remember. You'd swear they were in bed with Typhoon's handlers, because every other sentence was "and now the Typhoon (tranche whatever) has true multi-role capability". It read like a sales brochure. What I could never figure out was why it took so long to get it an AESA/more capable radar. Just weird, especially given that issue was often cited for why it didn't sell.

Which is really too bad, because there's not many aircraft that can hang with the F-22, at least WVR. The excess power, its ability to turn, super-cruise and then when it got Meteor.. Fantastic airframe/kinematics and certainly looks the part. It'll be curious to see how Quatar's Typhoons stack up in service there, especially given all the other types flying shoulder to shoulder..

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2020, 15:56
by spad_s.xiii
I wonder if the new Typhoon-radar will be GaN-based?
Not that many fighter radars that are GaN-based, yet, although it´s been 5 years since Raython and Saab got the Aviation Week´s award for bringing GaN to radar and EW-systems.

Interesting that UK continue to invest a lot into Typhoon instead of buying more F-35:s.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2020, 15:24
by hornetfinn
spad_s.xiii wrote:I wonder if the new Typhoon-radar will be GaN-based?
Not that many fighter radars that are GaN-based, yet, although it´s been 5 years since Raython and Saab got the Aviation Week´s award for bringing GaN to radar and EW-systems.

Interesting that UK continue to invest a lot into Typhoon instead of buying more F-35:s.


GaN is a possibility as there are now several radars that use the technology, even airborne ones. It would create interesting situation as Eurofighter Typhoon with GaN AESA could easily have significantly longer effective range than even the current F-22 while potentially having a lot better EW resistance and LPI features. That would make it a very fearsome interceptor especially with Meteor missiles. Of course that doesn't change the fact that it will have comparatively huge RCS and does not have IFDL/MADL equivalent datalink. It is also (at least currently) far behind when it comes to sensor fusion. But it would make the comparison a lot more interesting.

Of course I'm expecting F-22 and F-35 to get GaN radars at some point in the future. Currently their performance is likely more than good enough in the near future.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2020, 18:16
by hythelday
Austria negotiating sale of 15 Typhoon jets to Indonesia

By Tom Dunlop, September 7, 2020
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/austria ... indonesia/

Tanner (Austira MoD) said she had directed the General Staff to prepare for negotiations with Jakarta.

She said the “exit from the Eurofighter system” is the declared goal and the sale is in the best interest of taxpayers.


And also Austiran original source:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... %2F2223112

Asia Deal: This is how Tanner wants to get rid of Eurofighter

What began two months ago with a mysterious letter from Indonesia is now developing into Austria's best chance of actually getting rid of the unloved Eurofighters: Minister Klaudia Tanner has now replied to her Indonesian counterpart Prabowo Subianto for the first time and announced that she wants to enter into specific sales negotiations with him . At the same time, she ordered her General Staff to prepare everything for the recommended sale. In the direction of Indonesia it was said: "We are happy to accept your interest in purchasing the fifteen Austrian Eurofighters to modernize your air fleet."


Compared to the “Krone”, Klaudia Tanner confirmed her will to get rid of the Eurofighter after only 15 years of operation: “After an intensive examination, the General Staff confirmed the authenticity of the letter and recommended that we take advantage of any sales option,” said Tanner. “Now we are informing Indonesia that we will examine the sale legally and hold talks with everyone involved. That is our responsibility to all taxpayers - and the exit from the Eurofighter system is our declared goal. However, it is also clear that any sale is very complex and difficult due to the Darabos gag agreement. "


Ouch.
Another chance for Gripen, or will Austria get rid of fast jets altogether? Swiss tender seems too far ahead already to make a joint procurement, and then again the Swiss are probably not interested anyway. German ambassador should make another bombastic pitch for more new Eurofighters to replace old Eurofighters, like he did in Finland. :D

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2020, 22:11
by madrat
They cannot save money by selling and buying something new. It's an obvious ploy to disarm their air forces.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 01:32
by spad_s.xiii
Well, they say that their Eurofighters CPFH is 70 000 Euro and Austria can save 2 billion Euro until 2035, if they change to a cheaper aircraft. Also talked about renting. Talks about this has been going on almost since the delivery of the Typhoons.
Maybe they can share with the Swiss outside of office hours: https://www.thelocal.at/20140621/hungar ... rian-skies
"The move to radically cut defense spending and rely on allies increases the likelihood that Austria will experience what happened in Switzerland earlier in the year, when a hijacked Ethiopian plane was forced to land in Geneva - escorted by French fighters, since Swiss military planes only fly during regular office hours."

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 12:02
by hornetfinn
madrat wrote:They cannot save money by selling and buying something new. It's an obvious ploy to disarm their air forces.


Eurofighter Typhoon seems to be rather expensive to maintain and support like they found out in Danish competition (more expensive than either F-35 or Super Hornet). It seems that Austria should've really bought F-16s or JAS Gripens instead of EF Typhoons in the first place as those are definitely cheaper to operate.

I think Austria will find that replacing Typhoons with any real fighter jet is going to be expensive. Maybe they should go for Aermacchi M-346FA or KAI FA-50 which seem to be about half the price of "real" fighter jets and definitely have significantly lower operating costs. Boeing/Saab could also make a fighter version of T-7 Red Hawk. Just put something like Leonardo Grifo-E or Elta ELM-2052 in it to give decent capabilities. I'd put some money on BVR missiles also and even some air-to-ground munitions. Something like MICA or Derby missiles would likely be good alternative in such a small aircraft and give them decent punch.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 12:41
by loke
hornetfinn wrote:
madrat wrote:They cannot save money by selling and buying something new. It's an obvious ploy to disarm their air forces.


Eurofighter Typhoon seems to be rather expensive to maintain and support like they found out in Danish competition (more expensive than either F-35 or Super Hornet). It seems that Austria should've really bought F-16s or JAS Gripens instead of EF Typhoons in the first place as those are definitely cheaper to operate.

I think Austria will find that replacing Typhoons with any real fighter jet is going to be expensive. Maybe they should go for Aermacchi M-346FA or KAI FA-50 which seem to be about half the price of "real" fighter jets and definitely have significantly lower operating costs. Boeing/Saab could also make a fighter version of T-7 Red Hawk. Just put something like Leonardo Grifo-E or Elta ELM-2052 in it to give decent capabilities. I'd put some money on BVR missiles also and even some air-to-ground munitions. Something like MICA or Derby missiles would likely be good alternative in such a small aircraft and give them decent punch.

Hungary and Czech republic have demonstrated that they can do QRA (and training) with 14 Gripen C/D, in a quite affordable manner. Austria should be able to do the same. More expensive than a trainer, but should be possible for a country the size of Austria. The Czech republic defense expenditure was only 1.78 Billion USD in 2015, increased to 2.7B USD in 2018.

Austria: spending was very low at 2.67B USD in 2015, but has increased annually since then and was 3.37B USD in 2018.

Of course Austria may decide to prioritize other things than air force; perhaps a navy...? :D

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/C ... nse-budget

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/A ... nse-budget

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 14:54
by mixelflick
As much as I hate to say it, this is one instance where Gripen might make sense.

If there were more Gripens in service I'd even entertain buying used (if I were Austria). Won't ever happen though, Gripen is a niche aircraft for smaller countries with very finite resources. Will be interesting to see how Brazil does with their E's..

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 16:57
by madrat
mixelflick wrote:As much as I hate to say it, this is one instance where Gripen might make sense.

If there were more Gripens in service I'd even entertain buying used (if I were Austria). Won't ever happen though, Gripen is a niche aircraft for smaller countries with very finite resources. Will be interesting to see how Brazil does with their E's..

Only in the sense of a Gripen-C lease, but even that is not wise when they could lease F-16's and get better capabilities through the MLU programs.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 20:03
by Tiger05
Do the Indonesians realize that the Austrian jets are the less capable Eurofighters on the planet? They have no DASS, no IRST, no AMRAAM capability, etc. Austria deliberately downgraded them in a foolish and short-sighted attempt at cutting cost and yet now complains about the 'limited capabilities' of the jets and wants to get rid of them... :roll: Bare-bones Eurofighters only good for basic air policing missions is what Indonesia would get.

They should instead focus on their current Su-27/30 and F-16 fleets (including the planned F-16V acquisition) IMO. Procuring downgraded Eurofighters, and in such limited numbers, as a 'stopgap' measure makes zero sense.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 23:35
by talkitron
I doubt they are morons. Likely one of Germany, Italy, Spain or the UK will upgrade them before Indonesia takes possession.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2020, 00:30
by Tiger05
They might as well turn to Italy then. They have second-hand Eurofighters Tranche 1 for sale. And unlike Austrian jets, those are actually combat-capable. Would save them a lot of trouble...

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2020, 06:52
by hornetfinn
loke wrote:Hungary and Czech republic have demonstrated that they can do QRA (and training) with 14 Gripen C/D, in a quite affordable manner. Austria should be able to do the same. More expensive than a trainer, but should be possible for a country the size of Austria. The Czech republic defense expenditure was only 1.78 Billion USD in 2015, increased to 2.7B USD in 2018.

Austria: spending was very low at 2.67B USD in 2015, but has increased annually since then and was 3.37B USD in 2018.

Of course Austria may decide to prioritize other things than air force; perhaps a navy...? :D


Very true and thinking more about it, Finland has only very slightly higher military budget than Austria (like 10-20%). Yet we have over 60 F/A-18C/Ds and are replacing them with roughly similar number of new fighters. We also have much larger and better equipped army and we actually have a navy which totally dwarfs Austrian navy... :mrgreen:

Austria seems to have quite a bit larger number of active duty personnel and that's likely where much of their money goes.

Anyway, Austria should definitely be able to have decent sized fighter force even with their current military budget. Of course they should increase their military budget quite significantly. Should be no problem with their economy, although likely difficult politically.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2020, 14:03
by jetblast16
Buy cheap, buy twice :wink:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2020, 18:06
by mixelflick
To me, Typhoon really is the European F-22. But only in the sense it never quite fulfilled its potential, largely owing to missing critical pieces of the equation. In the most obvious case, no AESA and then ultimately getting one too late. Sure, it has obscene excess power, turns on a dime and carries the Meteor (in most cases). But its radar being its main sensor, it seems it keeps coming up short in that dept.

I believe like most here we have entered into a sensor/shooter pardigm shift. Absent the kind of stealth/sensors the F-22 or F-35 have, I can't see it staying relevant for decades to come. Throw in its obscene cost and you have a no win situation for the Typhoon customer expecting it to be their long term solution. Had Typhoon been mature as a platform 15 years ago it would have been a lot more relavent.

Today, not so much...

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2020, 05:15
by charlielima223
@ mixelflick
I would say the Typhoon is Europe's attempt to compete with Flanker and the Eagle. Europe is now trying to catch up to the F-22 or even exceed it in the Tempest and the FCAS.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2020, 09:38
by hornetfinn
I'd say that Eurofighter Typhoon was and still is a marvellous airframe and avionics were very good when it came to service. It's getting AESA at least a decade later than it should've, but then again CAPTOR-M is one of the best (very possibly the best) mechanically scanned radars around. So the need for a new radar has been less pressing than in some other fighter aircraft. Eurofighter also got some important systems like HMD, imaging IRST, sensor fusion system and DVI (Direct Voice Input) earlier than most other modern fighters. However there has been deficiencies in avionics compared to some competitors. Dassault Rafale and Super Hornet (and F-22) have had AESA radars for a long time. Swiss evaluation showed that Rafale was considered quite significantly better in both DCA and OCA missions even with original PESA radar due to quite significantly better overall avionics even though Rafale is more of a multi-role aircraft where EF Typhoon was designed more for air-to-air missions. I think LTE program will make Eurofighter likely the best 4th gen fighter but that should've happened ten years ago.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2020, 13:14
by madrat
If multi-role operations under a Common Airframe was the ultimate goal then the program is fail. The missed the first and foremost important metric of being ready to fulfill the requirement when you enter service in significant numbers. Eurofighter is well beyond its production apex and there is no real significant production on the horizon. Too little too late.

Sure its marvelous but it should have been more marvelous today than it already was largely in 1989. Tempest is their chance to avoid the same pitfall.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2020, 15:59
by mixelflick
charlielima223 wrote:@ mixelflick
I would say the Typhoon is Europe's attempt to compete with Flanker and the Eagle. Europe is now trying to catch up to the F-22 or even exceed it in the Tempest and the FCAS.


That's true: From what I've read, Typhoon was built for a requirement to dispatch with the Fulcrum and Flanker. I don't see where it's an Eagle competitor, even assuming competion for foreign orders. The thing is crazy expensive, much more expensive than the F-15, even the new "Super Eagles" flown by SA and Quatar. Hell for that matter, the F-15EX for USAF will likely be less expensive. And an F-15EX buys you a whole lot more capability IMO, unless your sole objective is WVR dogfights. Even then, I would suggest the AIM-9x levels the playing field.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2020, 07:03
by loke
hornetfinn wrote:Swiss evaluation showed that Rafale was considered quite significantly better in both DCA and OCA missions even with original PESA radar due to quite significantly better overall avionics even though Rafale is more of a multi-role aircraft where EF Typhoon was designed more for air-to-air missions. I think LTE program will make Eurofighter likely the best 4th gen fighter but that should've happened ten years ago.

I am not sure about the claim that Eurofighter will be the "best 4th gen fighter" -- Although the Swiss eval is getting old it revealed a number of flaws in the Eurofighter and I doubt all of them will be corrected. Also, the Rafale has developed quite a lot since then. There is a plan to update the Rafale sensors including the current AESA radar...most likely by switching to GaN. I am sure the new Typhoon radar will probably become better than the new Rafale radar, however will the difference be large enough to compensate for the remaining flaws of the Typhoon? Few people know the answer to this -- however many of those who know do speak Finnish :)

One of the biggest "flaws" of the Typhoon is the high cost, in spite of a decent number of a/c produced. Whereas Dassault just added a new customer in Greece. Another small but significant win for the French.

One big "advantage" the Typhoon has, is of course the kinematic performance including "true" SC. However an Indian official recently revealed that Rafale can SC at mach1.4 with 4 a2a missiles and one drop tank. Not Typhoon performance, but perhaps not as far off as some might imagined...? The same guy also made it clear that although both Typhoon and Rafale was shortlisted in India, the IAF clearly preferred the Rafale to the Typhoon.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2020, 08:43
by weasel1962
If the Austrians do sell the Typhoon to Indonesia, only user to operate it with both Flankers & F-16s.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2020, 11:21
by hornetfinn
loke wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Swiss evaluation showed that Rafale was considered quite significantly better in both DCA and OCA missions even with original PESA radar due to quite significantly better overall avionics even though Rafale is more of a multi-role aircraft where EF Typhoon was designed more for air-to-air missions. I think LTE program will make Eurofighter likely the best 4th gen fighter but that should've happened ten years ago.

I am not sure about the claim that Eurofighter will be the "best 4th gen fighter" -- Although the Swiss eval is getting old it revealed a number of flaws in the Eurofighter and I doubt all of them will be corrected. Also, the Rafale has developed quite a lot since then. There is a plan to update the Rafale sensors including the current AESA radar...most likely by switching to GaN. I am sure the new Typhoon radar will probably become better than the new Rafale radar, however will the difference be large enough to compensate for the remaining flaws of the Typhoon? Few people know the answer to this -- however many of those who know do speak Finnish :)

One of the biggest "flaws" of the Typhoon is the high cost, in spite of a decent number of a/c produced. Whereas Dassault just added a new customer in Greece. Another small but significant win for the French.

One big "advantage" the Typhoon has, is of course the kinematic performance including "true" SC. However an Indian official recently revealed that Rafale can SC at mach1.4 with 4 a2a missiles and one drop tank. Not Typhoon performance, but perhaps not as far off as some might imagined...? The same guy also made it clear that although both Typhoon and Rafale was shortlisted in India, the IAF clearly preferred the Rafale to the Typhoon.


I'm basing that claim on the fact that Eurofighter Typhoon has more thrust, better T/W ratio and larger nose for larger radar and other systems. Problem is that it will happen very, very late and it will likely not generate any new orders. Dassault Rafale is currently (and has pretty much always been) the better all-around fighter aircraft and has had AESA radar for almost a decade. It also seems to have been refreshed technologically much more and more often than EF Typhoon. I also agree that it might well be that the LTE upgrade will also fall short without adequate funding. Then Rafale will likely remain the better fighter aircraft overall and EF Typhoon will always remain the platform with most unfulfilled potential.

I think both Dassault Rafale and EF Typhoon have been very disappointing when it comes to commercial success. There are definitely multiple reasons for this and high cost is likely one of the main ones. Both seem to be very expensive and have often lost to F-16 and F-15E variants due to this. F-16 is likely significantly cheaper than either and it's tough to compete with F-15E variants when it comes to air-to-ground missions and it's no slouch when it comes to air-to-air either. F-15E variants might also be cheaper to buy and possibly even operate due to larger customer base. On the other hand the market for new fighters has been rather slow during the last couple of decades. Best seller have clearly been the Su-30 variants when it comes to export orders.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2020, 15:24
by hornetfinn
Interesting former Eurofighter Typhoon pilot interview. Mind you that he is now acting as Head of Marketing for Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH.

https://hushkit.net/2020/04/09/flying-f ... -klaschka/

This is clearly marketing talk:

Consider today’s threats. The latest surface-to-air missile systems are having their hardware regularly upgraded, are being networked and can change their behaviour almost instantaneously via software-reprogramming. In short, they are constantly evolving, creating a dynamic and challenging threat environment. This means that the advantage of aircraft which use traditional physical stealth technology, which is designed to make the aircraft hard-to-observe by threat radar systems, is eroding. Counter-stealth techniques are on the rise and have been successfully employed as far back as 1993.

This vulnerability against high-end threats with counter-stealth techniques is difficult to address because the basic elements of physical stealth (an aircraft’s skin & surface treatments, internal structure, and configuration) cannot easily be changed. However, in contrast, the Typhoon’s EW systems, which are readily re-programmable, can evolve digitally to maintain the aircraft’s combat advantage even as threats change around it.


Really interesting way of interpreting things... As if EW and physical stealth characteristics are somehow separated from each other. Just a glimpse on radar equations tells us that they go very much hand-in-hand. The radar will always receive physical echos from the physical aircraft and EW system is just trying to interfere with the detection and tracking processes by introducing noise or false echoes which mimic the actual radar signals. So lowering the physical echoes makes a target far more difficult to detect and track no matter what. EW system can further make it more difficult, but nothing stops having both when you design the aircraft for it from the beginning.

Of course next thing he says is this:

How does the Typhoon community generally feel about the F-35?

“Working alongside the F-35 will be the reality of the next decades to come. There are some areas where Typhoon is the benchmark. Exploiting those areas and adding them to the overall capability mix alongside the F-35 will result in quite a lethal fighting force.”


Another interesting take:
What is the biggest myth about the Typhoon?

“Cost. It can be more cost-effective to own, maintain and operate than pretty much anything else in its class. The comparison data is in the public domain if you look in the right places.”

Where? “The data is out there in the public domain. No further comment from Klax here.”


I really wonder what he is referring to here? At least Danish evaluation didn't support this and I don't know of any other real and trustworthy data about operating costs.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2020, 17:38
by timmymagic
hornetfinn wrote:I really wonder what he is referring to here? At least Danish evaluation didn't support this and I don't know of any other real and trustworthy data about operating costs.


The closest you'll get is the UK's recent Project Tytan. Like most things to do with Typhoon its the UK driving it forward. The cost per hour has been dramatically lowered, and is apparently on track to hit the goal of a similar per hour cost as F-16. The benefit to industry and the RAF is the cost savings are re-invested in upgrades and enhancements (with one of the goals of reducing the number of fleets within fleets).

As this is UK funded the other partners will need to pay to get the benefits of the UK's work, apparently Saudi, Qatar and Oman will be getting the benefits from the UK and BAE as part of their support arrangements

https://sldinfo.com/2018/06/the-coming- ... -strategy/

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2020, 14:14
by hythelday
Quadriga award launches Tranche 4 Eurofighter production for Germany
By Craig Hoyle, 12 November 2020

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/qu ... 07.article


Airbus Defence & Space has received a contract to build a Tranche 4 batch of 38 Eurofighters for the German air force, following recent parliamentary approval for the Project Quadriga acquisition.
[...]
Germany had separately signed a contract in June to acquire 110 Captor-E Mk1 AESA radars for use with its existing Tranche 2- and 3-standard combat aircraft.
[...]
“Its technical capabilities will allow full integration into the European Future Combat Air System,” Hoke adds (Airbus Defence & Space chief executive).
[...]
With the Typhoon currently in production for export customers Kuwait and Qatar, the Eurofighter consortium is also anticipating a potential repeat purchase from Spain, which is seeking replacements for its Boeing F-18s.


Those will replace 31 Tranche 1 fighters. Tranche 2 & 3 will be upgraded with AESAs, apparently.

Oh and by the way the contract for those 38 is worth 5,4 billion euros.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2020, 15:13
by mixelflick
The point about Rafale being a more "well rounded" performer is probably spot on, especially if the requirements involve air to everything. Absurd cost though will prevent them from acquiring it in the numbers they want. To do that, they'll probably need to buy a hodge podge of Rafale's, Mig-35's and Tejas II (or III, or whatever they're up to now), LOL.

Every western jet under evaluation just seems like too much $, ditto for the European birds. Unless.... they buy used SH Block II's perhaps, from the US Navy? Some low hour airframes might be attractive, especially considering they'd be carrier capable. That way, India could get rid of their pesky Mig-29K's, or transfer them to fly from land bases.

In the end, they'll probably have to procure most airframes from Russia, build them at home, buy used or .... come to terms with a smaller fleet.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2020, 16:29
by sprstdlyscottsmn
has any nation actually ordered the CFTs for the Typhoon? Seems like that, TVC, and AMK all became a "hey check out ways to upgrade!" that no one bought.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2020, 18:00
by madrat
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:has any nation actually ordered the CFTs for the Typhoon? Seems like that, TVC, and AMK all became a "hey check out ways to upgrade!" that no one bought.


So far its only been mocked up in 2014. There are no working models as far as I can find. There was even talk at one time of an enlarged spine, but it never had any artwork to show what they meant. I assume they were using outline of two-seater to hide extra fuel behind the pilot.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2020, 15:51
by timmymagic
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:has any nation actually ordered the CFTs for the Typhoon? Seems like that, TVC, and AMK all became a "hey check out ways to upgrade!" that no one bought.


CFT's are officially dead. Aerodynamic issues apparently (according to Airbus). TVC was trialled on the ground but would cost a lot to implement for marginal gains (more for fuel efficiency than manoeuverability). The interesting one will be the AMK. It could well make an appearance on the Quadriga Typhoons and Spanish order, Germany in particular may be interested as they did the bulk of the development.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2021, 22:23
by basher54321
Some words on CFTs, AMK and a CGI beast mode (maybe?)

https://theaviationist.com/2021/02/14/e ... -missiles/

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 10:58
by Corsair1963
Britain's Space Command training to send fighter jets to space to destroy enemy satellites

BRITAIN'S fledgling Space Command could soon be sending RAF Typhoon fighter jets to the "edge of space" to rehearse destroying enemy satellites, senior sources revealed yesterday.

“Top Gun” fighter pilots have been selected for training missions aimed at combating Chinese and Russian military and communication satellites in times of war. Simulated exercises are set to get under way before flying training exercises take place. Training flights without missiles would see Typhoon pilots fly to 40,000ft before embarking on a 20,000ft vertical climb. During a real-life attack they would target enemy satellites and release anti-satellite (ASAT) missiles at 60,000ft, before returning.

Russia and China have already developed ground, air and sea-based ASAT missiles capable of destroying GPS and telecomms satellites.

The plans are revealed just two weeks after Air Commodore Paul Godfrey – a seasoned Typhoon
pilot – was appointed as the first head of UK Space Command.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston has warned that while it is still considered “contentious” to talk about space as a military domain, it would be “tantamount to negligence” if the UK armed forces failed to take seriously the threats posed to crucial satellite functions such as communications and GPS navigation.

“A future conflict may not start in space but I am in no doubt it will transition very quickly to space, and it may even be won or lost in space,” he said. “So we have to be ready to protect and, if necessary, defend our critical national interests.

We have already seen nations such as China, Russia and others developing anti-satellite capabilities.”

While the UK does not yet possess anti-satellite missiles, the US has had the technology since the 1980s, when one was fired from a fighter jet to down an old weather satellite.

Russia has now demonstrated two types of space weapons: direct-ascent anti-satellite missiles which launch from the ground, and a space-based system said last year to have been fired from another satellite.

Last year the Pentagon confirmed China already has ground-based missiles that can hit satellites moving in “low Earth orbit”.

RAF sources last night added that while the UK is driving discussion of responsible behaviour in space at the UN, it would be “folly not to explore fully the capabilities required for satellite denial”.


The US’s current SM-3 anti-satellite missiles can be mounted under the wings of RAF Typhoons.

Justin Bronk, research fellow at the RUSI think tank, said: “The benefits of having ASAT based on a ship or plane is that you can fire it from wherever you want.

“It doesn’t take a Typhoon long to reach the equator.”

But even if the UK acquired SM-3s, because of their length they would have to be fitted under the wings of Typhoons which may cause an issue with weight distribution.

Mr Bronk added: “It’s not an insurmountable problem but it certainly makes sense to use Typhoon simulators – where Typhoons fly up to 40,000ft before pulling up to get a zoom climb to 60,000ft – in order to clear the asymmetry issues.”


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/14 ... satellites

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 11:09
by Corsair1963
Why would they want to carry the SM-3 under the wing in the first place??? Seems like the center line would be a "no brainer"....(just saying)

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 18:34
by boff180
Clearance issues with the nose gear, the external tank only just clears the nose gear doors and an SM-3 is longer (I think).

Same thing with the inner-most pylons, they have to limit what is mounted on them due to the main gear behind. Hence why Storm Shadow is mounted on the next pair out.

I note that artists impression showing multiple meteor.... the inner pairs position would foul the main gear too.

Andy

Image

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 21:22
by sprstdlyscottsmn
6 LGBs, no targeting pod, and four empty AMRAAM stations.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 21:56
by boff180
It was an early fit/demo flight by a development aircraft, back then there were also plans for the targeting pod to be fitted on a front shoulder station too but in the end they went with the centreline pylon instead.

I used the shot to show the clearances for the pylons/stores with the undercarriage.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2021, 22:42
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Okay, that's fair.

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2021, 01:42
by Corsair1963
boff180 wrote:Clearance issues with the nose gear, the external tank only just clears the nose gear doors and an SM-3 is longer (I think).

Same thing with the inner-most pylons, they have to limit what is mounted on them due to the main gear behind. Hence why Storm Shadow is mounted on the next pair out.

I note that artists impression showing multiple meteor.... the inner pairs position would foul the main gear too.

Andy

Image



GOOD POINT........